Games where the heroes' power is unacknowledged

[Adrian Laguna]

There's also Ace Combat 4, where as you progress through the missions your pilot slowly gains notoriety. The pilot's callsign is Möbius One, and thus has a möbius strip ensign. Because it's hard to get a good look at a picture doing 400 MPH, the enemy forces think it's a ribbon. By the last few missions you can hear in the radio allied ground troops saying excitedly, "Möbius One is above us, see up there!" and enemy ground troops screaming in terror, "It's the ribbon, we're all gonna die!"

And of course the last mission, you lead a unit of about two dozen aircraft all of which have a "Möbius [number]" callsign, and carry a möbius strip ensign. When the enemy squadrons notice this, you can hear them panicking over the radio.

[General Zod]

Re-reading the thread, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Metal Gear Solid. By the start of the second game Snake is recognized as a hero of Shadow Moses Island. It seems to me it's just a writer problem more than something silly like a 'console/pc' or 'genre' problem.

[Ar-Adunakhor]

Though, the story that comes to my mind that I see with a powerful hero coming home is that of John Rambo in "First Blood": a person with skills that are useless to a regular life, with a fair bit of psychological scarring from the traumatic experiences he just suddenly went through.

A Rambo like story in the ending would be pretty depressing though.

The difference here, though, is that most of the heroes you play in epic storylines (especially fantasy and sci-fi) come home with enough power to level cities with an off-hand glance. You might have no skills useful for regular life but the skills you do have will allow you to live comfortably off of people who either want you to protect them or don't want you to kill them, depending on if you chose the good or bad ending.

[Thanas]

The BG series did an excellent job in portraying your character as immensely powerful and widely recognized as a hero, starting from getting statues and even allowing yourself to become a god.


But then again, RPGs of that sort have somehow died out, being replaced by NWN crap.

Even in the Infinity Engine games, that was pretty unique.

True, which is why I quoted the BG series. Which was planned from the start with a sequel in mind.

In IWD, for example, even though your company is made of heroes you get the feeling that the Ten Towns get saved by some new hero every couple years, and that they literally aren't big enough to worship your greatness enough (the scale of IWD1 is GINORMOUS, where you fight two immensely powerful demons and their armies, yet the Ten Towns are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things).

I hated IWD. Basically, everything that made BG great - the story, real companions that were actually more than clichee characters but well written, with backgrounds and stuff was missing.

You could immerse yourself in BG, knowing there were other things going on than just you saving everything....IWD was empty and soulless.

In Planescape Torment, everyone was (ironically) off in their own little world, and sort of assumed that everyone around them was ridiculously powerful (which they pretty much were). No one was concerned with how powerful your party was.

PST - aargh. Buggy, and too stale for me.

On the other hand, HotU for NWN was pretty hugely epic, although NWN sucked.

Pray tell me what was the reason for including the heroes from the stock game and even Aribeth if you couldn't even play your old hero? That always bugged me.

What a difference to BG2, where you were expected to import your old character.

I'm also pretty impressed with MotB, so far.

Please elaborate. Never heard of it.

Oh, and a last ramble: I miss the 2d iso RPGs. Why does everything have to be in 3D which makes it damm hard to control your group? There is something to be found in the beauty of the BG maps.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

PST - aargh. Buggy, and too stale for me.

I'd like to know which alternate reality you're in, where PS:T could be considered "stale". Heck, the only reason I haven't finished it is because it's so rich and complex and full of detail. More text than you can poke a stick at. I haven't encountered any bugs either, so... eh.

Also, Morte is awesome.

[Thanas]

PST - aargh. Buggy, and too stale for me.

I'd like to know which alternate reality you're in, where PS:T could be considered "stale". Heck, the only reason I haven't finished it is because it's so rich and complex and full of detail. More text than you can poke a stick at. I haven't encountered any bugs either, so... eh.

Also, Morte is awesome.

Hmm. I know it constantly kept crashing on me back then, and a few dialogues were completely unfinished. The translation was horrible as well. But that might just be the german version.

Also, I consider it stale because it was mostly shot in brownish/dark colour. Contrast that with the beatifull outdoor worlds of BG, which had a lot of Brown as well, but contrasted it very well with green lush fields and cityscapes.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

You realize that Baby Raptor Jesus cries every time someone rags on Planescape, yes?

I can sort of understand being turned off by the general bleakness of PS and Sigil in particular, but that's just something you'd have to take up with Tony DiTerlezzi. Torment is easily among the greatest, if not the greatest RPG of all time. You're missing out.

