[CC] We Were Grossly Wrong

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Admiral Valdemar
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

NoXion wrote:
I realise you're being facetious, but being thrown back to a pre-Industrial Revolution civilisation is not exactly something I'm looking forward to. I suppose I have the benefit of being only 20, but spending the rest of my life in backbreaking labour just to survive doesn't exactly appeal.
You might get a lucky break and die from an orgy with two beautiful women tomorrow. Or a mugger.

If things are as bad as you say, what possible motivation have I to do anything? If nothing I can possibly do can mitigate the situation, and I'm doomed to either dying of some pre-industrial disease or working 12 hour days for the rest of my life, then what prevents me from simply having the time of my life while I can and hopefully expiring of excessive consumption before everything goes to hell?

This was my point when I said that doomsaying is a recipe for doing nothing. If the end is inevitable, why bother doing anything about it? Personally, I like to at least think that human ingenuity and self-interest will come to prominence and ease the transition. It may be an illusion, but that illusion keeps me a productive member of society who is at least willing to change his life if circumstances dictate.
It wasn't inevitable when it was being proposed, only now, at the end, does it seem we've overshot the tipping point and are now enjoying freaky effects as the phase transition of ice to fresh water accelerates. Now it is, so I guess I owe you a drink on this.

No one listened anyway, though, so we'll call it even.
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Post by Sikon »

OP article wrote:[...]
So the talk of sea level rise should not be in centuries, it should be decades or perhaps even single years. For 10,000 years, during all of human civilisation sea level remained stable leading us to believe that coastlines remained roughly in the same place. A century ago the sea began to rise one millimetre a year, 20 years ago it had reached two millimetres and this century it has risen to 3 millimetres.
[...]
That's not entirely a correct description, although it is true that there has on average been a sea level rise of millimeters per year, centimeters per decade. Here's first a graph of the past few thousand years, then more recent history where global warming has accelerated the rate of sea level rise:

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Ice melting naturally requires an amount of energy transferred into the ice sufficient to melt it, and there are multiple mechanisms by which such can be provided in a given period of time.

One mechanism of energy transfer is solar radiation received directly.

For example, consider if solar radiation absorbed changes by up to X watts per square meter: X joules per second per square meter, which is (31.5 * X) MJ per year. Since the mass of a cubic meter of ice is about 900 kg, with ice having its heat of fusion of 3.3E5 J/kg, a cubic meter of ice takes 300+ MJ to melt.

As a result, such a change in solar radiation absorbed is a sufficient rate of energy transfer to directly melt up to 0.1 * X meter thickness of ice per year.

As a random example, if part of an ice sheet is 2 kilometers or 2000 meters thick, then X watts per square meter on its top surface is nominally sufficient to melt about all of it in 20000 / X years or a greater period of time. In other words, the preceding theoretically provides enough energy to accomplish that when summed up over such a period of time.

Total average solar irradiance in the high latitude regions tends to be on the order of 100 watts per square meter (varying with location), although much is reflected rather than absorbed by the ice, but it is the net change that would be more relevant here. Such could reach up to multiple percent from global warming.

The preceding was essentially talking about radiative heat transfer. Of course, it is not the only form of heat transfer possible. For example, if a part of an ice sheet does break up and fall into the ocean, then that segment can conduct heat from warmer surrounding water, and the rate of energy transfer into pieces of ice may be much beyond that from sunlight on its surface.

To now get into talking about the real world directly, one can look at the Greenland ice sheet.

The volume of ice in the Greenland ice sheet is about 3 million cubic kilometers, with about 3 million trillion kilograms mass. Thickness varies, being up to several kilometers in some parts, less thick elsewhere.

A 2006 study concluded that the rate of ice loss in Greenland accelerated compared to 2004, reaching 240 cubic kilometers per year.

That would correspond to a loss rate approaching 0.01% per year. Nominally, it would be approaching 0.1% per decade or 1% melting per century, except extrapolation over too long of a timeframe is not fully valid since the rate can and does change over time.

