Georgian parliament ponder monarchy

[Patrick Degan]

My point is that monarchies are not inherently evil as you implied, but rather that that they've got their good sides and bad sides like other governments, and that the good-bad balance is not lopsidedly in favour of democratic, republican, or parliamentary governments.

Monarchies are inherently regressive since superior forms of government have emerged. The fact that other forms of government have been engaged in similar misdeeds as monarchy does not really prove that monarchy is more or likewise efficient than those other forms, which is the key question, not "evil or not". Monarchy is a trait of regressive, traditionalist societies.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any evidence to support the claim that democracy is somehow inherently superior to, or more progressive than monarchy, or are you assuming that as an axiom?

Listen, mate; strange women lying about in ponds and distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive authority must derive from consent of the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

—Monty Python And The Holy Grail

[Beowulf]

Tyranny of the majority.

[Illuminatus Primus]

...is not as bad as tyranny of the minority (always the case in an oligarchy or monarchy).

[K. A. Pital]

I'm sick of that "tyranny of the majority" phrase. That's only possible in complete ochlocracy or mob rule.

[Patrick Degan]

Tyranny of the majority.

Non-sequitur.

[ray245]

Now...we only need to convince Korea to adopt a constitutional monarchy.

One way to ensure the north korea population are more welcoming to the south koreans, if the king or queen live in the south.

[AniThyng]

Now...we only need to convince Korea to adopt a constitutional monarchy.

One way to ensure the north korea population are more welcoming to the south koreans, if the king or queen live in the south.

...This doesn't make any sense. Why should the north koreans care about a heretic southern king/queen when they have their god-ruler Kim as it is?

[Rye]

I'm sick of that "tyranny of the majority" phrase. That's only possible in complete ochlocracy or mob rule.

Uh, no, it's not. Or do you think that gays/blacks aren't tyrannised in the bible belt, or jews in christian europe without the approval of the majority? If the majority didn't approve, there'd be uprisings and more social change. The majority's shifting tastes are the only thing that have turned the corners thus far on matters like racism and slavery in the US, and even they still have a way to go.

[Sidewinder]

Stas, I don't have a problem with your stance that monarchies are outdated, and that there are superior methods of government available. In fact, I would be inclined to agree with you to an extent. What I do have a problem with is equating Monarchies with the phrase "fascist genocidal dicks", when they are clearly not. In fact there's many monarchs who've been forces of good. Nipponese Emperor Meiji was a driving force in the industrialization of his country, which improved the quality of life of millions. Then there's the Rama IX who has been key in maintaining stability in Thailand for decades now. My point is that monarchies are not inherently evil as you implied, but rather that that they've got their good sides and bad sides like other governments, and that the good-bad balance is not lopsidedly in favour of democratic, republican, or parliamentary governments.

I don't know about that. Didn't Emperor Meiji enslave Korea to get that "improved quality of life for millions"? I wonder what the Koreans or Taiwanese would say about the change in the quality of their life due to the Japanese monarchy, but I'm sure it would be full of very strong language.

In Taiwan, the Japanese occupation is described in very negative terms. Strangely, Lee Tung-hui, who grew up during the occupation, is a Japanophile.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

In Taiwan, the Japanese occupation is described in very negative terms. Strangely, Lee Tung-hui, who grew up during the occupation, is a Japanophile.

The official ROC line v. what people experienced on Formosa rather than in mainland China. The Japanese were actually very responsible colonists over Taiwan, uniquely of their colonies, and I've heard Taiwanese say with a straight face that the solution to the current gray area of Taiwan in international law would be to join Japan, who by extension has the naval power to protect them from the PRC. Granted, they're probably extremists, but still, it's dramatically different from the treatment of even the Koreans just 15 years later.

[Netko]

It might be interesting to note that Serbia as well is seeing some signs of possibly going for constitutional monarchy (with the Karađorđević dynasty at the helm). The potential royal family is circling as vultures (moving back to Serbia, cozying up to politicians, etc), and is getting some support from a lot of quarters it seems, what with Serbia being in shambles economically, socially and politically. It is especially possible to happen after (and if) Kosovo gains independence.

