Who could beat Jedi/Sith easily?

[SylasGaunt]

There's no kill like Overkill. Bring out the Chouginga Gurren Lagann and have it beam-spam the points in space-time where the Jedi has been or will be in the near past or future.

Break out the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann for extra cruelty.

[Enigma]

And yet force users routinely dogfight at C fractional velocities.

So do ordinary humans. I don't see how that helps them in hand to hand when they can't move that fast under their own power.

Which is why nothing hurts him, as he transfers all the energy from every blow to the speed force, right?

It's not like you can't surprise a Jedi. Getting the drop on them would give the Flash a significant edge against pretty much anyone but a Jedi Master.

What would also give Flash an edge over a Jedi or Sith is that he can phase himself and has shown phase through his opponent and remove his brain.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Well, sticking with in-universe explanations, killing with the Force goes completely against everything the Jedi hold dear. When Luke used the Force to move his lightsaber around and slaughter a bunch of Noghri he felt a tinge of the Dark Side. Only Sith kill with the Force and they much prefer using lightning or sucking your soul out rather than a quick and relatively painless TK death.

Yarp? If that is the case, then fair enough, it's a good explanation. Come to think of it, I read that book a few years back *grumble grumble*. Still, it means they're definitely not going to use their uber TK powers to take down opponents (other than robots, of course!), so the point, I suppose, is moot.

Luke had a couple months of training under his belt, most Jedi have years. Look at his dismal fight against Vader in TESB, the skill jump in RotJ on Tatooine is mostly due to no other Force users to mess with him (Force users duel both physically and mentally).
The fight vs Vader was also designed to get him to go to the Dark Side. Vader had complete control until Luke went Dark Side fury on him and overwhelmed his defenses, both physical and mental no doubt. Both instances of 'omfg uber Luke' can be chalked up to his sheer raw strength in the Force.

He was skilled enough to do acrobatics with handcuffs on a diving board and grab his lightsabre in mid-air. And using Dark Side fury he overwhelmed a combatant who won all his battles with Dark Side fury. Luke was definitely a highly skilled jedi by that point. 'Self-taught', if you will.

Yes, key word being "letting." Han couldn't do a thing to Vader, or did you miss the part where he reflected Han's blaster attack? Heck, it was probably some kind of revenge on Han for having shot at Vader. A kind of "try it now and see what happens Solo "

The kind of underestimation that could prove dangerous against someone with more firepower. Then again, very few of the combatants mentioned in this thread look like harmless, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerfherders.

*snip stuff about Grievous*

Indeed. Like the Spanish Inquisition, Grievous' main weapons were surprise and fear. However, using those weapons, he did manage to get the drop on 5 jedi masters, and beat all of them. Obviously MC doesn't have the same level of skill as GG, BUT I believe he has enough talent to at least have a snowball's chance in Hell of fighting one mid-level jedi knight. If not him, I imagine that he has an ally with a cloaking shield and an energy sword that would be just perfect for this kind of job...

Also, about the Battle of Genosis, Lucasarts came out a while ago with an explanation for that. The majority of Jedi in the prequels had been letting their combat training slide and learned Form VI lightsaber combat (known as the Diplomat's Way) which excelled at nothing and essentially just gave its practitioners a basic covering of lightsaber combat skills. All the Jedi that died that day were ones who used Form VI, every other survivor used another Form.

Well then, let's hope our gallant Navy SEALs, SPARTAN, wizards, Adeptus Astartes, and miscelleneous others are going against Form VI peaceniks.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Holy Fuck did I mess up those tags. Sorry guys.

[Alexian Cale]

What about the Emperor Reborn? Could he defeat a... uh... Space Marine?

I weep for your mentioning of that collossal undermining of Return of the Jedi. As far as I'm aware, he scours continents and destroys capital ships. He's easily a match for an entire chapter.

Lol sorry for the touchy subject. :p

See, I have no fucking clue -- not a single... ghost of one -- about the power levels in the 40K universe. All I saw was that Space Marines (no idea what they are) are hardcore and would open a can of whoopass on most Jedi and Sith, so I wondered how they'd fare against uber-Sidious.

The Emperor from Dark Empire? He certainly could--he's got enough force powers to crush a planet on his own. The issue with most Jedi versus a marine is that the marine is so big and heavy that I imagine pushing him (or yoinking the bolter) would be on a level of difficulty closer to lifting/tossing the things Dooku and Yoda were doing. Given that seemed to take some concentration, I doubt they could do that AND avoid the bolter shots. I was also presuming the Marines would have numerical superiority. You don't often see too many Jedi in one spot (except that one time they did and a bunch of them got killed somehow on Genosis).

