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Patrick Degan
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Post by Patrick Degan »

MartianHoplite wrote:More on the economic reason why states will not provide law and law enforcement well. <snip long-winded bullshit>
You're full of shit. States and municipalities have organised and maintained police forces and a funcional judicial system for more than two hundred years and quite successfully as the general state of civil order and peace under free democratic government demonstrates. Otherwise, society would be in chaos.

You're also dead wrong about the exclusionary evidence rule, which is an extention of constitutional protections under the fourth and fifth amendments.
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Post by Covenant »

MartianHoplite wrote:I have no reason to fear that this would change simply because the police were absent from the equation. No one security firm would be able to overpower all the others and, knowing this, would be unlikely to try. The threat that its customers would flee to its competitors also provides a great deal of incentive to provide good service and refrain from violating their rights.
Eh? I don't know how this logic faollows.

Without hiring a firm, I have no security--none! They have a complete monopoly on my wellbeing, so what competition forces are at work here? And without regulation, what's to stop a monopoly from achieving a great control of security across a wide area? Or changing their policies after I've bought into their service? What keeps them from closing ranks, and companies commonly do, and not bothering to force the prices down? If security becomes a high-price commodity and I have no alternative, then it's far worse than the police.

You're putting a lot of misplaced divine faith in the marketplace if you think a security company is going to behave more benevolently than other industries. With a free alternative provided by a government, you have an automatic competition force in play already. As with a state-run healthcare system for all, it encourages competition between businesses and the government as well to provide a safe, effective, affordable service for everyone with the least amount of abuse.

You may whine and complain about an ineffective police force, but there's nothing more essential to the kind of safe anarchy you want than security, and outside of a government there's nothing really stopping an effective Private Security Firm from being an effective Extortion Firm.

The claims you have about competitive market pressures don't exist in those circumstances. Nobody is going to try to bid down to an affordable level for security without sacrificing quality. As a previous member of a security firm, the price you pay for hiring a cheaper agency (cheaper than ours, for example) were crappier people who were more likely to be violent, abusive, untrustworthy degenerates. And as a security officer, there comes a point where it's no longer worth it for me to work at the pay offered--so there is an inherent upward trend in the costs of security, which just leaves a lot of people completely without recourse. Talk about a great way to Rapture your Utopia.
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Post by Darth Wong »

MartianHoplite wrote:
If you think that the international relations of nation-states are a good model for the relations of individuals in a peaceful society, you must have well and truly slept through every history class in your life.
I don't think nation states provide law, security and defense any better than the nations that have tried it have provided food, shelter and clothing. That's why I support privatization of what is essentially a socialist industry.
Your personal opinion is not an argument. Unless you have some evidence to show that these functions are successfully taken care of with no governmental infrastructure, this is worthless.
There are very concrete reasons that individuals behave much worse when acting as part of state government than they would in their private dealings.
There are even more concrete reasons why individuals behave much worse without regulations governing their behaviour.
For one thing, state criminality is not generally regarded as such. Private murder is almost universally frowned upon. "Pre-emptive war" is discussed openly in polite company. Theft is thoroughly stigmatized, unless a government does it and calls it taxation. Bullying and assault are not tolerated unless committed by police officers. Even after the most egregious and indefensible acts of police brutality have incited widespread public condemnation, you will always find some goose-stepper willing to publicly defend such behavior. State agent simply aren't held to the same standards in their public conduct as they or anyone else is in their private conduct. I think nobody should be granted that same leniency, ever.
Oooh, you've figured out that government is not perfect. Congratulations, Sherlock. What you have utterly failed to do is prove your assertion that absence of government will perform equally well or better. Your reasoning is ironically similar to that of your ideological opposite, Karl Marx: you identify problems with society as it is currently structured, and then simply assume that your alternate system will be superior on every count, without a shred of evidence other than your say-so.
Furthermore there are very compelling economic reason why states will behave badly vis-a-vis each other and their own populations.
And there are even more compelling reasons why corporations will behave badly vis-a-vis each other and their own employees, never mind the citizens of their respective nation-states. And while citizen power over governments is more limited than it would ideally be, it is virtually nonexistent over corporations.
Do you feel that the present international order is actually working well?
No, absolutely not. However, if you're going to criticize anarchy in general, then you have to criticize the sort of anarchy that already exists, the anarchy between nation states, and advocate one world government. If that's not what you advocate then lets talk about how to create a better kind of anarchy.
That is no defense of your position. Once more: you are using the UN as an example of how well an anarchistic system can work. But it works very poorly, thus refuting your own position. Asking me to help you create "a better kind of anarchy" does not in any way justify your argument, nor does it address my rebuttal.
That's a wonderful theory which works beautifully, so long as all of the parties have roughly equal power. In a more asymmetrical situation, your model allows the strong to mistreat the weak. Has this ever occurred to you?
That's a problem that, unfortunately, can't be eliminated entirely by any system. I hope your not arguing that states have never abused the weak for the benefit of the strong?
That's a nice black/white fallacy you have there. I suppose you think that as long as no system can completely eliminate the problem, we might as well go with one that doesn't even try?
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