Here's a 2006 news article on such:
BBC wrote:Greenland melt 'speeding up'

The meltdown of Greenland's ice sheet is speeding up, satellite measurements show.

[...]

Estimated monthly changes in the mass of Greenland's ice sheet suggest it is melting at a rate of about 239 cubic kilometres (57.3 cubic miles) per year.

This figure is about three times higher than an earlier estimate of the mass loss from Greenland made using the first two years of Grace measurements.

[...]

Dr Chen and colleagues partly attribute this to increased melting in the past one-and-a-half years and partly to better processing of the data.

"Acceleration of mass loss over Greenland, if confirmed, would be consistent with proposed increased global warming in recent years," the authors wrote in Science.

This would amount to a contribution to global sea level rise from Greenland of about half a millimetre (0.02 inches) each year [with total current sea level rise being multiple millimeters per year with other sources such as melting Antarctic ice].
From here.
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Post by PainRack »

NoXion wrote: ...
Is there any historical precedent for making such changes on a massive scale? Or will we as individuals have to make do with reducing our carbon emissions and living a decent amount above sea level? Or is it more likely that things will only start changing once the shit hits the fan?
Jared Diamond in How societies choose to collapse highlights a pacific society which demolished their current way of agriculture for survival.....

He highlights certain factors for change in addition to the normal ones for policy change. Normally, policy changes occur when information is available, argument and debate is present and leadership present,then unfreezing and change agents occur and etc.

Diamond appears to argue that on top of this, for changes to occur on a societal change, the people and leadership needs to be uninsulated from changes and harm on top of other factors............. Frankly, that one factor is sufficient to doom all of us. Our elites and rich simply don't care, they can use their money to get by much better than the rest of us, they don't want to sacrifice their wealth for no tangible benefits and they simply aren't unaware because their wealth shields them from anoying facts like rises in oil prices.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Chardok wrote:I had a discussion with a guy who said that human activity is doing NOTHING to affect global climate because our greenhouse gas output is negligible next to the amount of greenhouse gasses spewed into the atmosphere by volcanoes....
He's just making that up out of thin air. The numbers don't back him up at all. It's a very typical trait for the climatology deniers to simply make up facts.
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Post by Shinova »

So if all this fresh water ice gets dumped into the sea, what happens to the theory that the decreased salinity of ocean water will stop the gulf stream, preventing warm water from cycling back towards Europe and therefore turning Europe into the equivalent of Siberia or northern Canada?
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Hrm. Didn't some people make fun of Al Gore when he showed that little animation of his with a Google Earth New York getting Water Worlded?

Fuck. I wonder what happens to the Philippines.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Shinova wrote:So if all this fresh water ice gets dumped into the sea, what happens to the theory that the decreased salinity of ocean water will stop the gulf stream, preventing warm water from cycling back towards Europe and therefore turning Europe into the equivalent of Siberia or northern Canada?
It depends on how much the gulf-stream contributes to the european climate. Totally impossible to tell what'll happen. At any rate it's gonna be interesting.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The problems with such complex systems like the Gulfstream are that one set of people see it being shut down completely, while others see another system being set up that starts bringing us back into equilibrium again. And yet another group will come to something else entirely. It's really not a simple system to predict and we're having problems accurately gauging how sea ice is melting, to say nothing of landmasses and these complex lower sea currents.

The sea ice issue is an interesting one, because as Sikon explained, you have solar radiation affecting it and the albedo of the planet, but you also now have a big impact from the surrounding water warming and expanding too which feeds back into the process once our tipping point, as it were, is hit. That's why we're starting to see the Arctic vanish in massive amounts in summer despite reports only 18-24 months ago stating this would take a century at least.

With Greenland accelerating and Antarctica showing signs of instability growing now too, on top of various glaciers in the Americas, Europe and Asia shrinking at ever faster rates, I'd say the time to act and make a difference has past thanks to our bureaucratic bullshit. To have any real effectiveness now, we'd have to dramatically increase the restrictions on our emissions and consumption more so than before just to avoid an even bigger catastrophe than what we're facing now (and sooner).