The Emperor from DE, if that's the one you mean, wouldn't have any trouble just liquidating the marine directly. I'm not sure what it would translate into 40k game terms, but his powers are pretty extreme. I'm not sure it was ever settled if it was actually Palpatine, or a clone, or something else, but he's pretty much an ugly, fleshy Death Star. I'm not sure what, if anything, could have killed him if he hadn't basically done himself in.

Thanks. And yeah, DE Sidious was the one I meant.

[mr friendly guy]

Who can beat the Jedi.

How about These guys.

When I saw the Negation Lawbringers and heard their role described, it struck me that they were the "Jedi Knights" of the Negation universe, ie they take up similar roles albeit in a warped manner. That is the resolve disputes, usually by killing those who oppose the Negation and crushing rebellions.

Lawbringer QZTR demonstrates his own version of TK where he simply squashes a troll by "rolling it up" like one would roll up a piece of paper. He most probably won't be able to hit a high level jedi, but after a while he gets frustrated and then makes a giant explosion which covers the whole planet rendering all other life dead, with the Negation symbol emblazoned on the planets surface as a warning (Negation : Lawbringer #1).

[Covenant]

What about the Emperor Reborn? Could he defeat a... uh... Space Marine?

I weep for your mentioning of that collossal undermining of Return of the Jedi. As far as I'm aware, he scours continents and destroys capital ships. He's easily a match for an entire chapter.

Lol sorry for the touchy subject. :p

See, I have no fucking clue -- not a single... ghost of one -- about the power levels in the 40K universe. All I saw was that Space Marines (no idea what they are) are hardcore and would open a can of whoopass on most Jedi and Sith, so I wondered how they'd fare against uber-Sidious.

Ahhh, no history with 40k? They're basically 8 foot tall supermen who can fight for weeks without tire, breathe poison, spit acid, recover from injuries that would kill just about anything else, and they're encased in a ridiculously fancy piece of armor. Their standard weakass sidearm is an assault rifle that probably weighs as much as a large man and fires fully automatic rocket grenades. They're extremely unfair to bring into vs debates, but Jedi are super-elite in the exact opposite way, so they're a real Force vs. Finesse matchup.

Here's a picture of one Large Angry Man, just for reference. These things would probably scare the bejesus out of a Jedi. The real advantage they have in the vs are numbers, a strong enough armor to probably require some Qui-gon style slow cutting to break apart (though if that blast door was any evidence, a direct stab might work, though not kill the marine, even if it got him through one of his two hearts), and those fully automatic rocket-rifles. I'm not that huge of a fan of the marines myself, but few fictional universes have such colorful and varied ground forces as 40k, so it's hard to beat them outside of comicbook heroes.

[Darth Wong]

Looks like a lot of people are making hash out of the subject of this thread, unless the thread author did a really bad job of communicating his intent. We're supposed to be talking about who could beat a Jedi/Sith easily, not who could do it if he's got a whole team behind him, or who could do it if he's lucky, or who could do it if he's planned some kind of ambush based on prior intel gathering and the Jedi/Sith is caught totally unawares, and not someone who might have a chance against a shitty low-end Jedi but not a powerful Jedi or a Sith (and since there are only two real Sith at any given time, you don't get to face low-end ones).

That knocks a lot of competitors off this list, leaving only the uber-powered ones.

[Covenant]

We're supposed to be talking about who could beat a Jedi/Sith easily, not who could do it if he's got a whole team behind him, or who could do it if he's lucky, or who could do it if he's planned some kind of ambush based on prior intel gathering and the Jedi/Sith is caught totally unawares, and not someone who might have a chance against a shitty low-end Jedi but not a powerful Jedi or a Sith (and since there are only two real Sith at any given time, you don't get to face low-end ones).

I'm not sure that's what he stated--and he hasn't been back since to tip us off, but what he said originally that I took to mean 'any ol' Jedi' or by extension 'your average Jedi:'

Some examples of when precog failed are Obi-wan and Darth Maul, he didn't predict Obi-Wan's leap from the pit that cost him his life and we've seen even normal non-force users can get the best of jedi, when Jango lassoed Obi-wan in AOTC on Kamino or the Jedi getting killed by Jango's blasters when jumped up near Count Dooku.