If you think that the international relations of nation-states are a good model for the relations of individuals in a peaceful society, you must have well and truly slept through every history class in your life.
I don't think nation states provide law, security and defense any better than the nations that have tried it have provided food, shelter and clothing. That's why I support privatization of what is essentially a socialist industry.
Then why do states that have established police systems, strong regulations of food standards and working standards, and a well-developed court system all have lower incidents of violent and non-violent crime than the cases in which there have been either the type of local control and essentially anarchism that you have been proposed, such as Beirut in the Lebanese Civil War, Somalia, and so forth? Why do the former have higher economic growth and higher standards of living, with more outside investment?

Why does Somalia, that paragon of lack of overarching governmental control, have a life expectancy of 48 years, as opposed to the United States' 78 years? Frankly, if you are going to make a claim that the provision of the state of services such as law enforcement and the like is comparable to that of Communist Era states to provide various necessities, and use it as a reason to abolish state control of law enforcement, then you have a huge hill of evidence that you need to provide, with very few examples.
There are very concrete reasons that individuals behave much worse when acting as part of state government than they would in their private dealings.

For one thing, state criminality is not generally regarded as such. Private murder is almost universally frowned upon. "Pre-emptive war" is discussed openly in polite company. Theft is thoroughly stigmatized, unless a government does it and calls it taxation. Bullying and assault are not tolerated unless committed by police officers. Even after the most egregious and indefensible acts of police brutality have incited widespread public condemnation, you will always find some goose-stepper willing to publicly defend such behavior. State agent simply aren't held to the same standards in their public conduct as they or anyone else is in their private conduct. I think nobody should be granted that same leniency, ever.
Yet not everybody embraces pre-emptive war; in fact, it's considered a contemptible position, at least in world human rights forums and official speeches. Nor do people think that bullying and the like by police officers is justified for the most part when it steps out of the line of fundamental human rights (of course, there's an element of "oh, it's that guy over there; ignore" as well, but people hardly look positively on bullying in polite conversation).

If anything, historically in the United States, it was the lack of state intervention in certain affairs of these supposedly more accountable individuals that resulted some of the greatest offenses to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Just look at the history of lynching in not only the South, but in parts of the Midwest as well; these are private, community level actions that arise to punish some perceived 'transgression' (usually that of some unfortunate visitor being black), and they persisted until public exposure to a larger audience and police and governments actually started cracking down on this behavior.
Furthermore there are very compelling economic reason why states will behave badly vis-a-vis each other and their own populations.
Aside from your nice general statements, where's your actual evidence that mistakes by the government from lack of accountability is more harmful than the complete absence of any state authority in terms of law enforcement? As I pointed out, the societies we have that lack any time of central government and central source of law and punishment a la Somalia tend to have greatly inferior economic status and life expectancy for their citizens than those that do have a central government with governmental law enforcement.
Do you feel that the present international order is actually working well?
No, absolutely not. However, if you're going to criticize anarchy in general, then you have to criticize the sort of anarchy that already exists, the anarchy between nation states, and advocate one world government. If that's not what you advocate then lets talk about how to create a better kind of anarchy.
Who says he wasn't criticizing the anarchy of nations? But - and this is the big but - simply criticizing the anarchy of nations doesn't mean that one is inevitably led to one-world government (which I am not necessarily opposed to, myself). We have firm examples of peace being kept for periods of time by treaties between states (like the Congress of Vienna in Europe, at least until the geopolitical dynamics changed with the rise of unified Germany).
That's a wonderful theory which works beautifully, so long as all of the parties have roughly equal power. In a more asymmetrical situation, your model allows the strong to mistreat the weak. Has this ever occurred to you?
That's a problem that, unfortunately, can't be eliminated entirely by any system. I hope your not arguing that states have never abused the weak for the benefit of the strong?
Yet in a civilized society with laws and law enforcement a la the United States, we actually have the capability to address these injustices via the legal system (take the Gideon v. Wainright case, which resulted in the right of the defendant to an attorney. Or protections for whistleblowers, at least until the current administration). Unlike in your libertarian society with no central law enforcement, where - as Mike pointed out, the strong can mistreat the weak because there is no authority to keep them grounded.

