Soldiers: Blackwater guards fired at fleeing cars

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Soldiers: Blackwater guards fired at fleeing cars

Post by The Spartan »

Linkers.
MSNBC.com wrote:Soldiers: Blackwater guards fired at fleeing cars
First U.S. troops on scene found no evidence of shooting by Iraqis
By Sudarsan Raghavan and Josh White
The Washington Post
Updated: 12:05 a.m. CT Oct 12, 2007
BAGHDAD, Oct. 11 - Blackwater USA guards shot at Iraqi civilians as they tried to drive away from a Baghdad square on Sept. 16, according to a report compiled by the first U.S. soldiers to arrive at the scene, where they found no evidence that Iraqis had fired weapons.

"It appeared to me they were fleeing the scene when they were engaged. It had every indication of an excessive shooting," said Lt. Col. Mike Tarsa, whose soldiers reached Nisoor Square 20 to 25 minutes after the gunfire subsided.

His soldiers' report -- based upon their observations at the scene, eyewitness interviews and discussions with Iraqi police -- concluded that there was "no enemy activity involved" and described the shootings as a "criminal event." Their conclusions mirrored those reached by the Iraqi government, which has said the Blackwater guards killed 17 people.

The soldiers' accounts contradict Blackwater's assertion that its guards were defending themselves after being fired upon by Iraqi police and gunmen.

Tarsa said they found no evidence to indicate that the Blackwater guards were provoked or entered into a confrontation. "I did not see anything that indicated they were fired upon," said Tarsa, 42, the commander of the 3rd Battalion, 82nd Field Artillery Regiment of the 2nd Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division. He also said it appeared that several drivers had made U-turns and were moving away from Nisoor Square when their vehicles were hit by gunfire from Blackwater guards.

Lawsuit filed
In Washington on Thursday, an injured Iraqi man and the families of three Iraqi civilians who were killed in the Sept. 16 shootings sued the company in federal court, calling the incident a "massacre" and "senseless slaughter" that was the result of corporate policies in the war zone.

Attorneys for Talib Mutlaq Deewan, who was injured in the shootings, and the families of Himoud Saed Atban, Usama Fadhil Abbass and Oday Ismail Ibraheem, who were killed, filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, asking for unspecified damages to compensate for alleged war crimes, illegal killings, wrongful death, emotional distress and negligence. The lawsuit names Blackwater USA, the Prince Group and Blackwater founder and chief executive Erik Prince as defendants.

"Blackwater created and fostered a culture of lawlessness amongst its employees, encouraging them to act in the company's financial interests at the expense of innocent human life," the 17-page complaint says.

Blackwater spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell said the company was aware of the lawsuit and would defend itself vigorously. She declined to comment further on the Nisoor Square incident until an ongoing FBI investigation is completed.

Susan L. Burke, one of the lawyers who filed the suit, said the families approached legal representatives in Baghdad in the hope of obtaining accountability for the shootings.

The families "are hopeful we can make a difference," Burke said, adding that she hopes the case will shed light on the "cowboy culture" she believes contractors have fostered in Iraq. "There is a sense of wanting to do something to make it right."

In the hours and days after the Nisoor Square shootings, the U.S. military sought to distance itself from Blackwater. Dozens of soldiers went door-to-door to seek out victims, offer condolence payments and stress that the military was not involved in the shootings, Tarsa and his soldiers said. Their actions underscore the long-standing tensions between the U.S. military and private security companies -- and the military's concerns that such shootings, and the lack of accountability for the private security industry, could undermine U.S. efforts to stabilize Iraq.

‘Absolutely tragic’
"It was absolutely tragic," said Maj. Gen. Joseph Fil, commander of the 1st Cavalry Division and the Army's top commander for Baghdad. "In the aftermath of these, everybody looks and says, 'It's the Americans.' And that's us. It's horrible timing. It's yet another challenge, another setback," he said.

The Washington Post on Thursday examined a storyboard of the soldiers' assessment that has been forwarded to senior U.S. military commanders, photos taken by aerial drones shortly after the shooting and sworn statements by two U.S. soldiers at the scene that day. The Post also reviewed photos taken by U.S. soldiers of the shootings' aftermath. These, along with interviews with four of Tarsa's soldiers who inspected the scene, revealed previously undisclosed details:


At least two cars, a black four-door taxi and a blue Volkswagen sedan, had their back windshields shot out, but their front windshields were intact, indicating they were shot while driving away from the square, according to the photos and soldiers. The Volkswagen, which crashed into a bus stand, had blood splattered on the inside of its front windshield and windows. One person was killed, soldiers said.

