40K misc numbers and analysis thread

[white_rabbit]

The "holy grail" of power generation at the moment for the IoM is the squat technology likely most responsible for Ganymede, IIRC my Ork and Squat Warlords book correctly, this is responsible for the Contagion.

Warp Fission, flaring off warp stuff from a stable rift

[andrewgpaul]

That sounds about right.

Looks like Ork and Squat Warlords is the origin of that. Was it talking about the Squat superheavy vehicles?

[Connor MacLeod]

Speaking of power generation:

These are ship based power generation estimates. They arne't based on any one set of quotes, but approximations based on extrapolated data from the evidence, primarily the novels, and in much the same vein as the SW ship vessel power plant outputs. Its meant to indicate probable power generation based on estimated masses and accelerations given in other sources (mostly novels, such s Grey Knights, ,Eye of Terror, Sabbat Martyr, and others.) and infer probable firepower as well.

The power output is based on much the same principles as outlined in Curtis Saxton's SWTC pages here and here as well as Nyrath's atomic rockets page. The premise behind the calc is based upon the principles of rocketry- that a given mass and acceleration of a ship requires the expulsion of exhaut at a certain velocity (given equal force/momentum between exhaust and starship.) The former may not have much energy from the process, but the latter can possess much more energy. The reactor(s) must, naturally, provide the power to feed the engines.

Calcs are given based on the estimated masses for ships of a given size range/category. Dimesnionally, I assume that these ships are roughly rectangular, with their height being 1/5 their length, and their widths 1/6 that length. Composition is assumed to be iron, and the volume is 99% empty (IE Air). Note that the novels give other masses, but they tend to be much lighter for the sort of dimensions given (Much like the problem with Honorverse vessel's masses and their dimesnions.) Therefore, they are disregarded. Likewise, I disregard the probable fact that 40K ships could be composed of better materials. Their extreme durability does point to rather high-mass or high-density materials in their construction, but to be conservative (As well as not knowing the actual mass/densities) this is disregarded.

light destroyer (500 meters) - 328,000 tons

heavy destroyer/light frigate (1500 meters) - 8.9 million tons

heavy frigate/light cruiser (~2000 meters) 21 million tons

heavy cruiser (3000-4000 meters) 71 million tons

battlecruiser (4000-5000 meters) 168 million and 328 million tons

battleship (6000-7000 meters) 567 million and 900 million tons.

As far as acceleration goes, I generally stick with between hundreds to thousands of gravities (e3-e4 m/s^2). It could be higher (thousands to tens of thousands) based on certain examples and almost certainly is: however, I am trying to play somewhat conservative with the calcs much like I am with mass. I'll stick with between 100 and 10,000 gravities accel - this is a broad enough figure given the masses.

Exhaust velocity is assumed to be around 99% c

light destroyer (500 meters) sustained reactor output: 9e19 to 9e21 watts exhaust momentumt: 3.3e11 to 3.3e13 kg*m/s

heavy destroyer/light frigate (1500 meters) sustained reactor output: 2.4e21 to 2.4e23 watts exhaust momentum: 9e12 to 9e14 kg*m/s

heavy frigate/light cruiser (~2000 meters) sustained reactor output: 6e21 to 6e23 watts exhaust momentum: 2.1e13 to 2.1e15 kg*m/s

heavy cruiser (3000meters) sustained reactor output: 1.9e22 to 1.9e24 watts exhaust momentum: 7.1e13 to 7.1e15 kg*m/s

battlecruiser (4000 meters) sustained reactor output: exhaust momentum: 1.7e14 to 1.7e16 kg*m/s

battlecruiser (5000 meters) sustained reactor output: 4.5e22 to 4.5e24 watts exhaust momentum 3.3e14 to 3.3e16 kg*m/s

battleship (6000 meters) sustained reactor output: 1.5e23 to 1.5e25 watts exhaust momentum: 5.7e14 to 5.7e16 kg*m/s

battleship (7000 meters) sustained reactor output: 2.35e23 to 2.5e25 watts exhaust momentum: 9e14 kg*m/s to 9e16 kg*m/s