What, for example, in a society where you have to purchase your protection, is preventing someone from simply using their wealth to dominate the 'militias for sale' and oppress all his neighbors? You could argue that the neighbors would rally, but in reality, they are limited by resources, their own livelihoods, and difficulties in communications and the like (hence why peasant rebellions up until the twentieth century tended to fail catastrophically for the peasants involved).
I'm also curious as to what exactly is the difference between a mercenary company you pay for (I'm not going to deign to use your weasel words, lets call a spade a spade here. Blackwater and their ilk are mercenaries) and a protection racket.
A "protection" racket mainly just protects you from having your kneecaps broken by its own agents. Its a coercive relationship very much like the ones governments have with their subjects. Blackwater is neither a protection racket nor a private security firm. It's a mercenary force which serves as an auxiliary to a state military.
Blackwater only doesn't get away with it because they are under observation in the US and the like for bad behavior, and when they have been given immunity, it resulted in abuses like the one currently being bandied about in Iraq.
A better example would be the half a dozen large security companies that already do business in my home town. If I'm not satisfied with the dismal quality of protection the police offer me, I can contract with one of these firms for additional security. If I contract with one, the others don't bother me. If I don't contract with any, none of them bother me. They leave me be until I request their protection, but they're willing to provide it if I'm willing to pay. I have no reason to fear that this would change simply because the police were absent from the equation. No one security firm would be able to overpower all the others and, knowing this, would be unlikely to try. The threat that its customers would flee to its competitors also provides a great deal of incentive to provide good service and refrain from violating their rights. Corruption, though not impossible, is less likely than with state police because even a profitable special relationship with one customer, by jeopardizing all the others, is a threat to a company's viability.
Except, of course, that said private protection companies are under the observation of the federal government, and can and will be imprisoned by the police after trial in a court of law if they act out of line. What's stopping them from acting out of line in a society without that stick planted firmly behind their asses?

Or, to put it another, taking the police out of the equation, what is giving customers the option to flee to another contractor if they have no real official redress? I can easily see private security companies acting like they have in places like Zaire decades ago, where they set themselves up as little rackets over areas they control, and kill anyone who tries to contract with anyone else.

In a way, it's akin to saying that in a mafia-dominated area, where you get stuck paying protection money to a certain Mob, you're okay because, hey, you could always just go hire another Mob, right? Never mind that the particular Mob that is ripping you off probably is watching your neighborhood, and other Mobs will likely decide that it's too costly for them to jump in at the risk of hurting their members, or in taking big enough losses that their rivals will take advantage of their weakness.
Mind you, all this doesn't even posit the existence of an effective anarcho-capitalist legal system, which would make my rights even more secure against rogue security firms by allowing me to hold them civilly liable for their misdeeds against me.
Really? How is it going to make your rights secure, if there is no enforcement mechanism against the extortion mechanism I listed above? How do you plan to hold them liable, if they are strong enough to simply ignore or buy off the private courts you go to, much less any arbitrators of disputes? Write a strongly worded letter?
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Post by anybody_mcc »

MartianHoplite wrote:A "protection" racket mainly just protects you from having your kneecaps broken by its own agents. Its a coercive relationship very much like the ones governments have with their subjects. Blackwater is neither a protection racket nor a private security firm. It's a mercenary force which serves as an auxiliary to a state military.

