Christianity makes sense to me.

[Basic Model]

Oh - my family...my husband and children are an enormous blessing, which frankly, I don't think I could ever deserve.

Bringing up kids isn't easy, but I do realise how blessed I am. I can't use the word 'lucky' - though I can appreciate that's how others might describe my state.

It's simply my opinion and belief that no human, no 'thing' can fill the gap in me which was designed to be filled by The More.

I feel that every time I post on here, I'm annoying people more and more. I don't want to continue in that vein, and so this will be my last post on this topic. Previously, I've wavered between leaving things as they were, and wanting to respond to a point made by others.

Again I will say thanks for your time, and your opinions.

[Stark]

It amuses me how many of these 'can't live without baseless beliefs' people are ALSO such passive-aggressive wankers.

Do you understand how offensive your behaviour is? The constant 'oh I'm offending people' (based on nothing), the 'I make a bunch of claims' (based on nothing), the 'inane forced humility-superiority' (based on nothing)? Holy shit, I'm noticing a pattern in there somewhere. Your constant backhanded accusations of intolerance (baseless), ignorance (baseless) and 'annoyance' (baseless) are far more irritating than your beliefs.

The mewling, pathetic 'oh noes I don't want to offend you guys I'll run away which neatly avoids the necessity to actually act like an adult and support my views with more than wishy-washy bullshit' is laughable. People have taken the time to reply to your posts and raise objections, and you don't care. Your self-destructive attitudes and codependent personality are an interesting insight into born-agains, of course.

Doesn't it ever bother these people that they'll cook up any line of bullshit to escape discussion? We can discuss this shit all day, but oh noes, it might 'annoy' us. Because being a mealy-mouthed, point-dodging, zero-content faux-humility person isn't annoying.

[Zablorg]

It amuses me how many of these 'can't live without baseless beliefs' people are ALSO such passive-aggressive wankers.

Do you understand how offensive your behaviour is? The constant 'oh I'm offending people' (based on nothing)...

I don't think such people would get themselves into a situation where they could be accused of offending people, much less admitting it:?

[General Zod]

It amuses me how many of these 'can't live without baseless beliefs' people are ALSO such passive-aggressive wankers.

Do you understand how offensive your behaviour is? The constant 'oh I'm offending people' (based on nothing)...

I don't think such people would get themselves into a situation where they could be accused of offending people, much less admitting it:?

They're called trolls. And/or attention whores.

[Lagmonster]

I feel that every time I post on here, I'm annoying people more and more. I don't want to continue in that vein, and so this will be my last post on this topic. Previously, I've wavered between leaving things as they were, and wanting to respond to a point made by others.

You clearly sensed when you first posted this thread that you were metaphorically getting out of the safari jeep and kicking the lions. I presume you can guess what that means, metaphorically? You out and out challenged members to 'let you stay on the forum', which is the internet equivalent of standing up in public and stating a volatile opinion. So what did you want to have happen? Validation of your suspicions by kicking you out? Actual argument? A mass change of heart and acceptance? A round of mockery followed by your leaving in disgust?

[Adept]

How did you end up finding this website, Basic Model, if you don't mind me asking?

[Darth Wong]

I feel that every time I post on here, I'm annoying people more and more. I don't want to continue in that vein, and so this will be my last post on this topic. Previously, I've wavered between leaving things as they were, and wanting to respond to a point made by others.

You clearly sensed when you first posted this thread that you were metaphorically getting out of the safari jeep and kicking the lions. I presume you can guess what that means, metaphorically? You out and out challenged members to 'let you stay on the forum', which is the internet equivalent of standing up in public and stating a volatile opinion. So what did you want to have happen? Validation of your suspicions by kicking you out? Actual argument? A mass change of heart and acceptance? A round of mockery followed by your leaving in disgust?

I suspect this individual was secretly looking for some kind of validation of her belief system. Perhaps she was hoping that we would respond in an incredibly hateful fashion, thus validating her belief that people without Christianity are necessarily damaged goods.