[Thanas]

I played PST. BG is just better.

While I freely admit that PST introduced some concepts into the IE series, but still it was BG2 which rounded them out.

Oh, and also it has a still active and huge modding community. Too my knowledge nothing on the scale of the BGTutu or the various NPC mods has been attempted for PST.

I might be willing to give PST another chance, but nothing seems to be on the horizon.

[Darth Yoshi]

As far as Metroid goes, I figured Samus would return the artifacts to their previous resting places if possible, as a gesture of respect for her adopted people. That's why the Morph Ball in Metroid 3 is in the same place it was in Metroid.

Majora's Mask was meant to take place in an alternate dimension, which is why no one knows about the Hero.

[BountyHunterSAx]

That's an interesting theory, but I find that unlikely. In Prime1/2/3, she definitely kept the stuff she took off the planet - or at least enough of it that one can assume she wasn't paying respects to the Chozo people.

I haven't beaten Prime 3 yet, but it's entirely possible - since Prime predates the other Metroid games, that the wonderful bounty hunter learned a lesson and started returning the artifacts in met/return of samus/super met....but again, I doubt it. They were after all intended for her to use; or at least that's what the games seem to imply since the chozo statues often help you find them or point you in their direction.....particularly in Metroid Zero Mission.

-AHMAD

[Ryushikaze]

In Metroid there's normally an explanation; for example, in Prime you start out with some stuff and take damage and lose it. Same for Prime 2. But other times, there is absolutely no reason Samus has lost all her items.

I always figured that the Galactic Federation confiscated her extra non-regulation gear. Sort of a "Good job for killing the badguys! Now we're taking all this alien tech so we can research it and fuck you over eventually with parasites and shit. Weyland-Yutani-Halliburton Conglomocorp recognizes your achievements! Consider yourself a Hero."

I doubt the US government would let me keep all the cool alien stuff I'd pick up if I saved the world.

Personally, I can see Samus handing it over half the time. She's pretty pro-federation from what I can recall, so like she handed over the baby metroid, I can see her handing over Chozo tech for federation study, or alternately putting it back where she got it to respect the Chozo or whomever's it is. The more esoteric bits of it, anyways, like the lightsuit. She keeps standard stuff for herself, but tends to work it to breaking.

As for Link in Wind Waker, most people didn't even know what was going on, and he's not exactly going around making a big deal of what he had done.

.EXE's Netto definitely deserved a lot more recognition than he gets in the games (he gets a lot more in the Manga, though he's also regarded with suspicion in the manga for several reasonable reasons, like channeling uberviruses on occasion).

Rock Volnut's also an unsung hero. Even setting aside that no one knows about his true exploits, he still did quite a lot of noteworthy deeds during the course of his adventures, yet the information never seems to pass further than the town border.

[Darth Yoshi]

True enough. Another idea I had was that each upgrade has two components—software and hardware, if you will. Without one or the other, the upgrade is useless. So while Samus keeps the hardware, the software expires or something, leaving her to find new software. Considering the download rooms in Metroid 4 and the fact that the second suit in Metroid 0 only has what you manage to collect before the first suit got shredded, that might actually be the best theory.

[Adrian Laguna]

Majora's Mask was meant to take place in an alternate dimension, which is why no one knows about the Hero.

I figured Majora's Mask takes place in the same world as OoT, but there's a good reason nobody knows why he's the hero. The end of OoT can have two interpretations, one is that Link is made young again in the present, and the other is that he's sent back to the past. As a reward for saving Hyrule, Link is given back the 7 years he lost.

If you go by the first interpretation the the nobody is going to believe the Link is the Hero of Time because he's too young. It's like meeting a 14 year-old named Eddie Rickenbacker in 1920. Now, it is odd that nobody brings-up the fact that Link has the same name as the guy who saved Hyrule from the evil Ganondorf, but that still doesn't mean that nobody knows about it.

The second interpretation is simpler and more complex. The reason why nobody recognizes Link as the Hero of Time is because he hasn't done any heroing yet from the perspective of everyone save himself. If Link was sent to the past, then now there would be two Links, the one who just arrived from the future, and the one in his past who is now in sleeping the Sacred Realm. The present Link must obviously leave Hyrule for the same reason his past is in the Sacred Realm, neither of them is strong enough to oppose Ganondorf, and being in the way of his rise to power will result in nothing but their deaths. So the present Link leaves, confident that his past self will triumph over evil in the future.

Isn't time travel great? Link must have been thinking, "Oh come on, not this shit again" at the beginning of MM.