A better example would be the half a dozen large security companies that already do business in my home town. If I'm not satisfied with the dismal quality of protection the police offer me, I can contract with one of these firms for additional security. If I contract with one, the others don't bother me. If I don't contract with any, none of them bother me. They leave me be until I request their protection, but they're willing to provide it if I'm willing to pay. I have no reason to fear that this would change simply because the police were absent from the equation. No one security firm would be able to overpower all the others and, knowing this, would be unlikely to try. The threat that its customers would flee to its competitors also provides a great deal of incentive to provide good service and refrain from violating their rights. Corruption, though not impossible, is less likely than with state police because even a profitable special relationship with one customer, by jeopardizing all the others, is a threat to a company's viability.

Mind you, all this doesn't even posit the existence of an effective anarcho-capitalist legal system, which would make my rights even more secure against rogue security firms by allowing me to hold them civilly liable for their misdeeds against me.
I will comment on this part. You are arguing that no one security company will be strong enough to overpower the rest, yet you forget about something like coalitions, there are circumstances, where for some of these security companies it will be profitable to temporarily ally against one other company. And no, people will not leave them for those "good" ones, because threats work quite well if you have something to lose. And once there are only a few left, they may find that the strategically best thing to do is partition town's territory, and we are back with small mafia-like "goverments". And this is not some imaginary scenario like yours. This happened countless times in history. And I do not see any mechanism in your "philosophy" that could prevent it or at least make it unprobable.
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Post by MartianHoplite »

Given how poorly this has worked in the case of Blackwater, I wouldn't be holding this up as a viable idea if I were you.
Blackwater was given immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law by the US Government! How does what essentially amounts to government issued free pass for misconduct prove a failure of anarchy?
You're full of shit. States and municipalities have organised and maintained police forces and a funcional judicial system for more than two hundred years.
Throughout that time police powers have grown continuously, but it never seems to be enough. There are always people saying we have to throw more money at the police for them to hire more and more officers. What's been the result?

In 1900 the murder rate was between 1 and 2 per 100,000.

Recently it has "fallen" to 5.7 per 100,000.

This is a strong negative correlation, though I'm not saying it's definitive evidence of causation.

If you want a more thorough argument that there is a direct, causative relationship between the amount of state law enforcement and crime rates (with a detailed explanation of the mechanisms), check out The Enterprise of Law, by Bruce Benson

You're also dead wrong about the exclusionary evidence rule, which is an extention of constitutional protections under the fourth and fifth amendments.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

anybody_mcc wrote:
MartianHoplite wrote:A "protection" racket mainly just protects you from having your kneecaps broken by its own agents. Its a coercive relationship very much like the ones governments have with their subjects. Blackwater is neither a protection racket nor a private security firm. It's a mercenary force which serves as an auxiliary to a state military.

A better example would be the half a dozen large security companies that already do business in my home town. If I'm not satisfied with the dismal quality of protection the police offer me, I can contract with one of these firms for additional security. If I contract with one, the others don't bother me. If I don't contract with any, none of them bother me. They leave me be until I request their protection, but they're willing to provide it if I'm willing to pay. I have no reason to fear that this would change simply because the police were absent from the equation. No one security firm would be able to overpower all the others and, knowing this, would be unlikely to try. The threat that its customers would flee to its competitors also provides a great deal of incentive to provide good service and refrain from violating their rights. Corruption, though not impossible, is less likely than with state police because even a profitable special relationship with one customer, by jeopardizing all the others, is a threat to a company's viability.

Mind you, all this doesn't even posit the existence of an effective anarcho-capitalist legal system, which would make my rights even more secure against rogue security firms by allowing me to hold them civilly liable for their misdeeds against me.
I will comment on this part. You are arguing that no one security company will be strong enough to overpower the rest, yet you forget about something like coalitions, there are circumstances, where for some of these security companies it will be profitable to temporarily ally against one other company. And no, people will not leave them for those "good" ones, because threats work quite well if you have something to lose. And once there are only a few left, they may find that the strategically best thing to do is partition town's territory, and we are back with small mafia-like "goverments". And this is not some imaginary scenario like yours. This happened countless times in history. And I do not see any mechanism in your "philosophy" that could prevent it or at least make it unprobable.
As I pointed out, he's ignoring that fact that without government law enforcement to keep the private security companies in his home town in line, there's nothing stopping them from simply making a 'gentlemen's agreement' to divide up the town in little quasi-fiefdoms, or to prevent said security companies from killing anyone who tried to leave for a better security company. That's basically what the feudal lords did; get people into a bonded relationship with the land and the lord(aka serfs), then either kill or beat up anyone who tried to leave for another lord or the towns.
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Post by MartianHoplite »

^positive correlation

Blast the no edit feature.

