America's Fourth Largest City

[Darth Wong]

You seem to be implying that I am against trying to close the class divide, or to mitigate the problems of the class divide. If I interpreted that statement correctly, then it seems to be an odd one to make, especially as I am on-record as supporting at least one expensive method of mitigating the class divide.

Then could you explain what the fuck point you're trying to make here then? It seems as if your only point is "economic factors are not one hundred percent of the cause of increased crime rates", which is nothing more than a nitpick since the underlying argument would remain the same: it's something that we need to do something about.

[Lonestar]

Then could you explain what the fuck point you're trying to make here then? It seems as if your only point is "economic factors are not one hundred percent of the cause of increased crime rates", which is nothing more than a nitpick since the underlying argument would remain the same: it's something that we need to do something about.

My point is that my "gives-a-damn-o-meter" is shockingly low when the economic factors are brought out as a defense for criminals.

[Darth Wong]

Then could you explain what the fuck point you're trying to make here then? It seems as if your only point is "economic factors are not one hundred percent of the cause of increased crime rates", which is nothing more than a nitpick since the underlying argument would remain the same: it's something that we need to do something about.

My point is that my "gives-a-damn-o-meter" is shockingly low when the economic factors are brought out as a defense for criminals.

And why the fuck should anyone give a damn what you give a damn about? You don't have a point; all you have is a red-herring.

[Netko]

...

I mean, aren't there several European countries that will imprison murderers for 20 years, whereas here we would put them away for life or kill 'em?

While your point is otherwise correct (the DP is banned by the EU, and life rarely actually means life), the 20 year maximum sentence is no longer correct. The closest is Norway with 21. The 20 years max was mostly a feature of post-communist governments in the early '90-ies which wanted to show their enlightenment and overall liberalism compared to dark communist times - in all of them, sooner or later, heinous crimes happened (usually multiple or especially brutal murders - in the Croatian example it was the murder of the murderer's wife, wife's lawyer, the presiding judge and the wounding of the court clerk leading to disability during a divorce proceeding), where society at large was outraged at such a low sentence, thus forcing the politicians (or politicians being populist) into raising the maximum sentence (usually to 30-40). Its still rare to have outright life sentences or even for the, commonly named "long-term prison sentence", to be fully served.

[Lonestar]

And why the fuck should anyone give a damn what you give a damn about? You don't have a point; all you have is a red-herring.

I was unaware I was not allowed to express a personal opinion on this board, especially when I have already agreed that economic factors do have an effect on causing criminality. You seem to be personally offended that I don't have sympathy for the poor, mistreated criminals who come from a lower-class economic background. I reserve my sympathy for the people they hurt.

If I have misunderstood the gist and true intent of your statement, then I apologize.

While your point is otherwise correct (the DP is banned by the EU, and life rarely actually means life), the 20 year maximum sentence is no longer correct. The closest is Norway with 21. The 20 years max was mostly a feature of post-communist governments in the early '90-ies which wanted to show their enlightenment and overall liberalism compared to dark communist times - in all of them, sooner or later, heinous crimes happened (usually multiple or especially brutal murders - in the Croatian example it was the murder of the murderer's wife, wife's lawyer, the presiding judge and the wounding of the court clerk leading to disability during a divorce proceeding), where society at large was outraged at such a low sentence, thus forcing the politicians (or politicians being populist) into raising the maximum sentence (usually to 30-40). Its still rare to have outright life sentences or even for the, commonly named "long-term prison sentence", to be fully served.

Maybe a German can clarify, but I seem to recall that "Dying with dignity" is a "right" in Germany, and the German judicial system at one point decided that dying in jail wasn't "dignified", and therefore criminals who got life should be released early enough so they don't die in prison. I believe this came up in the thread about the release of a Red Brigade member in Germany.

[Darth Wong]

And why the fuck should anyone give a damn what you give a damn about? You don't have a point; all you have is a red-herring.

I was unaware I was not allowed to express a personal opinion on this board

Would you like a fucking violin for your sob story, asshole? This is the same kind of chickenshit persecution game that Bill O'Reilly plays. "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

You seem to be personally offended that I don't have sympathy for the poor, mistreated criminals who come from a lower-class economic background. I reserve my sympathy for the people they hurt.

If I have misunderstood the gist and true intent of your statement, then I apologize.

I don't give a fuck whether you personally have sympathy for them, moron. What part of this do you not understand? We're talking about a social problem and ways to address it, not "what does Lonestar care about most in this world".

[Lonestar]

Would you like a fucking violin for your sob story, asshole? This is the same kind of chickenshit persecution game that Bill O'Reilly plays. "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

I'll take that as a "Yes, I fully acknowledge that you've conceded that economic factors affect the creation of criminals. I am indeed just badgering you for the Hell of it."

Fortunately, what creates criminals is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is why is our(The U.S.'s) prison system so large. Since the '90s were a period of economic expansion in the States, yet saw an increase in the prison system, then pointing to economics for an increased prison population means jack and shit. The better answer is that we(The United States) have opt to (1)Prosecute crimes with much tougher punishments than in most Western Countries (2) The biggest demographic in prison, the young poor African-American male, is coincidently the target of the "glorification" of criminality through the Gangsta culture, and (3) Setting out specific law enforcement initiatives where long-term imprisonment is the goal. All three forces have taken off in the past 20 years, despite economic good times in the '90s(times so good the Armed Forces struggled to meet recruitment goals).