It's depressing this isn't even on the news right now. They usually have whole weekly segments devoted to following Inuit tribes as they drown their sorrows in alcohol, or polar bears just drowning. You'd think something like a growing voice saying "Well, seems we've totally been wrong on this issue. It's worse than expected. Much more" would at least get some mention.

Or maybe not.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Out of curiosity, both myself and Mike would probably be interested to know what the predictions are for a place like Toronto that is fairly inland, yet bordered by the great lakes. I assume those levels would rise as well, but enough to wipe out our city? Anyone have a guess?
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Post by Alferd Packer »

Is there a link to the study/report(s) in question? I ask because I'm sure people are going to ask for it if I show them the articles posted on the first page.
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Post by JME2 »

Kanastrous wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote: Humans = screwed.
Not *this* human, baby.

I own a canoe.
And I've been thinking of buying a kayak so I guess we're in the same, heh, boat. 8)

Irregardless, if New York and other costal cities are fucked, then good old San Francisco's not far behind...
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Alferd Packer wrote:Is there a link to the study/report(s) in question? I ask because I'm sure people are going to ask for it if I show them the articles posted on the first page.
The IPCC report comes out in November, so all you've got are snippets leaked out for now as part of the summary. You can always point them to Monbiot's or Flannery's articles.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

I wonder if New York will be lost or just changed. If the oceans rise over the course of 50 to 100 years, chances are you won't even need to mass evacuate. People will move progressively inland, plus sections of the islands will likely have levies and dikes built to deal with the rising waters. I suppose the docks and such will have be be rebuild over time, but it doesn't have to be done all at once, which is the real killer. It would be interesting to see the New York City of 2150 be a canalled city like Venice. It could be quite an engineering project to make New York City livable when the oceans rise, but it can be done organically AS they rise. I imagine the same can be done by other coastal cities.

Florida and Louisiana look like the places where there is going to be serious issues.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

And what of London? They need a new barrier for the Thames now, but no one wants to put up with the cost. Is NYC really going to fork out the bill to make it an island fortress trying to stave off potential 25 metre increases in sea level? What about storms? If this is even feasible, it will cost far more than a new Thames barrier I expect.

Then there are the problems with cities in a dwindling energy age and where food production will be affected by climate change and human factors. Such large metropolises may become far rarer, especially on the coast. Of course, if you let NYC be lost to the tides, you've just bankrupt the global insurance system. Now imagine every other coastal city going the same route. Not everyone can afford to do something about that, nor can they afford to be inactive either.

These issues need to be painstakingly looked into now, because by the time people lose their complacency, they may be unable to react fast or rationally enough. If Katrina is an example to go by, we may as well just ignore any chance of lifting a finger for others.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Well, OK, if engineering New York City and the other coastal cities' survival is too hard, what should we do then?
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Post by Chardok »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Alferd Packer wrote:Is there a link to the study/report(s) in question? I ask because I'm sure people are going to ask for it if I show them the articles posted on the first page.
The IPCC report comes out in November, so all you've got are snippets leaked out for now as part of the summary. You can always point them to Monbiot's or Flannery's articles.

Gobbeldygook. The scientists don't even agree on this! we should keep doing what we're doing, because it's natural, and who are WE to interfere with nature? Or even TRY to interfere?
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Well, OK, if engineering New York City and the other coastal cities' survival is too hard, what should we do then?
Buy a lot of Wellington boots.

I don't know. Aside from relocating gradually inland, that still isn't a solution given the major effects of climate change aren't really the coastal swamping we'll be getting (though the media likes this as it sounds more tragic).

The effects on food production, keystone species and population centres will be more than enough for us to deal with without fortifying every major coastal city. Though since even today we have people living in areas of high tectonic activity, storm prone or simply amazingly remote to civilisation, I see us trying to protect against rising tides for a time. At least until a better idea is brought to the table, or we simply cannot cash the cheque needed.