Considering that the apparent alternative is the dominance of reactive Radicals (yes, the party name is the Radical Party) who's leader is in the Hague under war crime charges and the de-facto leader is proclaiming that the idea of Greater Serbia (SR+BiH+most of Croatia) is a good one and should be achieved if military capability was existant and then expressing regret that that isn't the case, restoration of the monarchy (which is much more pro-Western then that sad alternative) might not be a bad idea for everyone involved.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

In Taiwan, the Japanese occupation is described in very negative terms. Strangely, Lee Tung-hui, who grew up during the occupation, is a Japanophile.

The official ROC line v. what people experienced on Formosa rather than in mainland China. The Japanese were actually very responsible colonists over Taiwan, uniquely of their colonies, and I've heard Taiwanese say with a straight face that the solution to the current gray area of Taiwan in international law would be to join Japan, who by extension has the naval power to protect them from the PRC. Granted, they're probably extremists, but still, it's dramatically different from the treatment of even the Koreans just 15 years later.

The suggestion to join Japan is nothing short of ludicrious and more likely to drive China to war than anything else.

But yeah, a Taiwanese postdoc I talked to said the Japanese, unlike the power maniac Chinese Emperors, actually developed Taiwan a fair bit and the country's agriculture and other food industries and a few other things I think flourished under the Japanese as the latter was in sore need of just about any resource one could think of.

[K. A. Pital]

Or do you think that gays/blacks aren't tyrannised in the bible belt, or jews in christian europe without the approval of the majority?

With approval, of course. But it's often a mob thing, much more so than a legal thing. Strong legal persecution is more a matter of the past (incidentally, it was probably the strongest in monarchic states). I can't say monarchies are an alternative to ochlocratic and populist residues in power structures - they are based on bullshit authority traditions and - quite often - holy writs which are racist, homophobic and generally stupid.

[AniThyng]

It might be interesting to note that Serbia as well is seeing some signs of possibly going for constitutional monarchy (with the Karađorđević dynasty at the helm). The potential royal family is circling as vultures (moving back to Serbia, cozying up to politicians, etc), and is getting some support from a lot of quarters it seems, what with Serbia being in shambles economically, socially and politically. It is especially possible to happen after (and if) Kosovo gains independence.

Considering that the apparent alternative is the dominance of reactive Radicals (yes, the party name is the Radical Party) who's leader is in the Hague under war crime charges and the de-facto leader is proclaiming that the idea of Greater Serbia (SR+BiH+most of Croatia) is a good one and should be achieved if military capability was existant and then expressing regret that that isn't the case, restoration of the monarchy (which is much more pro-Western then that sad alternative) might not be a bad idea for everyone involved.

I think it's important to distinguish between actual monarchy and a democratic constitutional monarchy in this discussion - in countries like serbia and to a certain extent my own Malaysia, in a situation where the most powerful opposition in the parliament is an islamic theocratic party, a royalty that is western educated and generally moderate is a positive thing - add to that young, english-educated princes who have made a point of reminding the government of the day that they have a responsibility to the people to govern responsibly and not take the mandate for granted as a bonus.

Now of course people like IP and stas will not find this at all satisfactory, as the rejection of Thailand's king's actions demonstrate, but we have to make do with the system we have, not the system we want. And even then, you'll have a hard time convincing the "majority" of the electorate to vote that a pure "republican" system is superior to the current figurehead monarch system.

[K. A. Pital]

Now of course people like IP and stas will not find this at all satisfactory

Of course not. I mean, you should develop a system where collegiate ruling is based on both popular support and skill. Royalty which does not rule, but only governs, is nothing but an excessive atavism which can only be maintained for cultural reasons. Yes, some of them might look rational in the short term, like maintaining stability. Yes, with an uneducated, prone-to-irrationality electoral basis it can very easily give worse results than a monarchic rule, but where constitutional monarchy might be harmless, real monarchy is damned by it's mechanism of succession and authority structure.