Informing on lawbreakers: Good or Bad?

[Lagmonster]

I was giving some thought to the negative associations to informing authorities about people who do something wrong, after having been loudly told by a neighbour this weekend that I was a 'coward' for threatening to call the cops on his beer fest (which I didn't even know was happening until it loudly spilled out of his house at 3 am and onto my lawn) instead of 'handling it like a man', the implications of which I can only laugh at for its sheer idiocy.

I'm reminded of the law of the schoolyard, which says that telling the teacher makes you a coward. Now, this is the kind of thing that is more likely spread by bullies than victims, since that's the kind of mentality bullies want you to have so they can continue to get away with it. The same goes for gangs; if you tell the authorities, you're a traitor who receives the maximum punishment possible. Mob stories are rife with the famous "murder the stoolie's entire family to send a message to others" and other acts of ludicrously excessive violence. And I've heard more than one story of parents who shelter their kids from the law despite knowing that they're violent offenders.

It's impossible to even find a WORD synonymous with informing authorities about crimes that isn't harsh: Stool Pigeon, squealer, blabbermouth, fink, rat, tattletale. Even the job title "Narc" has become an insult to signify someone who thinks helping 'the man' is more important than friendship or brotherhood.

So I brought this up again with a friend, who after a while said that he could never call the cops on his own family no matter what, and that keeping the trust of a loved one was more important than honouring the law. I admit that I find it hard to imagine fingering, say, my wife for a crime, and while I don't think that I have the right to pick and choose which crimes are serious enough to get the law involved, I can't even begin to think I'd turn her in for, say, Alabama dildo ownership laws. But that's more a discussion of whether one thinks a law is just than whether you feel okay 'betraying' a friend or family member who does something wrong, be it to inform mom and dad that they broke a vase or call the cops because they beat up the neighour kid.

Would you call the police on your sibling, partner, friend or child if they had hurt someone? What if they had only stolen a pack of gum from a corner store? What if instead, they were 14 and had snuck out to go drinking, smoke pot and have sex? What difference does it make to you if they're a family member versus, say, a coworker?

[FSTargetDrone]

It's impossible to even find a WORD synonymous with informing authorities about crimes that isn't harsh: Stool Pigeon, squealer, blabbermouth, fink, rat, tattletale. Even the job title "Narc" has become an insult to signify someone who thinks helping 'the man' is more important than friendship or brotherhood.

How about "tipster"? As in, "anonymous tipster"?

Would you call the police on your sibling, partner, friend or child if they had hurt someone? What if they had only stolen a pack of gum from a corner store?

It really depends what the crime is. If my partner is involved in a serious matter, I would really talk with her and tell her that the best thing to do is to speak to the police. If it was a case of petty shoplifting, I would probably mail the value of the item to the store. If it happened again and again, I would reconsider and again, talk to the person about his or her stealing. I don't know, I'd think about it before doing anything immediately, but I wouldn't let it pass, by any means.

[Lancer]

Well, calling the police is better for you than the alternatives, which would be to roll over and die for the drunkdards, or chase them off your lawn with a shotgun.

Ignore the idiots who call you a narc, if they didn't want the police involved, they shouldn't have spilled over onto your lawn.

Dealing with the hypothetical; they did something that doesn't directly involve me and isn't particularly egregious, I'd advise them to rectify the situation before I do it for them. If they don't like that, they shouldn't have gotten me involved.

[DPDarkPrimus]

A "stop snitchin" thread? Oh lord.

[Lagmonster]

A "stop snitchin" thread? Oh lord.

I presume you have an opinion on the subject?

I'm assuming that most people here will say that they wouldn't rat out, say, their kid for a victimless crime like pot use, but would turn in a murderer, even though I know there are people out there who will fink on anything that moves and people who would die before they'd turn in a friend for anything.

[General Zod]

I presume you have an opinion on the subject?

I'm assuming that most people here will say that they wouldn't rat out, say, their kid for a victimless crime like pot use, but would turn in a murderer, even though I know there are people out there who will fink on anything that moves and people who would die before they'd turn in a friend for anything.

For me it's dependent on whether or not anyone else is harmed. If it's something like petty-shoplifting, then it's probably not worth my time when most companies have their own security and methods of dealing with them. Smoking pot or having sex or something is also largely only harmful to the users, if at all. Home burglary, car theft or murder though? That's a whole different story when actual individuals (as opposed to nebulous companies) are being harmed besides the person committing said crime. Something like a noisy party depends purely on how irritable I am that night.

[Lancer]

I probably would report a kid for using pot if it happened near my property, if just for stinking up the place, especially if he called me a narc. However, I can be incredibly vindicative and spiteful, so perhaps that is impacting my response.