Note that while I am basing my calcs off of data provided by SWTC and Atomic Rockets, there are distinctly different implications for these performance figures than those sites may suggest. For example, we know Star Wars ships carry many times the ship's own "empty mass" in fuel because of the extreme acelerations involved, and this naturally makes the ships more massive for the purposes of the calcs. However, given some of the 40K ship's performance (operational endurance - ie how much fuel is carried, as well as the higher-end accel figures, particularily beyond 10,000 gee calcs) it becomes rather impractical to carry huge stores of fuel.

Moreover, the quirky nature of plasma reactors from various sources seems to reinforce the idea tht it is not a "normal" reactor.Extremely (insanely?) long operational durations, little/no fuel input, implied connections to extradimensional power sources (zero point, the Warp, etc.) It's probably more accurate to call plasma reactors "hybrid" power sources. They may utilize some sort of sophisticated reactor system (probably annihilation, given the evidednce.) that is further amplified/boosted by access to an extradimensional power source (such as the Warp.) the "reactor" component probably acts as a catalyst to tapping a more powerful source of energy. This would make it similar in purpose/function to Naquadah in the stargate universe. This also allows 40K ships to have their established performance/endurance without obscene fuel/mass penalties,

Note that, reasonably speaking, this should also represent (roughly within an order of magnitude) the amount of energy the guns could output as well (much like with Star Wars, they are bound to be the most energy-intensive devices right behind engines.) And given that we know some guns have a recharge rate, and others can divert "full power" to certain weapons (Ie lances, as per the rennie BFG novels, nova cannon, etc.) this is a reasonable assumption.

Edit: This is also consistent with the "stellar scale" outputs implied in Execution Hour for a heavy cruiser (from the warp drives.)

[Luzifer's right hand]

Note that the novels give other masses, but they tend to be much lighter for the sort of dimensions given (Much like the problem with Honorverse vessel's masses and their dimesnions.) Therefore, they are disregarded.

What kind of masses are we talking about?

[Ender]

I think the assumed density is far too low. If anything I'd start with the average density as that of water and work from there, forget this fraction empty fraction solid stuff.


Can anyone provide that image of the Ork population of the galaxy? The one where the Milky Way is one big shot of varying shades of green?

[Connor MacLeod]

Note that the novels give other masses, but they tend to be much lighter for the sort of dimensions given (Much like the problem with Honorverse vessel's masses and their dimesnions.) Therefore, they are disregarded.

What kind of masses are we talking about?

1 million ton battleship (6.4 km long) in Eye of Terror.

100,000 ton Idolator Raider (which IIRC are around 1 km long) in Execution Hour

a 400,000 tonne ship of unknown type (presumably larger than escort given the name) in Eisenhorn.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think the assumed density is far too low. If anything I'd start with the average density as that of water and work from there, forget this fraction empty fraction solid stuff.

I was being deliberately conservative. If the masses are too small then you just mulitply the energy figure by a nubmer to reach the mass. I'd figure it could be 5-10x larger easily than what I calced, possibly more.

10x figure would put:

light destroyers in the e20-e22 watt range

heavy destroyers/light frigates in the e22-e24 watt range

heavy frigate/light curisers in the e22-e24 watt range

Heavy cruisers in the e23-e25 watt range

Battlecruisers in the e23-e25 watt range (again)

Battleships would easily go into the e24-e26 watt range.

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 million ton battleship (6.4 km long) in Eye of Terror.

100,000 ton Idolator Raider (which IIRC are around 1 km long) in Execution Hour

a 400,000 tonne ship of unknown type (presumably larger than escort given the name) in Eisenhorn.

That's indeed rather low...

I admit that I think it's rather strange to base power-generation calculations on acceleration, the drives used in most SF stuff are magic drives which can pull a huge number of gravities without killing the crew after all.

[white_rabbit]

1 million ton battleship (6.4 km long) in Eye of Terror.