Either way, Majora's Mask can take place in the same universe as Ocarina of Time without Link being seen by everyone as the legendary Hero of Time.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Hmm. I know it constantly kept crashing on me back then, and a few dialogues were completely unfinished. The translation was horrible as well. But that might just be the german version.

A bad translation would absolutely kill Torment. The game's real value is in the writing, the story and the characters and the endless dialogue, and to have that spoiled is to ruin the entire game completely. The actual gameplay is, in fact, mediocre at best in my eyes but I never liked the Infinity Engine. Anyway, if you ever do play it again, play the English version. I bet it'd be a whole new experience for you and a much better one.

Honestly, I'd say Torment should have been a novel if not the fact that it would about 5000 pages long or something stupid like that. It's certainly better than crud like 'Elminister in Hell' by a long, long margin.

[Master of Ossus]

True enough. Another idea I had was that each upgrade has two components—software and hardware, if you will. Without one or the other, the upgrade is useless. So while Samus keeps the hardware, the software expires or something, leaving her to find new software. Considering the download rooms in Metroid 4 and the fact that the second suit in Metroid 0 only has what you manage to collect before the first suit got shredded, that might actually be the best theory.

I hate demo versions of software.

@Crazy_Vasey, I agree that a bad translation would destroy Torment. There's some GREAT dialogue in that game--maybe the best I've ever seen in any game.

Also...

[Darth Yoshi]

I figured Majora's Mask takes place in the same world as OoT, but there's a good reason nobody knows why he's the hero. The end of OoT can have two interpretations, one is that Link is made young again in the present, and the other is that he's sent back to the past. As a reward for saving Hyrule, Link is given back the 7 years he lost.

If you go by the first interpretation the the nobody is going to believe the Link is the Hero of Time because he's too young. It's like meeting a 14 year-old named Eddie Rickenbacker in 1920. Now, it is odd that nobody brings-up the fact that Link has the same name as the guy who saved Hyrule from the evil Ganondorf, but that still doesn't mean that nobody knows about it.

The OoT epilogue quite clearly shows that time travel happened, so that's a no go.

The second interpretation is simpler and more complex. The reason why nobody recognizes Link as the Hero of Time is because he hasn't done any heroing yet from the perspective of everyone save himself. If Link was sent to the past, then now there would be two Links, the one who just arrived from the future, and the one in his past who is now in sleeping the Sacred Realm. The present Link must obviously leave Hyrule for the same reason his past is in the Sacred Realm, neither of them is strong enough to oppose Ganondorf, and being in the way of his rise to power will result in nothing but their deaths. So the present Link leaves, confident that his past self will triumph over evil in the future.

Of course, that begs the question, why are there two 10-year-old Links? If Hero-of-Time Link is physically sent back seven years, then he should be look 17.

Isn't time travel great? Link must have been thinking, "Oh come on, not this shit again" at the beginning of MM.

Either way, Majora's Mask can take place in the same universe as Ocarina of Time without Link being seen by everyone as the legendary Hero of Time.

The whole thing with MM was that everyone there was supposed to be a doppelganger of someone Link knew in Hyrule, in a whole mirror universe sort of manner. At least, that's what the pre-release publicity said (we all know how reliable that is).

Zelda timeline threadjack!

I hate demo versions of software.

Well, if Samus would only register her software, she wouldn't have to deal with it all the time.

[GuppyShark]

On the other hand, HotU for NWN was pretty hugely epic, although NWN sucked.

Pray tell me what was the reason for including the heroes from the stock game and even Aribeth if you couldn't even play your old hero? That always bugged me.

What a difference to BG2, where you were expected to import your old character.

What the hell, Thanas, you were supposed to continue with your original character.

[Adrian Laguna]

The OoT epilogue quite clearly shows that time travel happened, so that's a no go.

I came-up with that theory half-way through writing the post, so I'm not surprised it doesn't work.

Of course, that begs the question, why are there two 10-year-old Links? If Hero-of-Time Link is physically sent back seven years, then he should be look 17.

You played the game, yes? 17 year old Link goes back in time at least twice during the course of the game, and both times he comes out the other end as a 10 year-old.

The whole thing with MM was that everyone there was supposed to be a doppelganger of someone Link knew in Hyrule, in a whole mirror universe sort of manner. At least, that's what the pre-release publicity said (we all know how reliable that is).

I think that was just an excuse to recycle the character designs.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

What the hell, Thanas, you were supposed to continue with your original character.

Nah, not in HotU.