[Darth Wong]

Oh - my family...my husband and children are an enormous blessing, which frankly, I don't think I could ever deserve.

Yes yes, we are all familiar with Christianity's basic message of your own worthlessness.

Bringing up kids isn't easy, but I do realise how blessed I am. I can't use the word 'lucky' - though I can appreciate that's how others might describe my state.

I'm "blessed" too, yet I routinely say that the Bible is a load of bullshit. And unlike you, I never went through a "shallow hedonist" period.

It's simply my opinion and belief that no human, no 'thing' can fill the gap in me which was designed to be filled by The More.

This "gap" of yours is like a drug addict's withdrawal symptoms; it is created by the same thing you use to fill it.

I feel that every time I post on here, I'm annoying people more and more. I don't want to continue in that vein, and so this will be my last post on this topic. Previously, I've wavered between leaving things as they were, and wanting to respond to a point made by others.

You're full of shit. You were trying to annoy us. If you weren't here to annoy us by blathering on without actually making a real argument, then what exactly were you hoping to accomplish? Oh right, you have no intention of answering, because you know the answer.

Again I will say thanks for your time, and your opinions.

Politeness is no substitute for intelligence.

[Knife]

Oh - my family...my husband and children are an enormous blessing, which frankly, I don't think I could ever deserve.

Sorry, a bit late in coming in this one but....did you ever stop to think that if you don't feel you deserve your life (husband and kids) that it might be this very thing that is your so-called gap that can't be filled. Even with Jesus in your life you seem to still feel like you don't deserve them? Perhaps you need to talk to someone else, like a Phd.

It's simply my opinion and belief that no human, no 'thing' can fill the gap in me which was designed to be filled by The More.

So an old book, silly traditions and a support group fill the void in you that your husband and kids don't. Cool, if it works for you. If it happened to me I'd be conserned that I was clinically depressed or something, but good for you.

I feel that every time I post on here, I'm annoying people more and more. I don't want to continue in that vein, and so this will be my last post on this topic. Previously, I've wavered between leaving things as they were, and wanting to respond to a point made by others.

Again I will say thanks for your time, and your opinions.

Cut the crap. You said you've lurked here, it doesn't take a super genious to figure out this board likes people to back up their shit. People are getting uppity because all you do is state "IMO I like cheese" in such a tone as to dare people to either say they don't like cheese or get the admin all bent out of shape to ban your cheese ass.

If you were as safe and secure as you say you were, you'd actually bring up a topic to discuss. You know since this is a discussion board. Pick one of those things that 'works for you' and make your argument.

[Ender]

Oh - my family...my husband and children are an enormous blessing, which frankly, I don't think I could ever deserve.

If you had really filled the gap in your life, like you claim Christianity has, you should not feel this way. I recommend you get therapy.

[Knife]

Yes yes, we are all familiar with Christianity's basic message of your own worthlessness.

Hmm, I see where you're coming from. Yet I'd make the argument that her emptiness is the cause not a sympton. Granted, the 'quick fix' of worship seems to work for her, as you're eluding too.

I don't know, I think her line about her family not doing it for her just kind of jumps out and screams serious mental issues to me.

[Patrick Degan]

Oh - my family...my husband and children are an enormous blessing, which frankly, I don't think I could ever deserve.

Yes, but the big question is why you should feel this way at all.

Bringing up kids isn't easy, but I do realise how blessed I am. I can't use the word 'lucky' - though I can appreciate that's how others might describe my state.

It's simply my opinion and belief that no human, no 'thing' can fill the gap in me which was designed to be filled by The More.

And again, why this feeling of a hole in your life which has to be filled by something imaginary? Why should you have to feel unworthy at all? Have you ever really thought this through?

[Darth Wong]

I don't know, I think her line about her family not doing it for her just kind of jumps out and screams serious mental issues to me.