U.S. soldiers did not find any bullets that came from AK-47 assault rifles or BKC machine guns used by Iraqi policemen and soldiers. They found evidence of ammunition used in American-made weapons, including M4 rifle 5.56mm brass casings, M240B machine gun 7.62mm casings, M203 40mm grenade launcher casings, and stun-grenade dunnage, or packing.

A white sedan, carrying a doctor and her son, had not entered the Nisoor Square traffic circle, where the Blackwater vehicles had stopped, when it was fired upon, according to the aerial photos. News reports have said the guards shot at the car because they believed it approached them in a threatening manner.
"I was surprised at the caliber of weapon being used," said Capt. Don Cherry, 32. "My guys have 203s with nonlethal rounds we use as a warning shots. It's a rubber ball that bounces off the windshield."

"This is a hand grenade you are flying out there," he added.

From Forward Operating Base Prosperity, inside the Green Zone, Capt. Peter Decareau recalled seeing thick black smoke rising on Sept. 16 and thinking it was from a car bomb. He and other soldiers got into their Humvees and drove toward Nisoor Square.

They arrived around 12:30 p.m. and saw that Iraqi police had blocked in a second Blackwater convoy. By then, the Blackwater guards who had opened fire had left. The second Blackwater convoy had been apparently sent to support the first convoy, according to an initial State Department report.

But Iraqi police officials refused to let the Blackwater convoy leave until another U.S. military unit escorted it back to the Green Zone.

Decareau headed on to the square. It was flooded with more than 50 Iraqi security force personnel, including top generals. The police were evacuating victims. By then, the smoke, which had risen from the burning white sedan, had vanished. Two charred bodies were still in the car.

"People were upset," recalled Sgt. Derrek Martin.

By 1:30 p.m., both Cherry and Tarsa had arrived. Some Iraqi police officials told them that the Blackwater guards fired at the white car as it neared the square. The officials guessed that the driver may have accidentally pressed on the accelerator instead of the brakes, Tarsa said. Witnesses have said that the car was driving slowly and posed no threat.

"With a vehicle speeding up to a convoy, that's grounds for escalation of force," said Sgt. Jesse Fegurgur, 30.

‘This was uncalled for’
Cherry said he could consider the assault on the white sedan "a mistake," but he didn't understand why the guards fired down the road at cars whose drivers had turned around and were moving away.

"I was upset this happened," Cherry said. "This was uncalled for."

Decareau saw cars pointed away from the square with their rear windshields shot out, many bullet holes and smears of blood, he said.

An Iraqi colonel walked up to Tarsa and described the Blackwater shooters as men in "tan uniforms, black helmets, and that flag," pointing at the U.S. flag on Tarsa's sleeve. The colonel added that he knew the U.S. military wasn't involved. Still, Tarsa dispatched his soldiers across their sector over the next few days.

"I wanted our guys to be on the ground, to look people in the eye, to listen to their anguish, listen to their outrage, to let them know we're going to help those people personally affected," Tarsa said.

"I was concerned about acts of vengeance and misinformation somehow indicating we were part of this event," he said. Tarsa spoke with community and tribal leaders.

"It was a very tense 24 hours," said Maj. David Shoupe, the battalion spokesman. "We didn't know which way it was going to go."
I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you!

I would hope that this results in prosecutions, but I wouldn't bet on it. Something tells me that even if (and frankly it's a ginormous if) it comes to that and they're somehow convicted that they'll serve at most a couple of years and then get pardoned or released on good behavior or whatever.

I suppose I could hope that this will be the end of Blackwater in Iraq but that would require me to think that Iraqi sovereignty and law actually mean anything to this administration or even a majority of Americans. And I don't.
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Re: Soldiers: Blackwater guards fired at fleeing cars

Post by wautd »

The Spartan wrote:Linkers.
MSNBC.com wrote:snip


I suppose I could hope that this will be the end of Blackwater in Iraq .
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Post by The Spartan »

Hence what I wrote immediately afterwards.
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Post by wautd »

Yeah, didn't mean to place your words out of context, I was just thinking out loud.

At what point can we lable them as a terrorist organisation? Or doesn't that work when you're paid excessive amounts of money?
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Post by The Spartan »

I thought that might be the case but wanted to clarify to be certain. It's cool either way.

They can't be labeled a terrorist organization because they're loyal Americans and are fighting terrorists, therefore anything they do is right or forgivable. [Insert continued standard apologist bullshit here]
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

They're white people. White people are never terrorists. Ever. White people are freedom.
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Post by Sidewinder »

If Blackwater leaves Iraq, which private military contractor is able to replace them? (To my knowledge, the US military is highly dependent upon Blackwater because the Army and Marine Corps simply doesn't have enough boots on the ground.)