NWN OC: 1 - 20

SoU: 1 ~ 20
HotU (continued): ~15 - 30+

[Thanas]

On the other hand, HotU for NWN was pretty hugely epic, although NWN sucked.

Pray tell me what was the reason for including the heroes from the stock game and even Aribeth if you couldn't even play your old hero? That always bugged me.

What a difference to BG2, where you were expected to import your old character.

What the hell, Thanas, you were supposed to continue with your original character.

No, you couldn't in HotU. At least not storywise. The NPCs even comment on it, saying that the hero who saved Neverwinter (You in the stock game) simply disappeared. When you meet Aribeth, she does not remember you, nor do any other characters.

So why you may certainly import your character, storywise, you play a complete nobody with no previous ties to Neverwinter.

Which absolutely bugged me. I mean, why develop your character when he does not even matter anymore storywise.

[consequences]

There's a few solutions, even if you are looking for sequel potential.

The first and most obvious would be not throwing the untoppable universe destroying threat as the climax for the first one. Have the sequel set so that the bad guys know you are a badass, and trained appropriately before enacting their evil plot. To make the point, a bunch of losers suitable to the midgame of the prequel can be thrown under the juggernaut of destruction that is you amped party as an opener to the sequel.

The second would be the God of War depowerment route. Which actually worked fairly well, although this wouldn't be universally applicable.

There's the KOTOR route of same universe, different people. Of course, they stretched SoD with the three members that got reset.

Personally, I'd like to see one where atthe end of the first you achieve practical godhood, and the start of the second is you getting waylaid by a bunch of bigger nastier gods. As they bring you down and seal you away, you tear loose the smallest fragment of your power to imbue the new hero, who then goes on the inevitable stompfest eclipsing all your past deeds.

[Ryushikaze]

The OoT epilogue quite clearly shows that time travel happened, so that's a no go.

I came-up with that theory half-way through writing the post, so I'm not surprised it doesn't work.

Of course, that begs the question, why are there two 10-year-old Links? If Hero-of-Time Link is physically sent back seven years, then he should be look 17.

You played the game, yes? 17 year old Link goes back in time at least twice during the course of the game, and both times he comes out the other end as a 10 year-old.

Y'know, I've always entertained the idea that when Link grabs the Master Sword, he more or less possesses himself in the future, and when he places it back in the pedestal, his mind returns to him, and as a bonus, the sword sends things that young Link can use back to him.

The time between picking up and replacing the sword for the two links is but a moment (so that Young Link is only out for a moment, even if Adult Link spent a week adventuring), and that Link spends his seven years getting ready to possess himself to take care of Ganon as his young self.

Personally, I like the idea that Awakening also takes place during this time, but I have nothing to support that aside from Wind Fish/ Jabu Jabu similarities.

The whole thing with MM was that everyone there was supposed to be a doppelganger of someone Link knew in Hyrule, in a whole mirror universe sort of manner. At least, that's what the pre-release publicity said (we all know how reliable that is).

I think that was just an excuse to recycle the character designs.

Out of universe, yes, but in universe, it does stand.

[The_Last_Rebel]

I remember in Medal of Honor (original) and Medal of Honor:Frontline, Jimmy Patterson began to really pick up noteriety amongst the Germans. (The two games were intertwined). A number of times in the original a number of Germans will recognize you and exclaim "It's Jimmy Patterson!"(audio on the PSX was awesome) and on a couple of levels in Frontline you find wanted posters with Patterson's face on it!

[Darth Yoshi]

You played the game, yes? 17 year old Link goes back in time at least twice during the course of the game, and both times he comes out the other end as a 10 year-old.

Ergo, it's not physical time travel. Unless you can explain why Link reverts to his ten-year-old form.

I think that was just an excuse to recycle the character designs.

True, but SoD means there still needs to be an in-universe explanation.

[Praxis]

Majora's Mask was meant to take place in an alternate dimension, which is why no one knows about the Hero.

I figured Majora's Mask takes place in the same world as OoT,

No. MM was clearly stated to have taken place in the world of Termina, not Hyrule.

My impression has always been this. After Link defeats Ganondorf 7 years in the future, he puts the Master Sword back, goes back to Hyrule in the past as a child, and gets out of the way to let events play out properly.

So Young Link leaves Hyrule and somehow ends up in Termina.

Meanwhile, back in Hyrule Ganondorf is busy running around killing everyone with the Triforce of Power, while Zelda goes into hiding as Shiek and Link knows that in seven years his future self will come back and kick Ganon's butt.