100,000 ton Idolator Raider (which IIRC are around 1 km long) in Execution Hour

a 400,000 tonne ship of unknown type (presumably larger than escort given the name) in Eisenhorn.

That's indeed rather low...

I admit that I think it's rather strange to base power-generation calculations on acceleration, the drives used in most SF stuff are magic drives which can pull a huge number of gravities without killing the crew after all.

While I certainly wouldn't discount Crazy Voodoo Magic as a vital component of Imperial drive and power systems, when they produce vast, miles long streams of ejected material, its a fair bet thats whats moving them.

[Rye]

Isn't promethium involved somewhere in starship fuel, too? I seem to recall Cain saying so in Caves of Ice, I think.

[white_rabbit]

Isn't promethium involved somewhere in starship fuel, too? I seem to recall Cain saying so in Caves of Ice, I think.

Promethium is very likely another catchall term for liquid fuels, sometimes its just plain old oil, other times its sucked out of a gas-giant.

Starship "fuel" has also been described as supercompressed stellar material...so its unlikely to be all the same thing

"Cold Fusion " makes an appearance in the latest Gaunts Ghosts book, although its a little questionable, interestingly a technologically inclined Guardsmen can recognise the tech from schematics.

[Connor MacLeod]

Isn't promethium involved somewhere in starship fuel, too? I seem to recall Cain saying so in Caves of Ice, I think.

checking caves of ice (At least the parts dealing with promethium direclty) only indicate "spaceport cargo haulers" which can mean alot of things. Other novels do mention atmospheric and space-capable fighters using promethium in some fashion, and some shuttles/dropships evidently do so as well.

It's not exactly unrealistic in the Imperium's circumstances. Promethium has a demonstrably (on numerous occasions) higher energy density than many conventional chemical reactions, which does much to alleivate the problems of "chemical thrust" (Promethium easily meets the 60 MJ/kg requirement for escape velocity from an earthlike planet, ,for example.)

For shuttles, dorp ships, aerospace fighters, and other "simple" means of conveyance, this makes alot of sense. And amny of those can qualify as a starship . Some cargo ships or tankers can reach 500 meters, and some shuttles can reach 300 meters easily. Nevermind how big some fighters or shuttles get, and those can all qualify as "spaceships".

There's also the possibility that some of thsoe craft use "dual propulsion" means.

We know that really big ships (Cruisers, battelships, and escrots) invariably run on plasma reactors (which is at least annihilation reaction grade, if not something more exotic as well), so promethium (if used) would be at least a secondary/tertiary power source.

[Connor MacLeod]

That's indeed rather low...

The most reliable/accurate was "Iron Hands" where a space marine strike cruiser is described as "multi-megaton (multiple millions of tons) which while still tiny, is more plausible than the "less than million ton" cruisers or escorts. Fortunatley there is an element of ambiguity to all that makes retconning fairly simple.

I admit that I think it's rather strange to base power-generation calculations on acceleration, the drives used in most SF stuff are magic drives which can pull a huge number of gravities without killing the crew after all.

Why? SBoth SW ion engines and 40K plasma engines (For example) have been described as being basically a reaction drive. Given that for analysis to work under SoD the principles of rocketry in those universes must remain consistent with how they are for us, its quite entirely possible for us to use those principles to perform calculations. (Some of the assumptions may be unrealistic, ,such as efficiencies or perforamnce parameters, since IIRC RL ion engines are nowhere near as powerful as SW ion engines are.) but that's won't affect or ability to derive numbers.

only something absurd like "mass lightening" can alter the calc.

[Connor MacLeod]

Battlefleet gothic magazine #3

Page 11

Since then Imperial ship design has slowly evolved, but within the warp, where time does not follow a linear path, ships can survive untold millenia as if it were only yesterday.

Indication of the variance in the passage of time in the warp vs passage in realspace.