I don't give a fuck whether you personally have sympathy for them, moron.

Really? Because you seem to be pretty fired up about it.

What part of this do you not understand? We're talking about a social problem and ways to address it, not "what does Lonestar care about most in this world".

No, we're talking about why the United States' prison population is so big, not the creation of criminals. And I've already said that, despite violent crime decreasing, and the increased economic well being of the country in the '90s, we had/have had a rising prison population. Why? Well, Holy shit, it couldn't be because we're sending guys to jail for 5 years for not registering a gun(as opposed to before EXILE-type programs were implemented the charges were often dropped, or much reduced)? Or sending some guy to prison for having a baggie of Marijuana on his person(after all, "who could be against the War on Drugs? Only stoners!" ). But that's all good, because Snoop Dogg is telling you that's a cool thing to do.

[Darth Wong]

I'll take that as a "Yes, I fully acknowledge that you've conceded that economic factors affect the creation of criminals. I am indeed just badgering you for the Hell of it."

No, I'm telling you that in an argument about fixing sociological problems, your personal level of sympathy for the participants is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. What part of this are you too fucking stupid to understand?

Fortunately, what creates criminals is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is why is our(The U.S.'s) prison system so large. Since the '90s were a period of economic expansion in the States, yet saw an increase in the prison system, then pointing to economics for an increased prison population means jack and shit. The better answer is that we(The United States) have opt to (1)Prosecute crimes with much tougher punishments than in most Western Countries (2) The biggest demographic in prison, the young poor African-American male, is coincidently the target of the "glorification" of criminality through the Gangsta culture, and (3) Setting out specific law enforcement initiatives where long-term imprisonment is the goal. All three forces have taken off in the past 20 years, despite economic good times in the '90s(times so good the Armed Forces struggled to meet recruitment goals).

Between 1975 and now, the gap between rich and poor has increased dramatically. In the year 2005 alone, nationally reported incomes rose 9%, and the bottom 90% of wage earners saw none of this. Has there been a correspondingly large increase in these other factors you mention?

I don't give a fuck whether you personally have sympathy for them, moron.

Really? Because you seem to be pretty fired up about it.

I'm fired up about your idiotic insistence that it is somehow relevant to the thread.

What part of this do you not understand? We're talking about a social problem and ways to address it, not "what does Lonestar care about most in this world".

No, we're talking about why the United States' prison population is so big, not the creation of criminals. And I've already said that, despite violent crime decreasing, and the increased economic well being of the country in the '90s, we had/have had a rising prison population. Why? Well, Holy shit, it couldn't be because we're sending guys to jail for 5 years for not registering a gun(as opposed to before EXILE-type programs were implemented the charges were often dropped, or much reduced)? Or sending some guy to prison for having a baggie of Marijuana on his person(after all, "who could be against the War on Drugs? Only stoners!" ). But that's all good, because Snoop Dogg is telling you that's a cool thing to do.

Oh yeah, nobody ever glorified criminality in pop culture before black gangstas came along, right? I guess it's OK to glorify criminal behaviour when it's Italians doing it. And as for these other factors, if the scale of this problem is as large as the HUGE (>3x) increase in the share of the nations' wealth held by the wealthy class in the last 25 years, let me see the evidence.

[Lonestar]

No, I'm telling you that in an argument about fixing sociological problems, your personal level of sympathy for the participants is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. What part of this are you too fucking stupid to understand?

Plenty, which is why I'm so curious as to why you're hanging on to it.

Between 1975 and now, the gap between rich and poor has increased dramatically. In the year 2005 alone, nationally reported incomes rose 9%, and the bottom 90% of wage earners saw none of this. Has there been a correspondingly large increase in these other factors you mention?

You mean has there been an increase in the prosecution fo the Drug war and stuff like EXILE? Yes, yes there has. Gangsta Culture? How much "Gangsta" culture was there in 1975?

I'm fired up about your idiotic insistence that it is somehow relevant to the thread.

You're the one that has opted to continue to harp about it after I said that economic factors are involved in the creation of criminality, not me.

Oh yeah, nobody ever glorified criminality in pop culture before black gangstas came along, right? I guess it's OK to glorify criminal behaviour when it's Italians doing it.

Really? The Italians had an entire fucking channel devoted to all things mobster?

And as for these other factors, if the scale of this problem is as large as the HUGE (>3x) increase in the share of the nations' wealth held by the wealthy class in the last 25 years, let me see the evidence.

Conceded. All I can find on Project EXILE(that is, that is not from Wikipedia, which only talks about the Virginia program in any event) are a shitton of D.A. websites, all of which are talking about how great it is without providing numbers(and ti seemed as if most of them said "numbers from 2001 are not being provided, contact your local D.A. office for more .

As for the War on Drugs, well...Even the Cato Institute thinks this is a bad idea, one of their reports suggests that 60% of our (Federal)prison population is there because of drug-related offenses.