[Knife]

All things being equal, mostly meaning they were just laws, I'd turn my kid or other loved ones in if they violated the law. Especially if they violated a law and came to me for help, ie: making me an accomplace after the fact.

For example, say your brother shop lifted something and you found out. I would 'rat' him out to mom and dad, or if we were both older, I'd tell the store.

If my mom did a hit and run and I found out, I'd call the cops on here after talking to her and making sure she had a lawyer and all that. But truth be told, all the usually 'rat' scenarios are by default designed to help the criminal and not the accomplace. As that would be accomplace, I'd have to take my liability and my responsibilities into account to make my decision.

[Kanastrous]

I probably would report a kid for using pot if it happened near my property, if just for stinking up the place, especially if he called me a narc. However, I can be incredibly vindicative and spiteful, so perhaps that is impacting my response.

I'd report his ass if he refused to share.

[salm]

On most terms what General Zod said.

The party noise, however, i can take. I don´t think it´s bad if people have a party every once in a while. This, of course will cause noise, and i could call the police but i don´t. This shouldn´t happen too frequently of course but i´ve lived in several different apartments now with lots of neighboring apartments and this has never happened. The community staircase has been littered with glass shards, cigarette buds and general party trash a couple of times but the responsible people usually clean up the next day, so meh, fuck it.

[Kanastrous]

Routinely depriving me of sleep after 10PM on anything other than a Friday or Saturday night is a good way to make a dedicated enemy.

[General Zod]

On most terms what General Zod said.

The party noise, however, i can take. I don´t think it´s bad if people have a party every once in a while. This, of course will cause noise, and i could call the police but i don´t. This shouldn´t happen too frequently of course but i´ve lived in several different apartments now with lots of neighboring apartments and this has never happened. The community staircase has been littered with glass shards, cigarette buds and general party trash a couple of times but the responsible people usually clean up the next day, so meh, fuck it.

I've never had any reason to call the cops before on parties per se, but back in July you had retards in my neighborhood setting off fire works every fucking night for a month. It was clearly illegal and while I would have loved to report their asses it would have been worthless since they'd be gone by the time the police did anything. So yeah, purely depends on how irritable I am and whether or not it would accomplish anything.

[Soontir C'boath]

All things being equal, mostly meaning they were just laws, I'd turn my kid or other loved ones in if they violated the law. Especially if they violated a law and came to me for help, ie: making me an accomplace after the fact.

Bingo. There's always a church confession box for these kinds of things.

I wouldn't report something unless it was related to me. It's all about self-preservation.

[Nathaniel]

It seems reasonable to report someone if they are likely to cause harm to other people whether directly or indirectly. If someone is doing something malicious to you, however, you're probably justified in screwing up their life as far as the law allows.

[Lagmonster]

I wouldn't report something unless it was related to me. It's all about self-preservation.

What, you're in a position to have to worry about actual physical revenge? I guess that's why all those Report-A-Crime numbers go to such great lengths to remind people that their whistle-blowing is perfectly anonymous.

I'm of two faces; I tend to agree with people who say that it's a citizen's duty to report crimes, but in practicality I find I evaluate offenses on a massive sliding scale which, yes, does differ depending on whether it's a family member or a guy I don't know. By way of example, I saw some Somali woman driving with a young boy in her lap and no seatbelt on either of them, but it was easier to mutter disdainfully than to try to read the license plate and call the local police number to make an official report.

[Covenant]

There should be no expectation of silence from me for an illegal deed. I'm a fairly hardass subject on this. I don't do illegal things, and if I did, I'd expect to have people try to catch me.

However, the examples you give are all pretty mundane. Shoplifting a pack of gum is wrong, but I'd prefer to punish it by taking the thing away and explaining what the compulsion to shoplift is, how to avoid doing it, and the penalties for keeping at it. If they hurt someone, however, then I'd probably consider it. It would depend on the degree. If it was just a school fight or something, I wouldn't bother, since that happens a lot and 'hurt' probably isn't that bad.

[General Zod]

By way of example, I saw some Somali woman driving with a young boy in her lap and no seatbelt on either of them, but it was easier to mutter disdainfully than to try to read the license plate and call the local police number to make an official report.

There's also the fact that minor infractions like that are ridiculously easy to cover up or otherwise avoid and very difficult to prove who did what.

[Metatwaddle]

[quote="Lagmonster"It's impossible to even find a WORD synonymous with informing authorities about crimes that isn't harsh: Stool Pigeon, squealer, blabbermouth, fink, rat, tattletale. Even the job title "Narc" has become an insult to signify someone who thinks helping 'the man' is more important than friendship or brotherhood.[/quote]Sometimes "whistleblower" is used in business or government, and that's not derogatory. I don't know of any positive terms that are used in a more everyday context though.