Alternatively, it might just mean that her husband doesn't understand her, and she needs an imaginary friend who will listen to her innermost thoughts. That's not exactly unusual; anyone who's read any books by relationship counselors will know that they report it is quite common for one or both partners in a long-term relationship to feel that their psychological needs are not really being met.

Of course, if that were the case, that would be all the more reason to see a professional, as you suggest.

Me, I'm assuming that she's not just putting on a brave face when she says that her marriage is absolutely wonderful, so it's a simple case of a "manufactured need"; something we should be quite familiar with in our consumer society. But a more cynical interpretation works too.

[Stark]

Mike, Mike, come on. The idea that she feels a 'need' that is jammed into her face by her belief system/community and yet has no basis is clearly nuts! Nobody feels wants or needs for less than real reasons, and this could never be manipulated by others... wait...

'Needing' something (particularly irrational, inexplicable 'I just need a big TV') is hardly a silver bullet of religious defence, contrary to what many seem to believe.

[Metatwaddle]

Oh - my family...my husband and children are an enormous blessing, which frankly, I don't think I could ever deserve.

Sorry, a bit late in coming in this one but....did you ever stop to think that if you don't feel you deserve your life (husband and kids) that it might be this very thing that is your so-called gap that can't be filled. Even with Jesus in your life you seem to still feel like you don't deserve them? Perhaps you need to talk to someone else, like a Phd.

I'm just speaking from experience here, but I think it is quite common for hardcore Christians to convince themselves that they do not deserve anything good at all because they are imperfect.

My father, who spent time in a hardcore Christian community when he was younger, says that the thing which was drilled into him most there was that "we are all sinners". (Fortunately, it turned out okay: he's a very secular scientist now.) When I've attended events put on by Christian student groups at my school (don't ask), the speakers and worship leaders say that they would "be nothing" and "have nothing" without God. And if I had a dollar for every time I've seen a Christian pamphlet that tells us that everyone actually deserves to go to hell (but that some can bypass this harsh justice by accepting Jesus)... well, I wouldn't be rich, but RedImperator and I could have a nice night out in Philadelphia, at least.

By secular logic, this doesn't make any sense. Sure, humans might not be good enough to "deserve" infinite joy. But we're definitely not awful enough to deserve infinite agony, either. Yet hardcore Christians seem to think that one evil act - it doesn't even have to hurt anyone, it can just be seeing someone with a nice body and wanting to fuck him or her - is somehow awful enough that a fair punishment is to burn in hell for eternity. They leap from "I am imperfect" to "I am an evil person". Not half-and-half, not sort of bad and sort of good, but evil and tainted with sin. From this depressing view of one's own character, it follows pretty easily that any major blessings in one's life - like a loving husband and healthy, well-adjusted kids - are completely undeserved as well.

The "I don't deserve anything good" idea is particularly useful for Christianity as it requires people to think that they have no redeeming qualities but for God's influence on them, and that they are nothing without God.

[PeZook]

...and, ironically enough, when cult leaders use the same psychological mechanism to make their followers dependent on them, it's an evil manipulative scheme that destroys families and is a grave threat to society.

I always get a kick out of this. That, or the creeps, depending on the context.

[Zixinus]

I'm not a child, and I'm not a 'he'.

I'm actually the mother of adult children.

How do we know that you aren't lying in hope of getting sympathy?

Apologies - it's clear now that this forum is designed for like-minded people; I didn't mean to cause trouble by posting.

If you mean "like-minded" as "rational" and "critical" then yes. Most people here will want a rational argument. You didn't present an argument though, you just stated that you are a Christian and hoped to get "die Christian" response.

Again, further apologies.

Stop apologising. It makes you look pathetic. We are humans not demons of the Devil. Start actually comprehending what we are saying.

If I attempt to do what Jesus said and did - love others, forgive, take care of the poor and the marginalised - then my life makes a lot more sense to me.