He was giving some examples of precog failing to protect the Jedi, but wasn't restricting it only to the heavy hitters in that example. Granted, we generally don't see a lot of movie-time focused on shitty Jedi, but he said Jedi/Sith not Obi-Wan/Vader. If we're restricting just to those people who could 'easily' solo-battle Vader, Palpatine, or Yoda... then I think some of the more extreme examples that got ripped on earlier for being overkill are probably the ones we'd want to settle on.

[Peptuck]

Well, if we're going for people who could probably deck a Jedi or Sith without much trouble, its hard to get more badass in 40k than the Emperor himself, not to mention high-level Chaos Space Marines, daemons and Daemon Princes.

Though I wonder how the Primarchs would fare against Jedi? The Primarchs are generally People You Don't Fuck With, but from what I've read from the Horus Heresy, they mostly focus on melee combat and don't use active psychic powers, which might give a Jedi a chance.

[NecronLord]

Though I wonder how the Primarchs would fare against Jedi? The Primarchs are generally People You Don't Fuck With, but from what I've read from the Horus Heresy, they mostly focus on melee combat and don't use active psychic powers, which might give a Jedi a chance.

Much the same as with ordinary Space Marines. 'Yank their gun off them, levitate them up into the air. Laugh as they flail about.'

Of course, there's plenty of psykers that should and could have done that to them already... And I've never actually seen Jedi incapacitate anyone that way, they may not be smart enough to think of it, or there might be a reason they don't do it.

[Parallax]

Any Kilowog trained Green Lantern should be able to do it.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

If this indeed is about people who could easily tackle the jedi, my list is about fucked, since I included things I thought had at least a >50% chance of killing the average jedi, ie, ones who could put up a good fight with prep time.

[Ender]

And yet force users routinely dogfight at C fractional velocities.

So do ordinary humans.

Cite an example. Oh wait, there aren't any.

I don't see how that helps them in hand to hand when they can't move that fast under their own power.

Firstly it means they can still react to things.

Secondly, the fact that the flash is moving at fractional C velocities hurts him. Ever hear of time dialtion?

It's not like you can't surprise a Jedi. Getting the drop on them would give the Flash a significant edge against pretty much anyone but a Jedi Master.

So you can only win if you have special set up circumstances. That is not beating them easily, that is getting lucky. Thanks for playing.

[Ender]

So you admit that a distracted Force user won't necessarily notice another enemy bearing down on him? You know, like a co-ordinated, multiple vector ambush by highly-trained military professionals?

So now instead of one indicvidual, you need a whole team with special circumstance a head of time. Do you not grasp the point of this thread? It is one on one, bioth just get dropped in.

Considering that previously I've only heard it prevented the jedi from seeing Palpatine's machinations, and according to this thread it apparently also causes an I.Q. drop and dampens the skills of every jedi everywhere, I'll concede since it apparently makes every example of jedi power in the prequels irrelevent.

So you get called out on being a dishonest little fuck, and then get petulant about it. Awesome.

'Barely trained'? He was already acknowledged as a jedi knight and only a short time later he defeated a Sith Lord in combat.

He had a few months training instead of the years others got was explicetly said to NOT be a Jedi yet. Have you even seen the films or are you going to keep making shit up as you go along?

Alright then, if it's never been defined, it can't exactly be used to defend any argument then, can it? If it might do this that, or the other thing, but maybe not, it kind of hamstrings any discussion of jedi limits, particularly if it (apparently) works whenever there are Sith operating in the galaxy, which would mean the entire fucking timeframe of Star Wars. I mean, there were only two Sith around during Palpatine's rise to power. If this is the case, then I'll concede the argument, since any instance of jedi incompetence can be explained by the shroud and without it they could defeat Silver Age comic book heroes or something.

Awww, did the little baby get caught lying? Yes he did. Is the little baby throwing a fit now? Yes he is.

You tried to make up artificial restrictions and ignored it's presence. Yopu got called out. Anyone with an actual set of testicles would just fess up (actually, they wouldn't have lied in the firstplace, but whatever), but you procede to throw a fit. Nice.

I'm talking about the 5 jedi masters he slaughtered.

Again, lying. 1 master, and that guy again clocked him by throwing things around with TK.

Yes, after letting Han shoot at him a couple times. And he's the only example in the movies of this happening, and in the EU, for every time the jedi do use this tactics, there's a half-dozen times they decide to slice 'n' dice instead.

"It never happens"
It did happen"
"well it doesn't happen enough"

I really wish we could ban people for lying.

So the most powerful Sith to ever exist did it, and then there's dialogue. Not proof that this is the fucking standard response for the average jedi in combat.