Exclusionary evidence rule. Explain how letting guilty criminal off on a technicality benefits society, protects the innocent, holds police accountable for their misconduct, or gives comfort to crime victims. I'm listening.

I'm all for police accountability, but I prefer that it be meaningful.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

MartianHoplite wrote:
Given how poorly this has worked in the case of Blackwater, I wouldn't be holding this up as a viable idea if I were you.
Blackwater was given immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law by the US Government! How does what essentially amounts to government issued free pass for misconduct prove a failure of anarchy?
Nice way to ignore the substantive point, moron, which was that your happy libertopia would constitute - wait for it- exactly the same type of condition! Hell, it would probably be worse in libertopia, since at least Blackwater could be damaged severely in public opinion and then punished by legislators after the fact, while in your proposed society there's nothing but word-of-mouth (which is notoriously unreliable outside of small societies; why do you think there are widespread con operations such as Amway and the like still thriving?).
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

MartianHoplite wrote:^positive correlation

Blast the no edit feature.

Exclusionary evidence rule. Explain how letting guilty criminal off on a technicality benefits society, protects the innocent, holds police accountable for their misconduct, or gives comfort to crime victims. I'm listening.

I'm all for police accountability, but I prefer that it be meaningful.
Because it reinforces the fact that the police actually will operate by the law, and keeps the legal system in order. I'm not arguing that there aren't abuses of this, but if you simply ride roughshed on procedure in order to 'get the bad guy', then you start to get people who become cynical of law enforcement and refuse to co-operate with law enforcement (particularly if a large proprotion of criminals are of a specific minority group).
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Post by Patrick Degan »

MartianHoplite wrote:
Given how poorly this has worked in the case of Blackwater, I wouldn't be holding this up as a viable idea if I were you.
Blackwater was given immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law by the US Government! How does what essentially amounts to government issued free pass for misconduct prove a failure of anarchy?
Which defeats the central point... how, exactly? Oh, that's right —it doesn't. Which means, simply, you're full of shit.
You're full of shit. States and municipalities have organised and maintained police forces and a funcional judicial system for more than two hundred years.
Throughout that time police powers have grown continuously, but it never seems to be enough. There are always people saying we have to throw more money at the police for them to hire more and more officers. What's been the result?
Maybe that's somehow correlated with the growth of population? And do you have an answer for how the Clinton approach of "throwing more money" to hire more police actually did help bring down crime statistics?
If you want a more thorough argument that there is a direct, causative relationship between the amount of state law enforcement and crime rates (with a detailed explanation of the mechanisms), check out The Enterprise of Law, by Bruce Benson
No, why don't we stick to the available facts of the matter provided by cold statistics? Y'know, facts and evidence?
You're also dead wrong about the exclusionary evidence rule, which is an extention of constitutional protections under the fourth and fifth amendments.
Exclusionary evidence rule. Explain how letting guilty criminal off on a technicality benefits society, protects the innocent, holds police accountable for their misconduct, or gives comfort to crime victims. I'm listening.
It prevents the state from simply manufacturing evidence wholesale as well as using coerced confessions as evidence at trial, asshole. Elsewise, you don't have a democratic society, you have a police state under which nobody's rights are safe and in which the innocent can be railroaded into a death sentence or long prison terms for crimes they didn't commit. It also provides incentive for cops and prosecutors to make certain their case is backed by solid evidence to better ensure a conviction.
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Post by Ender »

MartianHoplite wrote:Granted, I grew up in a rural area where people were already used to being largely self reliant,
Which means that the services and methods were intact and functioning in accordance with established heriarchy and the capitalist influence that apparently negates your other examples. In fact, you even state that it was the community coming together rather then people hiring each other to do it.