Do you honestly think that only Jesus, and Jesus alone, thought of the idea that if we loved each other rather then hate each other, everyone's life would be better? Oh wait, I recall that humanism may centre around that idea as well, along with hippies. What other?

I've been around a long time. I tried living a hedonistic life. I tried being a good person, under my own steam. I had limited success at both of those! I can't give any scientific evidence - all I can say is that when I handed things over to God - when I started believing, life changed immeasureably.

Is it by any accident the time you "handed your life to God" the same time when you started becoming responsible with your life and taking it seriously?

I guess my motivation for posting what I did was thinking that maybe someone might be inclined to think again before condemning the whole Christian thing.

You don't understand what is truly behind that idea don't you? The idea is that religion, all and as a whole, is unnecessary and a parasite in society. Christianity is the most outspoken and popular around the world, and not because its cool. It is because it was the conqueror's and ruler's religion. The missionaries "convert or die" attitude way back might also had to do something with it.

But Jesus is deserving of better.

Jesus is dead. For about two millenias now. Give or take a few decades. He doesn't care because he can't care.

("He died for your sins, man. How can you not like him? You could never do that like he did")

Personally, I'm all hung up on how did he die FOR my sins? I recall that we LEFT him to die. Also, how come he died for MY sins? I'm in the present and Jesus is in the past.

I then said I had limited success at both. That was me being a bit humorous. A partying lifestyle was fun - I had good times, in my twenties - but it didn't fill the gap. And later on, I was 'successful' a good career, nice husband and kids, good friends, nice home, etc. I lived my life as best I could. But still there was an emptiness.

I'm a teenager. I'm not successful, nor very happy, and I have some issues with myself. However, I never felt "empty". All I need to feel less grey is my warm bed, my writing laptop, a thermos full of lemon tea and some good classical music.

Oh - my family...my husband and children are an enormous blessing, which frankly, I don't think I could ever deserve.

If you worked hard for them, to make the marriage work, to assure proper education to your children then you do deserve them. Do not let anyone say otherwise, not even God. God didn't give birth to your child.

I feel that every time I post on here, I'm annoying people more and more.

When it comes to arguments of this kind, there is a reflex that people get from debating fundies. The rapid, really annoying fundies that believe things like creationism is a valid Science, white supremacists, etc. They come in many flavours, some open and hateful, and some try to mimic a saint or even Jesus himself.

Your attitude and refusal to argue is like a hammer on that reflex, whether you realise that or not.

[CaptJodan]

("He died for your sins, man. How can you not like him? You could never do that like he did")

Personally, I'm all hung up on how did he die FOR my sins? I recall that we LEFT him to die. Also, how come he died for MY sins? I'm in the present and Jesus is in the past.

:: It's the rules as made by God. They don't make sense, but aren't we so blessed that he was willing to let his son (or him, I've always been confused as to what Jesus is supposed to be...different sects consider him different things) die for us; die for you? The bottom line; we don't know why God does what he does (and it really doesn't matter), but clearly you're blessed to be forgiven (if only you'd accept him)

As to why all the pomp and circumstance, I had it explained to me by a Catholic once that it was about bringing the message to the people. Yes, apparently God, in his booming voice, couldn't reach the entire world's population on it's own to give all this helpful advice to his people, so he sent his "son (or a human form of himself or whatever it is)" to preach his word. Humans needed a symbol, not just a booming voice on high.

[General Zod]

:: It's the rules as made by God. They don't make sense, but aren't we so blessed that he was willing to let his son (or him, I've always been confused as to what Jesus is supposed to be...different sects consider him different things) die for us; die for you? The bottom line; we don't know why God does what he does (and it really doesn't matter), but clearly you're blessed to be forgiven (if only you'd accept him)

If they don't make sense then why believe them at all? Honestly it doesn't get much more ridiculous than "I fucked up with humanity so I'm going to sacrifice myself to myself to make sure I can save them and don't fuck up again, even though I'm all powerful."