So now, with iot shown to occur, we lie about the restrictions on it (Sidious is the most powerful Sith despite him saying Anakin would be more powerful then him) and dismiss the other examples.

The only one off the top of my head is Jango. Admittedly, circumstances helped him, so this is conceded until I can rack my brain for more.

So when pressed to name someone who did it straight up with no special circumstances or help, you name a guy who had both special circumstances and help. Well done.

I won't deny that once in a blue moon a jedi (usually a Sith, actually) with use their abilities to their full extent, but it is certainly not the normal reaction to mano-a-mano combat with other Force users. It only happens infrequently, so either 1. Normal jedi can't use it or 2. they don't. Either way the powers don't come into play, because we're not debating "Sidious versus x", we're debating "generic jedi versus x" and generic jedi die in pretty stupid ways.

You lied or bullshitted in every single response you provided, and now are trying to justify it.

[Ender]

If this indeed is about people who could easily tackle the jedi, my list is about fucked, since I included things I thought had at least a >50% chance of killing the average jedi, ie, ones who could put up a good fight with prep time.

That and you had to lie. I think that one is rather important.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

I think that a fair number of people using magic could probably manage it, since powerful magic users tend to be wankishly extreme.

For example:

High Mages like Tayschrenn in the Malazan Book of the Fallen, who can blow the top several feet off of a city wall with a single spell, could make a Jedi go boom. From the same universe, people like Rake, Brood, Envy and Icarium, who are not gods only by virtue of a technicality.

The evil former-Kencyrath dudes in the Godstalker Chronicles, if only by virtue of the fact that they're unkillable (in the first two books anyway. I haven't read the others yet).

Doctor Strange.

High end Dresdenverse Wizards like Ebenezer could manage a large area attack easily, or somebody like Ramirez, and his 'go away' blasts.

Individuals like Crescens in Gold Digger are described as being 'more than a match for a Star Destroyer'. If that's taken at face value, not as hyperbole (the 'narrator' was, IIRC, a scifi fan before being sent far back in time. Maybe she frequented SD.net? ), that's freakishly powerful by most standards.

Some WHFB wizards can get hills and so on to get up and jump on people. Or, in the case of Orcs, get one of their gods to stomp on enemies.

[OmegaGuy]

And yet force users routinely dogfight at C fractional velocities.

So do ordinary humans.

Cite an example. Oh wait, there aren't any.

I think he was subtly making fun of your terminology. "C-fractional" means a fraction of c, even if it is a very small fraction.

[Covenant]

Are those C-Fractional dogfights in the EU? I never thought the stuff we saw in the movies was moving that fast.

[Shrykull]

I'd be more comfortable putting my money on eldar farseers, warlocks or even harlequins, who seem to have pretty much the same strengths (agility, ranged unnatural powers, swordplay, precognition) in a one on one fight, but with generally greater precognition.

The thing with fantasy magic users is their magic is very slow. Jedi can use their powers in the blink of an eye, while someone casting a magic missle has to wave his hands go through the thought process and say the words, by then his neck would be snapped, remember that magic users usually lose to mortal warriors, they are physically weak, never mind against jedi.

[Ender]

So do ordinary humans.

Cite an example. Oh wait, there aren't any.

I think he was subtly making fun of your terminology. "C-fractional" means a fraction of c, even if it is a very small fraction.

Seeing as how he used the term first, that makes him even more stupid.

Are those C-Fractional dogfights in the EU? I never thought the stuff we saw in the movies was moving that fast.

Yes, and the ROTS novel - again a part we didn't see.

[Peptuck]

I'd be more comfortable putting my money on eldar farseers, warlocks or even harlequins, who seem to have pretty much the same strengths (agility, ranged unnatural powers, swordplay, precognition) in a one on one fight, but with generally greater precognition.

The thing with fantasy magic users is their magic is very slow. Jedi can use their powers in the blink of an eye, while someone casting a magic missle has to wave his hands go through the thought process and say the words, by then his neck would be snapped, remember that magic users usually lose to mortal warriors, they are physically weak, never mind against jedi.

Powerful magic users typically tend to take steps to counteract these weaknesses. Contingency, Spell Sequencer, Quicken Spell, plus a myriad of spells intended to defend against melee attacks or rectify comparative physical weaknesses.

Not to mention what happens when one gets to spellcasters that have decided mortality is outdated; most Jedi abilities are going to fall flat in the face of a lich or vampire spellcaster.

Force Lightning? lol electricity immunity. Choke? Undeath means you don't need to breathe. Breaking the neck? A mild annoyance.