Page 11

Other Vengeances are scattered across Imperial Fleet reserves throughout Segmentum Obscurus and Segmentum Pacifiicus, as second-line units, replacement squadrons and mothballed as war reserves.

mention of multiple "fleet reserves" per Segmentum. Apparently such reserves comprise "second line units, replacement squadrons". Oddly, "war reserves" seem to be distinct from "fleet reserves", though what the purpose of such a distinction is I don't know.

Page 12

The Avenger is a hang-over from earlier days, and earlier fleet tactics. It is a gun boat, designed as a line breaker. The squadrons of Avengers would deploy behind a shield of escort vessels or light cruisers. AS the fleets closed the range the ywould acceelerate to full speed, racing into the midst of an enemy fleet. Once in the heart of the enemy it would sit, its heavy batteries blazing left and right, trading barrages at point blank range.

An indication of the sort of "earlier" fleet tactics of the Imperial Navy. This tends to smack alot more of "age of sail" type combat, whereas the latter 40K, while retaining certain AGe of Sail qualities, s eems to have moved more towards WW1/WW2 style combat (the "broadsides" can be likened to Pre-dreadnought mixed-calibre armaments, maybe with a slight nod to the interim "Ironclad" period, when broadside and turreted vessels were still both present.

Page 13

After a two day pitched battle around the planet's three moons which saw four of the traitor vessels destroyed, taking three Imperial cruisers with them the rebel squadron disengaged,

Small scale starship battle noted to last "two days". not sure if this was continuous firing or not (probably not), though the fact it was within the confines of a planetary system (the moons) suggests mobility was brief/limited.

Page 17

Rapid Strike vessels are crewed by the Chapter's serfs, overseen by a cadre of Techmarines and other specialists.

Even rapid stike vessles have at least a couple Techmarines aboard. One must wonder how many TEchmarines a chapter has - they'd easily form an entire company themselves at least (if not several.)

Page 17

The Gladius is usually the most numerous ship in the Chapter's fleet and will be the principle transport for smaller Space Marine forcees sent on misions which do not justify the deployment of a Strike Cruiser.

The Gladius if I remember its stats right, tends to match up toa Sword-class frigate, meaning frigates are the most common vessel in a Space Marine fleet (followed closely by the lance-variant Rapid strike vessel, probably..)

Page 19

A Space Marine is far too valuable to waste iin manning a gun or watching a surveyor screen, and so only the officers aboard av essel are likely to be Space Marines., as well as the few Techmarines who oversee the engines and perfoprm other mechanical duties. Almost all the ship's systems are run and monitored by servitors: half-human cyborgs who ar ewired into the vessel's weapons, ,engines and communication apparatus. There are also a few hundred Chapter sefs to attend to other duties.

There are at least 4-5 Space Marines aboard most warships. This probably refers to striek cruisers, since Battle Barges are freaking huge, and Rapid Strike vessels only carry a "cadre" of Techmarines. This helps us to get an indication of just how many strike cruisers a Space Marine fleet could possibly have.

Also note that serivtors comprise the vast majority of "crew" on a ship, far more in fact than on a Navy vessel. This serves as a form of "automation" in those ships. The crew requirements are as a result drastically cut - a "few hundred" (whereas a Navy Cruiser could need several thousand crew to operate, at least.)

If the Imperium ever got into a real nasty sitution and they needed more ships, this also points to the option that they can help reduce "crew requirements" for a ship by using more servitors (servitors are basically ubiquitos in the Imperium.) A (minor) downside to this would be reducing the number of crew an Imperium shhip would have in cases of boarding (either attacking or defending.)

Page 19

These serfs come from the Chapter's home plane tor the enclave they protect, many of them Novitiates or applicants who have failed some part of the recruiting or training process. These serfs are fanatically loyal to their superhuman masters, are indoctrinated into many of the lesser orders of the Chapter's Cult. Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action.

Chapter Serfs are virtual slaves, (but then according to the Uplifting PRimer, so are the Guard) but generally tend to be well treated, well educated, and well cared for by their masters. Including those who flunk out of Space Marine training as serfs also provides the Marines with a usuable This probably helps form a major partt of their "remarkable training". No idea on the superior weaponry, though sincec Naval troops use shotguns mainly, this may suggest hellguns, bolters, or shotcannon.