It's damage control now, since we've no hope of cutting emissions voluntarily and making a difference and the only major initiatives to stop this whole mess were ignored en masse for years. Now we reap what we sowed into the air. It's sure going to suck for the low-lying people of the world a lot earlier.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

It's sure going to suck for the low-lying people of the world a lot earlier.
Has my vote for the biggest understatement of the century.
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Post by Lonestar »

PainRack wrote: Jared Diamond in How societies choose to collapse highlights a pacific society which demolished their current way of agriculture for survival.....

He highlights certain factors for change in addition to the normal ones for policy change. Normally, policy changes occur when information is available, argument and debate is present and leadership present,then unfreezing and change agents occur and etc.

Diamond appears to argue that on top of this, for changes to occur on a societal change, the people and leadership needs to be uninsulated from changes and harm on top of other factors............. Frankly, that one factor is sufficient to doom all of us. Our elites and rich simply don't care, they can use their money to get by much better than the rest of us, they don't want to sacrifice their wealth for no tangible benefits and they simply aren't unaware because their wealth shields them from anoying facts like rises in oil prices.
Jared Diamond also dodged explaining the biggest social collapse of them all, the Western Roman Empire. No doubt it was too hard to figure the enviroment into explaining that one.*














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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I thought German people were the bane of the Romans, them and the other unwashed masses out there. Oh well.

The masking of major problems by other events goes on. It is now seen that Katrina may have masked the peaking of crude oil in 2005 by shifting prices up anyway thanks to that storm. Had Katrina not hit, the economy would likely have suffered higher oil prices anyway once someone cottoned on to this fact and then questions would be asked. Instead, Louisiana sinking was a convenient distraction and can be used as an excuse for what we have now.

But it also can be used to support the argument that more natural disasters like this can be expected and we're obviously not ready for them.
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Post by Shinova »

Chardok wrote:Gobbeldygook. The scientists don't even agree on this! we should keep doing what we're doing, because it's natural, and who are WE to interfere with nature? Or even TRY to interfere?
Aren't these usually the same kind of people who accuse enviro-nuts of trying too hard to not interfere with nature?
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Lonestar wrote:Jared Diamond also dodged explaining the biggest social collapse of them all, the Western Roman Empire. No doubt it was too hard to figure the enviroment into explaining that one.*

*two words: Lead Plumbing.
Well environmental collapse isn't the only reason historical societies have fallen apart. However a host of economic mismanagement, political/social decay, and indeed depletion of the Mediterranean littoral agriculture all contributed. The population and GDP of the Empire had been steadily depleting since before the Crisis of the Third Century. If only the Romans had developed the moldboard plow....

Still something more of the Roman West probably would've survived even the economic and agricultural contraction across Europe if not for several more specific political and military blunders.
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Post by Ender »

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...111.guest.html
"Oh, look at part of that glacier falling off and breaking off and flowing into the sea! Oh, no, it's melting!"

No, it's not that at all. It's just the opposite, in fact. There's so much damn snow that it's causing weight and then, of course, the floes headed into the warmer water. Any number of things can happen here, but it's not a sign that Greenland is melting, ladies and gentlemen.
Geeze, why couldn't those stupid secular scientist figure this out? It's not global warming, in fact, it is getting colder!
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Post by Alferd Packer »

Why would engineering New York's survival be that hard? Didn't the Chinese build a wall protecting one of the larger cities that would've otherwise been flooded by the building of the Three Gorges Dam? I recall seeing it on a program on the Discovery Channel some time ago, but I can't remember the city's name.
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Post by Chardok »

Ender wrote:http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...111.guest.html
"Oh, look at part of that glacier falling off and breaking off and flowing into the sea! Oh, no, it's melting!"

No, it's not that at all. It's just the opposite, in fact. There's so much damn snow that it's causing weight and then, of course, the floes headed into the warmer water. Any number of things can happen here, but it's not a sign that Greenland is melting, ladies and gentlemen.
Geeze, why couldn't those stupid secular scientist figure this out? It's not global warming, in fact, it is getting colder!

No. No no no no no. No, this is not possible. Mammals cannot have made it through T-K and evolved into creatures this fucking stupid. I fucking refuse to believe it.
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