I admit that I've never really outgrown the "don't be a rat" mentality. I can't see myself reporting an immediate family member or my boyfriend for doing something illegal, unless it was really egregious, like a violent crime or a major theft. I certainly wouldn't report them for a victimless crime like drug use or underage alcohol consumption.

In my current life as a university student, a more realistic question would be whether I would turn in a fellow student for cheating or plagiarism. I would certainly do so. I wouldn't turn them in for underage drinking, of course, because I don't really care who drinks and who doesn't, and anyway that would make me a bit of a hypocrite.

[Metatwaddle]

Goddamn. Can someone fix my quote tags, please?

[DPDarkPrimus]

A "stop snitchin" thread? Oh lord.

I presume you have an opinion on the subject?

I'm assuming that most people here will say that they wouldn't rat out, say, their kid for a victimless crime like pot use, but would turn in a murderer, even though I know there are people out there who will fink on anything that moves and people who would die before they'd turn in a friend for anything.

Shit like a kid stealing some gum or a person smoking pot - it's perfectly acceptable for individuals to step in and discipline the individual without involving law enforcement.

I'd love to see someone flag down a police car because their 6-year old brother took a candy bar. The cop would probably make them put it back and give the older sibling a dirty look, like "You couldn't handle this yourself?"

[Kanastrous]

Hell, the LAPD doesn't like having to respond to reports of gunfire. If you flagged them down for a candy-bar theft, they'd probably arrest your ass.

Or maybe just kick it, a little.

[Turin]

Oddly enough, brianeyci and I just had a conversation about this last week in the BAMF of the week thread. I'm not sure whether or not this topic was inspired by that discussion, but I think this last bit in that thread sums up my thoughts on the topic:

Let me be clear that I'm not the sort of guy who is always hopping up and down going "woo woo crime!" But we have certain neighborhoods in this city... where we've got a big uptick in violent crime, and the community's tolerance of the thugs in their midst is a big part of that.

That being said, the reason that I feel this way is because of the large-scale consequences of not turning in violent criminals. Give me the same scenario with a minor crime (kid stealing a candybar) or a victimless crime (smoking pot), and my opinion changes in magnitude with the crime committed. Certainly I'd intervene in the case of the candybar, because you've got an opportunity to teach the kid a lesson... but that lesson doesn't have to be "off to juvie with you!"

As for a family member who's committed a serious / violent crime, I'd feel awful and probably lose a lot of face in my family, but they have to face the consequences of their actions the same as everyone else. I guess I'd try to give them a chance to turn themselves in, but after that, well, they had their chance.

[Metatwaddle]

That sounds exactly like what RedImperator has told me about the neighborhoods in Philadelphia where he worked as a teacher: that nobody will talk to the police under nearly any circumstances, partly for fear of retaliation by the gangs whose members are being reported, but also partly because they're cynical about the effectiveness of the police or any "outsiders" who come in and try to fix things in their neighborhood, and would rather just not deal with the police at all. And given the way poor urban blacks are treated by police in much of the US, it's hard to blame them. (I'm sure if he were here he could explain it better, but he's on leave from the board until around Thanksgiving, or whenever he finishes the second draft of The Humanist Inheritance. If you're interested in his progress, read his blog.)

Seeing how screwed up those neighborhoods are is one of the best arguments in favor of a cultural mentality where people aren't afraid to go to the police. Unfortunately, it may be all but impossible to fix in places like North and West Philly. You can't change that sort of thing from the outside.

[RogueIce]

It really depends. For small stuff I wouldn't turn them in. I might have them go take the candybar back to the store or whatever. So far as pot is concerned, I don't care if people I know do it, so long as they aren't anywhere near me at the time.

Now if I were a cop and they did something illegal and they told me about it, or if they decided to light up a joint in front of me, I'd have little choice in the matter.

As for more serious stuff like burglary, robbery, assault, murder, whatever...the most "leniency" I'd give anyone, even family, who confessed to such would be an offer to drive them to the police station to turn themselves in. Otherwise, I'm reporting it.

[salm]

I'd love to see someone flag down a police car because their 6-year old brother took a candy bar. The cop would probably make them put it back and give the older sibling a dirty look, like "You couldn't handle this yourself?"

I know a person that will call the cops if you park the wrong way. Here at least, if you park a the side of the road you have to place your car with the front in the driving direction. Now, if you happen to park the other way round because you came form the other direction and furthermore happen to park the car in front of said individuals house you can be sure that she´s going to call the cops on you.