[Connor MacLeod]

This time, because the next couple BFG mags have such few quotes worth commenting on apiecee, I've decided to lump them all into one post

BFG Magazine #4

Page 10

Extremely fast vessels for their size, ,fast clippers utilize improved main drive engines that tkae up more than half the vessel's total mass. Most of the power from those engineering plats is directed to propulsion..

Unlike in naval ships, where the engines take up a third of the ship's volume, smaller vessels like fast clippers seem to give up half their internal volume ot engines.


Page 12

Goliath Class forge tenders are light crisers typically operated by the ADeptus Mechancius and have ben contracted by guilds, military units and planetary forcese to perform maintenance repairs on remote outposts and merchant vessels throughout the Imperium for endless centuries.

The Admech at least have indpendent (mobile) shipyard.repair facilities. q Also points to the admech again having their own ships.

Page 23

Also they were considered to be an easy target for any enemy who were actually able to get close to them, due to their lack of shields. Having power drained into the lance batteries came to a large degree at the expense of the shield generators, fine if you are standing off and firing but dangerous if you are taking parrt in a large scale engagement at close quarters.

The implication here is that lance firepower is tied to the allocation fo energy in other places (shields and engines) - so its not as much a matter as "all systems receiving the energy", it seems to be much more balancecd in combat (though they can allocate more power between systems should it be needed.)


Battlefleet Gothic Magazine #5


Page 3

And now, as you look even further away, you will see hundreds of tiny lights, moving between space stations thousands of miles away. This is the Imperial Navy. These are the High Protectors. The first line of defence. Hundreds of escorts and cruisers, constantly patrolling, with hundreds of ships of the line in constant readiness behind them.

This was speaking of the Cadian gate area. as I recall. "hundreds of escrots and cruisers" as well as "hundreds oif ships of the line (battleships") stationed to watch the Eye of Terror. Nevermind the space stations and whatnot.


Battleflet gothic magazine #6

Page 4

A notable trait of the Stronghold class [demiurg] is its employment of an array of electromagnetic fields around its prow to scoop up interstellar hydrogen. This is accelerated ot the rear of the ship to provide motive power in a ram-jet effect but the complex shielding it requires evidently producees numerous other benefits. This process is little understood by the Adeptus Mechanicus and they would dearly like to secure an intact Stronghold for investigation but thus far the opportunity has eluded them.

Demiurg ships seem to use some sort of hydorgen ramscoop, and its something the AdMech supposedly doesn't understand. (likely, as the only other vessel like it was owned by Inquisitor Thaddeus in the Soul Drinkers novels, and it was basically lost technology.)

Page 6

Super heavy transports are used to supporrt large fleet actions such as planetary assaults. Each is capable of carrying tens of thousands of men and thousands of vehicles.

"Super heavY" transports (size unknown) can each carry "tens of thousands of troops" (20,000 to 100,000, if taken literally) and "thousands" of vehicles (2,000-10,000.) It is not certain whether this refers to infantry + armoured mixed together, or if the "thousnads' of vehciles represent the Regiment's own attached vehicles (ie chimeras). In the latter case it would suggest they commonly expect to transport regiments with a high proportion of vehicles.

Page 7

Fuel supplies will often need to be shipped to an army, and a secure, constant supply is always a high priority for any ground commander. This supply is often carried on one huge tanker. A super heavy fuel transport can carry enough fuel to support an enitre campaign.

That's alot of fuel to be carried, no doubt about it. I'm also sure it implies one fucking huge ship/carrying capacity, since a ground battle can encompass thousands/tens of thousands of vehicles in large battles (if not more) and stretch for weeks/months easily.

