Forerunners vs Galactic Empire

[hongi]

1) Engineering competition. Who has constructed the biggest object, and who has constructed it faster?

2) Palpatine has crushed the rebels at Endor. By fiat, the Flood disappears and the Forerunners decide to take over the SW galaxy. This is long before the events of Halo by the way. A portal opens connecting the two.

Who wins in a total war scenario?

[Ford Prefect]

1) Engineering competition. Who has constructed the biggest object, and who has constructed it faster?

The Forerunner Ark was capable of constructing a Halo in only a few months (three or four, but I don't recall exactly). However, I only know that the diametre of the ring is ten thousand kilometres, so I can't calculate the volume of the ring in order to compare it to the Death Star II feat.

2) Palpatine has crushed the rebels at Endor. By fiat, the Flood disappears and the Forerunners decide to take over the SW galaxy. This is long before the events of Halo by the way. A portal opens connecting the two

Almost totally impossible to fathom. Our knowledge of what the Forerunners were capble of is limited; we have only minimal knowledge of their technological capabilities. I think there's an instance in Ghosts of Onyx were a bunch of Sentinels get together and pull off a fireworks show which some UNSC types think would have been done by their nuclear artillery, but I've not read the novel.

[hongi]

Almost totally impossible to fathom.

I was hoping the Terminals could have a little more to say about that:

It is my opinion that any system where there is evidence that the enemy has established a physical presence is lost and must be razed. This fleet currently retains the capacity to force premature stellar collapse; I advise that this be established as standard operating procedure for all compromised systems forthwith. We cannot fight this war by half measures if we intend to win.

D: The Mantle has not failed! I've already razed scores of worlds--sterilized systems, routed and [disintegrated] the parasite! We're learning its tricks and strategies. We can halt this thing! And we can follow in Their footsteps!

If we start immediately--commence total biosphere elimination of life sustaining worlds (as indicated in the accompanying charts) and relocate evacuated populations to facilities such as those described in the [Onyx project]--all this could be achieved in [57,1590 (+/-2,184) hours].

In support of 05-032's original 1000 core vessels is a fleet numbering 4,802,019; though only 1.8 percent are warships - and only 2.4 percent of that number are capital ships - I am outnumbered [436.6:1]. I expect my losses will be near total, but overwhelming force has its own peculiar drawbacks.

[hongi]

Ah, forgot this part:

By [cutting fire breaks[?]] into the [core worlds' volume] we would be able to frustrate the enemy's advances for approximately [70,000 hours] and lure them into costly naval battles.

If we start immediately--commence total biosphere elimination of life sustaining worlds (as indicated in the accompanying charts) and relocate evacuated populations to facilities such as those described in the [Onyx project]--all this could be achieved in [57,1590 (+/-2,184) hours].

It doesn't indicate how many core worlds there are.

[Peptuck]

2) Palpatine has crushed the rebels at Endor. By fiat, the Flood disappears and the Forerunners decide to take over the SW galaxy. This is long before the events of Halo by the way. A portal opens connecting the two

Almost totally impossible to fathom. Our knowledge of what the Forerunners were capble of is limited; we have only minimal knowledge of their technological capabilities. I think there's an instance in Ghosts of Onyx were a bunch of Sentinels get together and pull off a fireworks show which some UNSC types think would have been done by their nuclear artillery, but I've not read the novel.

The Sentinels were able to join together into I believe chains of several hundred or thousand and bring down Covenant capital ships with their combined firepower.

The planet of Onyx was actually revealed, at the book's climax, to be made up entirely of Sentinels. Trillions of them. If a few thousand can destroy a Covenant ship with ease, I shdder to imagine what trillions linked together are capable of.

But, if we're talking a total war scenario, the Forerunner simply need to move a Halo through the portal and fire it. Even a single Halo detonation will tear an immense hole in the Empire's production capabilities and population. Of course, its well within the Empire's capability to destroy a Halo, as a single fusion drive detonating is enough to make one rip itself apart....

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

So they can make black holes at will?

[Ghost Rider]

So we are going to see numbers or is this going to masturbation of Halo?

[hongi]

So they can make black holes at will?

More like a wormhole. Inside the planet Onyx is a slipspace rift that leads to an entirely separated (in a different dimension I guess) Dyson Sphere.

[Xess]

Using this data we get a volume of ~1.1x10^17 m^3 for Installation 04. The DS2 at 60% completion has a volume of ~2.29x10^17 m^3.

This gives The Ark and the Empire's industrial capacity rough parity. Although it is worth noting that the DS2 was built in secret by presumably mobile construction machinery as opposed to a large dedicated structure.

[Darth Ruinus]

If a few thousand can destroy a Covenant ship with ease

But then again, aren't Halo ships brought down by megaton level firepower?

[Peptuck]

If a few thousand can destroy a Covenant ship with ease

But then again, aren't Halo ships brought down by megaton level firepower?

