Columbus Day

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-10-09 10:29am

I really don't think that Columbus screwed the environment all that much with his travels.

Who said anything about screwing? He's right that the Spanish conquest had a big ecological impact; the Americas wouldn't have wild horses if it weren't for the ones imported by the Conquistadores.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-10-09 10:38am

Bounty wrote: Who said anything about screwing? He's right that the Spanish conquest had a big ecological impact; the Americas wouldn't have wild horses if it weren't for the ones imported by the Conquistadores.

Well, hongi did:

Hongi wrote:So not only did he herald in a new era of colonialism, he was also a cross-ecological explorer...who helped screw up the environment. Yay.

I'm far from denying there was a big ecological impact. I've just finished my sandwich with cheese, ham and tomatoes, after all

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-10-09 11:26am

Flagg wrote:I was taught that bogus "discovered the world was round" bullshit. Of course everyone who was in the least bit educated already knew that looong before Columbus was even born. Incidentally, the story about the learned people of his time mocking him is pretty true. He insisted that the Earth was about 1/3 smaller than they had calculated. They were pretty much correct and if it hadn't been for North and South America being here, he'd have died from starvation.

America didn't just "happen" to be there to save Columbus' ass. The man had done a very careful and meticulous study of the currents of the Atlantic Ocean. He determined, correctly, that there was a landmass roughly 3000 miles west of Europe. His mistake was assuming this landmass was Asia, and that therefore everyone was wrong about Asia being 10,000 miles west of Europe.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2007-10-09 11:42am

I was taught that bogus "discovered the world was round" bullshit.

WAT?

So who was Magellan then?

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-10-09 11:47am

Stas Bush wrote:
I was taught that bogus "discovered the world was round" bullshit.
WAT? So who was Magellan then?

Which would also be bullshit. Magellan proved what everyone already knew.

Redleader34 · Post by **Redleader34** » 2007-10-09 12:09pm

The greeks proved the world was round with the tower geometric experment. Shadows prove we are on the surface of the sphere. Ships also prove the world is round, as they seem to dissapear the further we go from shore.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-10-09 12:21pm

Redleader34 wrote:The greeks proved the world was round with the tower geometric experment. Shadows prove we are on the surface of the sphere. Ships also prove the world is round, as they seem to dissapear the further we go from shore.

Their proofs were more sophisticated than that; as early as Aristotle there was undeniable proof, through astronomy and mathematics, that the Earth was a sphere (and not just a curved surface, which is all the horizon argument proves). They even had the planet's size right within at worst 20% of the real number.

(the idea of spherical Earth must've been a real mindfuck for a civilization that didn't know the concept of gravity. How the hell do the oceans stay in place?)

It's also a myth that the Catholic Church had a flat Earth doctrine - some of it's theologians were falt-earthers, but it never actively opposed the theory as far as I'm aware and a spherical Earth appears in medieval textbooks and maps. Magellan's expedition drove the final nail in the coffin by actually going out and seeing for himself, but it was hardly a revolutionary concept.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2007-10-09 12:22pm

Adrian Laguna wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
I was taught that bogus "discovered the world was round" bullshit.
WAT? So who was Magellan then?
Which would also be bullshit. Magellan proved what everyone already knew.

Wasn't Magellan's voyage specifically to prove it was possible to sail completely around the world? Or was that just the end result?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2007-10-09 12:27pm

Which would also be bullshit. Magellan proved what everyone already knew.

Yeah, he just made a practical round-the-world voyage, but if that's ascribed to Columbus, what the hell of bogus history are people being taught?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-10-09 12:30pm

Stas Bush wrote:
Which would also be bullshit. Magellan proved what everyone already knew.
Yeah, he just made a practical round-the-world voyage, but if that's ascribed to Columbus, what the hell of bogus history are people being taught?

Blame Washington irving; I think he's the one who came up with that myth.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2007-10-09 02:41pm

Stas Bush wrote:
Which would also be bullshit. Magellan proved what everyone already knew.
Yeah, he just made a practical round-the-world voyage, but if that's ascribed to Columbus, what the hell of bogus history are people being taught?

It seems to be a peculairity of American schooling. Some form of continental nationalism. Columbus, because he happened to discover the Americas, is One Of Us, and so he must have done this big momentous thing, not some silly Portugese person.

Kanastrous · Post by **Kanastrous** » 2007-10-09 03:06pm

Adrian Laguna wrote:
Which would also be bullshit. Magellan proved what everyone already knew.

Magellan's voyage proved what everybody in Europe hoped, which was the existence of a direct water passage from the Atlantic to the Pacific Oceans. Until his scouts found the strait, people had been hoping the passage existed, thought it was probably in the wrong place, and knew nothing at all about it.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2007-10-09 03:24pm

Bounty wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
Which would also be bullshit. Magellan proved what everyone already knew.
Yeah, he just made a practical round-the-world voyage, but if that's ascribed to Columbus, what the hell of bogus history are people being taught?
Blame Washington irving; I think he's the one who came up with that myth.

Yeap, he made up alot of bullshit.

Metatwaddle · Post by **Metatwaddle** » 2007-10-09 04:18pm

Flagg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Zixinus wrote:Quick question regarding Colombus: how did he treat the natives? Was he a conquerer or an explorer?
Columbus once ordered his men to cut the babies out of a group of mothers' wombs and crush their skulls while the mothers lay bleeding to death in agony, as a public demonstration to remind the natives of who's in charge.
But if you mention this, then you're racist against Italians.

So it's actually true that Italian-Americans loudly stick up for Columbus? I thought that only happened in The Sopranos.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2007-10-09 05:08pm

Discombobulated wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Columbus once ordered his men to cut the babies out of a group of mothers' wombs and crush their skulls while the mothers lay bleeding to death in agony, as a public demonstration to remind the natives of who's in charge.
But if you mention this, then you're racist against Italians.
So it's actually true that Italian-Americans loudly stick up for Columbus? I thought that only happened in The Sopranos.

Yeap, it's true. In fact there really are fights between Italians and Native Americans during Columbus Day parades.

Metatwaddle · Post by **Metatwaddle** » 2007-10-09 05:12pm

Well, damn. That's pretty fucking stupid. In a more rational world, I'd expect Italians to regard him as somewhat of an embarrassment.

I thought the only people sticking up for Columbus would be the Rush Limbaughs of the world.

Mordicant · Post by **Mordicant** » 2007-10-11 07:05pm

Animanics- The Ballad of Magellen

I love this show.