[Cykeisme]

The numbers offered are hardly precise and it probably doesn't fit here, but it doesn't warrant a new thread either.. just wanted to point out the following paragraphs on a new page that came up for GW's new "Apocalypse" push:

he sheer size of the galaxy and its teeming hordes of inhabitants makes for battles of cataclysmic proportions. Billions of soldiers and civilians die in a single day of war at this scale of conflict, while hundreds of thousands of vehicles thunder across their corpses to lead the next advance. The material resources of entire star clusters are consumed in the engines of interstellar war. This galactic maelstrom of wholesale slaughter is the setting for your games of Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse.

Battles at the Apocalypse level have engulfed whole sectors of the galaxy over the millennia.

From 'ere: ++http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/ ... efault.htm


It's all patently ludicrous, why would they need more any than, say, two or three million guardsmen?!

[NecronLord]

It's all patently ludicrous, why would they need more any than, say, two or three million guardsmen?!

Would you want to try and occupy a hive world with less than billions of soldiers?

[Ford Prefect]

Would you want to try and occupy a hive world with less than billions of soldiers?

I would much rather occupy a Hive World with warships in orbit if I could. The Hives themselves are often horrendous meatgrinders for troops in the fluff, and when you think about what they are, this becomes patently obvious. It's urban combat on a scale that belies belief, with nooks and cranies on every angle, and with the advance generally having to be up (if I'm in a position to advance downwards, that's great, but I doubt it). You can use heavy armour in a Hive, but it would rapidly become a nightmare as you get further up, and as you get further up, the strength of resistance would be increasing. The only comfort is that the owners probably won't have all that many soldiers, but really ...

I wouldn't set foot in a Hive proper without a billion soldiers at my back, and only after I've lanced it a couple of times from orbit. if I had to take control of a world of them, with a whole bunch of these frakking things, I'd go and be an Ork.

[Teleros]

Actually if you're trying to occupy a hive I'd try and avoid the lance shots if at all possible. Conventional artillery does enough damage without you making a new Stalingrad on every floor .

You can use heavy armour in a Hive, but it would rapidly become a nightmare as you get further up, and as you get further up, the strength of resistance would be increasing.

I think it'd depend on the hive. In those with the worst underhives you would probably find the worst resistance near the bottom, where there's a warren of tunnels, unsafe construction etc etc etc. Higher up you get the wealthier parts of the hive, which tend to be better built, have larger spaces etc.

[Ford Prefect]

Actually if you're trying to occupy a hive I'd try and avoid the lance shots if at all possible. Conventional artillery does enough damage without you making a new Stalingrad on every floor

Maybe.

I think it'd depend on the hive. In those with the worst underhives you would probably find the worst resistance near the bottom, where there's a warren of tunnels, unsafe construction etc etc etc. Higher up you get the wealthier parts of the hive, which tend to be better built, have larger spaces etc.

The inhabitants at the tops of the Hives will also tend to have vastly superior weapons. Leman Russ tanks can actually survive hits from heavy, military grade melta weapons. in Connor's recent investigation into the Necromunda book Junktion, it is made clear that gangs do not frequently have such quality weapons available (the distinction between a ganger's melta and an upper level melta is quite distinct).

It might be easier to move around on the uper level with tanks, but the upper levels are also more likely to have lascannons.

[NecronLord]

Would you want to try and occupy a hive world with less than billions of soldiers?

I would much rather occupy a Hive World with warships in orbit if I could.

The High Lords say 'Recapture Necromunda' not 'Destroy it.' The PDF of a large hive world would run into billions, anyway. It's likely such forces are quite regularly mobilised.

The Hives themselves are often horrendous meatgrinders for troops in the fluff, and when you think about what they are, this becomes patently obvious. It's urban combat on a scale that belies belief, with nooks and cranies on every angle, and with the advance generally having to be up (if I'm in a position to advance downwards, that's great, but I doubt it). You can use heavy armour in a Hive, but it would rapidly become a nightmare as you get further up, and as you get further up, the strength of resistance would be increasing. The only comfort is that the owners probably won't have all that many soldiers, but really ...

I wouldn't set foot in a Hive proper without a billion soldiers at my back,

Precisely

and only after I've lanced it a couple of times from orbit. if I had to take control of a world of them, with a whole bunch of these frakking things, I'd go and be an Ork.