Not exactly. The level of firepower in Shiva nukes is never explained; they certainly aren't the same as modern nukes, as they seem to generate EMPs in vacuum. There's one instance where a Covenant ship takes two direct hits from a MAC gun, a bombing run from Longswords, and a direct hit with a nuclear missile and is still fighting.

The NOVA bomb obliterated an entire Covenant fleet, but that thing also destroyed a small (very small) moon and wreaked havoc on an entire planet's surface.

Unfortunately, this doesn't do much to quantify the Covenant ships' shielding capacity, especially against the Onyx Sentinels, which act like they have some wierd dial-a-yield beam weapons.

[SylasGaunt]

Covenant ships seem to handle energy weaponry far better than they do kinetic strikes. That said it only takes one or two plasma torpedoes to down their shields.

And I don't think we're even given hard numbers on the group that took out the covvie ships, though we do know the forerunners can build stupidly large numbers of the things.. it would be interesting to see what a planet's mass of sentinels could do if they combined their beam weapons.

[Darth Ruinus]

If a few thousand can destroy a Covenant ship with ease

But then again, aren't Halo ships brought down by megaton level firepower?

Not exactly. The level of firepower in Shiva nukes is never explained; they certainly aren't the same as modern nukes, as they seem to generate EMPs in vacuum.

Well, what yield would be needed to do that? (dont know much about nukes so, does this make sense?)

There's one instance where a Covenant ship takes two direct hits from a MAC gun, a bombing run from Longswords, and a direct hit with a nuclear missile and is still fighting.

Well, what yield was the nuke, what type of weapons do those Longswords use, and how strong is the MAC gun? (was it a ship mounted one, or the orbital station ones?)

[hongi]

How many warships does the Galactic Empire have?

[Aenigma]

But then again, aren't Halo ships brought down by megaton level firepower?

Not exactly. The level of firepower in Shiva nukes is never explained; they certainly aren't the same as modern nukes, as they seem to generate EMPs in vacuum.

Well, what yield would be needed to do that? (dont know much about nukes so, does this make sense?)

There's one instance where a Covenant ship takes two direct hits from a MAC gun, a bombing run from Longswords, and a direct hit with a nuclear missile and is still fighting.

Well, what yield was the nuke, what type of weapons do those Longswords use, and how strong is the MAC gun? (was it a ship mounted one, or the orbital station ones?)

This is about the Forerunner- not the Covenant or Earth.....

[Darth Wong]

The Forerunners have truly spectacular technology, given the fact that they can apparently build self-maintaining structures that operate for millions of years. Unfortunately, they're also a very poorly written species, with extreme technological and logistical capabilities yet apparently without the ability to stop the Flood. And then, as a matter of plot in the Halo games, the remnants of humanity and part of the Civil War-torn Covenant are able to do what the mighty Forerunners could not!

[Covenant]

Well, what yield would be needed to do that? (dont know much about nukes so, does this make sense?)

No, a superior yield isn't really the question. However, you could use a specific other type of weapon to create an EMP in open space. It just wouldn't be a conventional nuke--it's be a fancy type of weapon. Realistically though, how close are those detonations going off? One has to wonder how pathetically lame those starships are to still be so weak to EMP.

[Covenant]

The Forerunners have truly spectacular technology, given the fact that they can apparently build self-maintaining structures that operate for millions of years. Unfortunately, they're also a very poorly written species, with extreme technological and logistical capabilities yet apparently without the ability to stop the Flood. And then, as a matter of plot in the Halo games, the remnants of humanity and part of the Civil War-torn Covenant are able to do what the mighty Forerunners could not!

Reminds me of a lot of every other sort of 'amazingly advanced precursor species' you hear about in Sci-Fi. They have powersources that defy comprehension, knowledge of weapons so great that they sunder the heavens, a great and peaceful society (until perhaps a debate over something quixotic and enlightened rages out of control) and the ability to create vast--or vast amounts--of highly advanced technology that's still working.

That and they're always dead by something that the modern ass-scratchers of the universe seem to be troubled by, but more than able to handle.

And sadly often it turns out the the thing they can't handle are some sort of biological abomination, such as the Zerg, the Flood, the Wraith, etc. Bonus points if you created it yourself. Double bonus points if the thing you created to kill the thing that's inexplicably killing you ends up actually killing you. These usually happen to be robots.

[Peptuck]

But then again, aren't Halo ships brought down by megaton level firepower?

Not exactly. The level of firepower in Shiva nukes is never explained; they certainly aren't the same as modern nukes, as they seem to generate EMPs in vacuum.

Well, what yield would be needed to do that? (dont know much about nukes so, does this make sense?)

It doesn't make sense at all. Its not the yield of the weapon, its the way the EMP effect is generated, which is hard to do outside of an atmosphere.

There's one instance where a Covenant ship takes two direct hits from a MAC gun, a bombing run from Longswords, and a direct hit with a nuclear missile and is still fighting.