[Knife]

:: It's the rules as made by God. They don't make sense,

Indeed. I've never had anyone explain the 'rules' or even more fun, the 'trinity' to me in any fashion that made sense.

The idea that a god made me, the world and the rules but some how it's my fault and I get punished because he made me uncapable to follow his damn rules is insane. Or better yet, mankind couldn't follow the rules he made us for, so destroyed us and started over and still couldn't get it to work.

Did he change his rules so we could follow them? Nope. Did he change us so that we're capable of following his rules? Hell no. What was his solution? PR.

I'll incarnate myself, string myself up and die in front of you all to show you that I love you- he said. Good move on the PR front, god loves us again. But....did the rules change? Nope. Are humans any more capable of following the rules? Hell no.

Plus this all hinges on the idea that I'm responsible for what some dude and chick did six thousand years ago to piss god off. Yup, it makes sense to me, in that it's fucking insane.

[Lagmonster]

:: It's the rules as made by God. They don't make sense,

Indeed. I've never had anyone explain the 'rules' or even more fun, the 'trinity' to me in any fashion that made sense.

If you really back a Christian into a corner, they might tell you that the rules don't have to make sense, because God has the power and therefore whatever he expects you to do, you do without question however illogical or wrong it seems. Whence cometh the John Boyd quote in Mike's sig, for example.

[Kanastrous]

But of course there's also a large and timeworn industry, from St. Augustine/Origen/et all onwards, who made careers out of explaining how the evident inconsistencies in scripture and church policy, aren't really inconsistencies, at all...

[[R_H]]

:: It's the rules as made by God. They don't make sense, but aren't we so blessed that he was willing to let his son (or him, I've always been confused as to what Jesus is supposed to be...different sects consider him different things) die for us; die for you? The bottom line; we don't know why God does what he does (and it really doesn't matter), but clearly you're blessed to be forgiven (if only you'd accept him)

As to why all the pomp and circumstance, I had it explained to me by a Catholic once that it was about bringing the message to the people. Yes, apparently God, in his booming voice, couldn't reach the entire world's population on it's own to give all this helpful advice to his people, so he sent his "son (or a human form of himself or whatever it is)" to preach his word. Humans needed a symbol, not just a booming voice on high.

Wouldn't the booming voice seemingly coming from nowhere be a more powerful symbol than some dude walking around that is fairly normal (ie comes from the same place, same culture, same language etc). You'd think that the supersitious lot people back then (more so than now anyways) would be more impressed by that booming voice. And the bit about his booming voice not being able to reach every to give them helpful advice (lol) smacks of not being omnipotent.

In conclusion, the Abrahamic god is likely a daemon prince of Khorne. Purge him in the name of the Emperor !

[CaptJodan]

Wouldn't the booming voice seemingly coming from nowhere be a more powerful symbol than some dude walking around that is fairly normal (ie comes from the same place, same culture, same language etc). You'd think that the supersitious lot people back then (more so than now anyways) would be more impressed by that booming voice. And the bit about his booming voice not being able to reach every to give them helpful advice (lol) smacks of not being omnipotent.

Problem is, God already did the whole booming voice thing with Moses and any of his other dick suckers...the talking burning shrubs, for example. Didn't seem to have the same following as Christianity picked up. So a Christian (at least this Catholic I talked to) would say that a tangable God was necessary for belief. And since the Bible and all scientists agree that Jesus existed...

As to his powers, clearly, either god is not omnipotent as suggested, or he gives two shits to people outside this tiny area of the world.

[General Zod]

As to his powers, clearly, either god is not omnipotent as suggested, or he gives two shits to people outside this tiny area of the world.

As to the first part, well, he was stopped by chariots of iron. You don't get many clearer indications of not being omnipotent. The second part is pretty much a given. It's not as if God hasn't ordered wholesale genocide before.