As an example, the Apoc Book has Waaagh Garaghak, used as a textbook example in the Schola Progenium as a typical Waaagh, which attacked the Deliverance system (Deliverence itself, in this instance, is the home of the Raven Guard, an industrial moon orbiting Kiavahr, a Forge or Hive world {Presumably ruled by the Raven Guard, they are a First Founding chapter after all}) consisted of, on its entry to the system, several billion Ork warriors, and a corresponding number of support vehicles, Stompas, Battle Fortresses and Gargants. Given that the Raven Guard, and Deliverence, still exist, to our knowledge, it seems likely that this Waagh was destroyed.

Interestingly, it seems like the Harakoni Warhawks operated in the same campaign, given that they're drop troops, I wonder if they're not nearby and inspired by Raven Guard doctrines. I will in fact, be considering re-painting my guardsmen as Harakoni, to go with my Raven Guard, now...

[Ford Prefect]

The High Lords say 'Recapture Necromunda' not 'Destroy it.'

I'm not going to destroy the place. Just ... ventilate a little.

As an example, the Apoc Book has Waaagh Garaghak, used as a textbook example in the Schola Progenium as a typical Waaagh, which attacked the Deliverance system (Deliverence itself, in this instance, is the home of the Raven Guard, an industrial moon orbiting Kiavahr, a Forge or Hive world {Presumably ruled by the Raven Guard, they are a First Founding chapter after all}) consisted of, on its entry to the system, several billion Ork warriors, and a corresponding number of support vehicles, Stompas, Battle Fortresses and Gargants. Given that the Raven Guard, and Deliverence, still exist, to our knowledge, it seems likely that this Waagh was destroyed.

This is yet more proof that the Raven Guard will ruin your shit when pressed to. I'm also fairly sure that Kiavahr is a Forge World (or close enough). Half remembering the Index Astartes for the Raven Guard, I think Deliverence was originally a mining world which supplied the factories on the world below, before Corax - naturally - ruined some shit and liberated the place.

As an aside, are there any numbers given in regards to the number of Orks Thraka has commited to the Armageddon campaigns?

I will in fact, be considering re-painting my guardsmen as Harakoni, to go with my Raven Guard, now...

That would be awesome.

[NecronLord]

As an aside, are there any numbers given in regards to the number of Orks Thraka has commited to the Armageddon campaigns?

Not that I recall. You might try Codex Armegeddon. Which I don't have...

I will in fact, be considering re-painting my guardsmen as Harakoni, to go with my Raven Guard, now...

That would be awesome.

Bought lots of Kommando Khaki today. Just gotta work out how I want to do the carapace armour...

[andrewgpaul]

As an aside, are there any numbers given in regards to the number of Orks Thraka has commited to the Armageddon campaigns?

From Codex: Armageddon:

"... in excess of 2,000 ships and at least twelve space hulks ..." Is pretty much it. Annoyingly, the old Armageddon3.com website appears to have finally vanished. It's just a redirect to www.games-workshop.com

[Connor MacLeod]

you can still look up the armageddon 3 site using any search engine that caches (like google), you just wont see alot of the neat pictures and you also can't browse the site beyond a specific page you look up.

I've got the Armageddon codex stuff archived somewhere (it gets repeated in alot of diff sources too, including at least oncee or twice in the BFG magazine and I think some of the other BFG materials, because I ran across duplicates.)

As I recall the Armageddon assault involved something like a dozen (IIRC rather powerful) warlords or leaders united under the WAAAGH directly attacking Armageddon. Depending on how many you figure per warlord that could easily run to single or double digit millions of orks.

The thing is, though, I don't think the Ork forces numbers were just a "one-time" thing, as I remember they kept bringing more and more Orks in (or the WAAAGH did at least). Moreover, I recall reading that there were also a number of attacks on surrouding worlds by Ork raiders.

Another place to check would be the Green Armageddon novels or Annihilation squad, the only novels immediately coming to mind that deal with Armageddon 3 itself that I can recall immediately.