Well, what yield was the nuke, what type of weapons do those Longswords use, and how strong is the MAC gun? (was it a ship mounted one, or the orbital station ones?)[/quote]

I hate to say this, but the exact numbers regarding the yields are never really stated. The only weapon the UNSC has that is really quantified is the Super MACs, which are said to accelerate a 2000 ton tungsten shell at .8c. Those blow through Covenant ships like they're made of paper, so that's nearly useless for estimating their capacity to take damage, as their threshold is obviously much lower.

[Peptuck]

The Forerunners have truly spectacular technology, given the fact that they can apparently build self-maintaining structures that operate for millions of years. Unfortunately, they're also a very poorly written species, with extreme technological and logistical capabilities yet apparently without the ability to stop the Flood. And then, as a matter of plot in the Halo games, the remnants of humanity and part of the Civil War-torn Covenant are able to do what the mighty Forerunners could not!

To be fair, Halo 3 does go into why the Forerunner really lost the war against the Flood - unfortunately, that reason is mostly because the Forerunner were morons.

They basically fought the Flood for three hundred years, but for religious and moral reasons they held back on using the most powerful weapons they had, and their protective nature toward other species left those species vulnerable to the Flood and unable to defend themselves against Flood attack. By the time they wised up and abanonded the stupid moral limitations, they were already too late, and their best weapon against the Flood had betrayed them.

In the Halo games, at least, the heroes are not dealing with a Flood horde that has consumed literally millions of worlds; they're fighting small, local infestations that haven't gotten rolling yet.

[Darth Ruinus]

This is about the Forerunner- not the Covenant or Earth.....

Oh I know, but, I am trying to see how much is needed to destroy a Covenant ship, then perhaps scale that up to how much is needed to destroy a Covenant ship easily and that would be Forerunner firepower.

Then compare that to ISD firepower.

Unless there is a better way (which, there probably is...)

[The Grim Squeaker]

The Forerunners have truly spectacular technology, given the fact that they can apparently build self-maintaining structures that operate for millions of years. Unfortunately, they're also a very poorly written species, with extreme technological and logistical capabilities yet apparently without the ability to stop the Flood. And then, as a matter of plot in the Halo games, the remnants of humanity and part of the Civil War-torn Covenant are able to do what the mighty Forerunners could not!

To be fair, Halo 3 does go into why the Forerunner really lost the war against the Flood - unfortunately, that reason is mostly because the Forerunner were morons.

That's not totally accurate...

They basically fought the Flood for three hundred years, but for religious and moral reasons they held back on using the most powerful weapons they had

Which were capable of killing every living thing inside the galaxy, while their society was apparently based on the belief of "The mantle" (Previous uber-race told them to look after shit and be good protectors to the universe).
Also, remember that Collapsing STARS is not considered one of the "restricted" weapons/abilities. Food for thought.

.
, and their protective nature toward other species left those species vulnerable to the Flood and unable to defend themselves against Flood attack.

And due to the power of the flood, in addition the maginot line would apparently have worked if not for Love... And a rampant super A.I. .

By the time they wised up and abanonded the stupid moral limitations, they were already too late, and their best weapon against the Flood had betrayed them.

In the Halo games, at least, the heroes are not dealing with a Flood horde that has consumed literally millions of worlds;

And is extra-galactic in source, with an unknown starting "mass", nor are the heroes busy with cataloging every living thing in the galaxy at the same time.
they're fighting small, local infestations that haven't gotten rolling yet.

[Peptuck]

This is about the Forerunner- not the Covenant or Earth.....

Oh I know, but, I am trying to see how much is needed to destroy a Covenant ship, then perhaps scale that up to how much is needed to destroy a Covenant ship easily and that would be Forerunner firepower.

Then compare that to ISD firepower.

Unless there is a better way (which, there probably is...)

Really, all that would give you is the firepower of a group of Sentinels chained together. The main weapons of the Forerunner were warships, not Sentinels, and while we have a good measure of their ships' strategic weapons, their tactical weapons are not really touched upon too heavily, which is very annoying.

[Connor MacLeod]

I thought Cortana's super modified plasma beam (modifed from their crappy plasma torpedoes) made rather short work of Covvie ships

[hongi]

I thought Cortana's super modified plasma beam (modifed from their crappy plasma torpedoes) made rather short work of Covvie ships

She booted the new system she had devised to control the plasma. It used EM pulses a priori to align the stochastic motions of the plasma atoms, herding their trajectories and eleven degrees of electronic freedom into a laser-fine columnated beam within a microsecond.

The Covenant use their plasma weapons like a brute weapon. Cortana aims it better and focuses it into a scalpel sort of weapon. She gets more bang for her buck.

But I don't think the 'yield' of the plasma changed any. If I remember right, previous threads have established Covenant firepower as double to triple digit gigatons. Probably the same here.

Just want to repeat my question. How many ships does the GE have? They don't use more than a couple of hundred at a time right?