[Dominus]

The thing with fantasy magic users is their magic is very slow. Jedi can use their powers in the blink of an eye, while someone casting a magic missle has to wave his hands go through the thought process and say the words, by then his neck would be snapped, remember that magic users usually lose to mortal warriors, they are physically weak, never mind against jedi.

To be sure, the Eldar are not 'fantasy magic users'. What NecronLord speaks of are the Eldar of Warhammer 40k, not the elves of Warhammer Fantasy. The difference lies in the fact that the Eldar of 40k are a consummately psychic (that is to say, their entire race is comprised of psykers) society. They can certainly call upon and their psychic powers 'in the blink of an eye,' and no hand-waving or convoluted reciting is necessary. And they're far from physically weak--I believe there is even an instance of a Warlock felling a Space Marine in Terminator armor in single combat.

[Ford Prefect]

In one on one combat, there are many characters that could take out a Jedi; though not all Jedi are made equal, of course, so saying 'Jedi' or 'Sith' is pretty hard. Of course, when I think 'Jedi', I think people like Obi Wan, and that's who gets to show off in the movies, so I'll stick with them.

At the very low end, I'd think that a Space Marine from Warhammer 40,000 could do it, depending on how clever they are. In terms of their Power Armour, the only particular feat of durability I recall is taking a hail of autocannon rounds from an attack helicopter equivalent while protecting a woman. 'Autocannon' is a fairly broad term in 40k, and beyond 'large calibre with very high rate of fire', I couldn't say for certain that it was 20mm, 30mm, or more or less. If anything, I could not believe that a Battle Brother could take it out in the open, even with bolter on full auto. Just your normal booby trapping the terrain is probably not going to work, even with their inordinately powerful grenades, as a Jedi worth their salt should see it coming. Without extra equipment, I can't really see your normal Astartes putting together the sort of building collapsing building plan I can envisage.

However, a Space Marine veteran is a different matter. Not only are they just plain better than your bog standard Marine, their equipment is more appropriate; not just power blades, but also things like plasma pistols set to 'instant cremation', or boltguns with built in meltas (which depending on the type can be wide angle microwave projectors). Above that there are various psykers and daemon-things; Imperial Guard battle-psykers have been noted as capable of obliterating main battle tanks, and then we have Cherubael, a daemonhost who once grabbed an Ogryn (probably on the order of ten feet tall) and threw him into the air so hard that he didn't come down for a quarter of an hour.

Outside of Warhammer 40,00, I suppose you can't look beyond some characters from the TYPE-MOON universe. While some are horrific overkill, I can't look past the fact that the character Gilgamesh seems specifically designed to overcome Jedi, what with being ableto rain down hundreds upon hundreds of legendary swords at a click of the fingers; he also has Enuma Elish which is a 'sword' that does some funky stuff with spacetime and causes it to collapse, like running the artist's eraser across the universe. Of course, Gil is also supremely arrogant, and while he'll be less inclined to hold back on someone who isn't King Arthur, his arrogance could be exploited. And speaking of King Arthur, her Excalibur could ruin a Jedi's day, given it can emit a beam large enough to engulf entire skyscrapers.

TYPE-MOON happens to be pretty mad in terms of power though, so choosing Epic Spirits or Dead Apostle Ancestors from there feels pretty cheap.

[NecronLord]

I'd be more comfortable putting my money on eldar farseers, warlocks or even harlequins, who seem to have pretty much the same strengths (agility, ranged unnatural powers, swordplay, precognition) in a one on one fight, but with generally greater precognition.

The thing with fantasy magic users is their magic is very slow. Jedi can use their powers in the blink of an eye, while someone casting a magic missle has to wave his hands go through the thought process and say the words, by then his neck would be snapped, remember that magic users usually lose to mortal warriors, they are physically weak, never mind against jedi.

Fortunately, as has been said, these guys aren't fantasy magic users. They have the gloss of them, but their typical abilities have the same casual feel as force powers. Even warlocks have been seen (Farseer) to fell, if not kill (having a whole army of cultists with you does distract your enemies from ensuring you're dead) chaos space marines in hand to hand. They wield swords that are essentially lightsabers, but with more momentum behind them, as there's a solid weapon in there too, with inhuman proficiency.

They're the leaders of a spacefaring race millions of years old, whose philosophy is very much quality over quantity.

They too can use their powers 'in the blink of an eye' have better precognition. And they carry guns. Guns they can aim with their own far better and always on precog.