Overall, the best thing for the US to do now is to simply say, "Fuck it!" and withdraw their men and women from the hell that Iraq is.
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Re: Soldiers: Blackwater guards fired at fleeing cars

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

The Spartan wrote: I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you!
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Post by Glocksman »

I won't PM you, but it's from Casablanca.
Specifically where the police chief claims he's shocked about the gambling going on and then is handed his winnings.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

glad to see someone appreciates the classics.

now does that mean that somewhere in the Green Zone there's an insurgent named Lazlo looking for a fake passport?
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Post by NeoGoomba »

I'm surprised there aren't Iraqi's headhunting for Blackwater members specifically after all of this, especially ff they are as hated as all the reports indicate (moreso than the American regulars, correct?).
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Post by K. A. Pital »

I'm surprised there aren't Iraqi's headhunting for Blackwater members specifically after all of this
Didn't Iraqis kill Blackwater guys at some point in the war, then publically demonstrate them? Or am I mistaken? :?
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Post by Flagg »

Stas Bush wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't Iraqi's headhunting for Blackwater members specifically after all of this
Didn't Iraqis kill Blackwater guys at some point in the war, then publically demonstrate them? Or am I mistaken? :?
Yeah, there were 4 guys in Falluja that got burnt to a cript and hung from a bridge. At the time there was a shitload of outrage and they were described in the media as "civilian contractors". They may not have been Blackwater, but they were mercs IIRC.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

I think that combining the trail of event so far, mercs are fucking up big time in Iraq and are hated by common Iraqis, which has even reached the Iraqi government however much of a puppet it is and however remote from the problems of common citizens.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Flagg wrote:
Yeah, there were 4 guys in Falluja that got burnt to a cript and hung from a bridge. At the time there was a shitload of outrage and they were described in the media as "civilian contractors". They may not have been Blackwater, but they were mercs IIRC.
They were Blackwater and they were operating without some of the conditions (armoured vehicles, minimum number of security personnel in the convoy) that Blackwater was obligated to provide in their contracts. There is a lawsuit from the families of the dead condonttieri and a counter lawsuit from Blackwater over this.
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Post by Ryan Thunder »

You know, this would explain quite a few of the stories I've heard about American soldiers doing all sorts of rabid shit while the Germans, Canadians, and whoever else seem to just glide around the countryside, clean as a whistle. :wtf:
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Post by SirNitram »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Have we forgotten the IRA? :roll:
Most Americans have, yes. It helps that the pIRA has largely stopped, and signifigant chunks of the other splinters vanished into Iraq.

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Post by Flagg »

SirNitram wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Have we forgotten the IRA? :roll:
Most Americans have, yes. It helps that the pIRA has largely stopped, and signifigant chunks of the other splinters vanished into Iraq.

Ah, endless desert, lots of explosives, and Catholic Fundies vs. Islamic fundies... A karma-liscious end.
Plus, the IRA was a purely political organization after purely political means. So you have to ignore all that "Catholic or Protestant?", neighborhoods segregated by Christian sect, and Catholics from around the world sending them money shit.
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Post by Medic »

I'll quote again my NCOIC who's seen various mercenaries in action in Iraq: "they're out of fucking control."
Add on top of that that in a very real sense, they're in it for the money. Yes hiring guns on top of the standing Army rounds out the numbers but who exactly came up with their pay? If we judged them by what they're paid I suppose they're worth, what, 3 E-3's a piece, Soldier or Marine :lol: That's debatable like SWvST's debatable.

Well, good luck to Blackwater on finding a sympathetic ear, really, just cause they'll need it. Mine's not and most aren't -- evidently with ever-more good-reason.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Of course there is still Klan, & Weathermen
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Post by Kanastrous »

And the ELF, and the Klan, and the various Nazi/White Supremacist types.

Flagg - isn't Sinn Fein the political organization, and the IRA the armed organization? You described the IRA as a purely political organization after purely political means; do you mean the stance that they have adopted over the last several years' negotiations?
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Post by Flagg »

Kanastrous wrote:And the ELF, and the Klan, and the various Nazi/White Supremacist types.

Flagg - isn't Sinn Fein the political organization, and the IRA the armed organization? You described the IRA as a purely political organization after purely political means; do you mean the stance that they have adopted over the last several years' negotiations?
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Post by Diomedes »

Imperial Overlord wrote: They were Blackwater and they were operating without some of the conditions (armoured vehicles, minimum number of security personnel in the convoy) that Blackwater was obligated to provide in their contracts. There is a lawsuit from the families of the dead condonttieri and a counter lawsuit from Blackwater over this.
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Post by Pelranius »

At this rate, I wonder if the PMC folks will start shooting at the regular military. I hope not, but with the way things are going downhill...
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Post by SirNitram »

Pelranius wrote:At this rate, I wonder if the PMC folks will start shooting at the regular military. I hope not, but with the way things are going downhill...
They've pulled weapons on the US Military in the Green Zone already. So.
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