This is wholly different from independent groups going around charging for services in a free market environment like you want. That is why New Orleans was a perfect example of your society. Many roving bands were offering protection, and individuals bearing goods could enjoy their protecting in exchange for a share of those goods.
but there's no reason why the same community spirit couldn't be made to work elsewhere.
You mean despite the observable evidence to the contrary? Hell, at the top of page 2 is another example when the police went on strike in Toronto.

I would contend that major disruptions in communities that result in chaos and criminality can largely be traced to failed government policies that foster dependency.
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I don't think nation states provide law, security and defense any better than the nations that have tried it have provided food, shelter and clothing. That's why I support privatization of what is essentially a socialist industry.
So yeah, you definately slept through history class.

There are very concrete reasons that individuals behave much worse when acting as part of state government than they would in their private dealings.

For one thing, state criminality is not generally regarded as such. Private murder is almost universally frowned upon. "Pre-emptive war" is discussed openly in polite company.
What the fuck are you talking about? The fools who discuss Pre-emptive war are globally frowned upon and protested against.
Theft is thoroughly stigmatized, unless a government does it and calls it taxation.
Because heaven forbid you pay for the upkeep of the roads you use, the schools you attend, or the military that keeps you safe.
Bullying and assault are not tolerated unless committed by police officers.
Now, I'm torn between thinking that you never watch the news, or thinking that you are flat out lying to try to establish an argument. Everytime a police officer uses force it undergoes heavy review, and when excessive force is used punishment is dealt out.
Even after the most egregious and indefensible acts of police brutality have incited widespread public condemnation, you will always find some goose-stepper willing to publicly defend such behavior.
And when individuals bully and assault other individuals you will always find nutcases willing to defend them. Witness the Jena 6.

State agent simply aren't held to the same standards in their public conduct as they or anyone else is in their private conduct.
What the fuck are you talking about here?

more there are very compelling economic reason why states will behave badly vis-a-vis each other and their own populations.
Remember, as long as I don't state the reasons, no one can prove me wrong!

a problem that, unfortunately, can't be eliminated entirely by any system. I hope your not arguing that states have never abused the weak for the benefit of the strong?
The difference is the sheer magnitude of it and the fact that your system does not have a self correcting method for it. The state system does - they are called elections.

"protection" racket mainly just protects you from having your kneecaps broken by its own agents. Its a coercive relationship very much like the ones governments have with their subjects.
Well yeah, because that is what we folks in the military do, right?
A better example would be the half a dozen large security companies that already do business in my home town. If I'm not satisfied with the dismal quality of protection the police offer me, I can contract with one of these firms for additional security. If I contract with one, the others don't bother me. If I don't contract with any, none of them bother me. They leave me be until I request their protection, but they're willing to provide it if I'm willing to pay. I have no reason to fear that this would change simply because the police were absent from the equation.
Really? So none of them would gain market supremacy and establish a monoploy without the state restricting such?

security firm would be able to overpower all the others and, knowing this, would be unlikely to try.
I could rip this idea apart by citing basic military tactics, but it is easier to point out that power comes in more forms then just brute strength and there are other ways to force subservience. Nothing stops one from geting an equity firm to invest with them and simpy buy out their competitors, or from simply expanding and doing the same.
The threat that its customers would flee to its competitors also provides a great deal of incentive to provide good service and refrain from violating their rights. Corruption, though not impossible, is less likely than with state police because even a profitable special relationship with one customer, by jeopardizing all the others, is a threat to a company's viability.
And to counter this bizarre denial of reality, I will cite Microsoft.
Mind you, all this doesn't even posit the existence of an effective anarcho-capitalist legal system, which would make my rights even more secure against rogue security firms by allowing me to hold them civilly liable for their misdeeds against me.
And exactly who the fuck is going to make them be held accountable if they don't pay up in whatever kangaroo court you are able to pay to press your case?
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

This guy makes me think of the bullshit associated with the L.Neil Smith Gallatinverse bullshit that was pilloried a long time back (you know, the alternate timeline with libertopialand).

He also kind of reminds me of the way Intelligent Design advocates usually argue; he likes to point flaws in the current legal system along with strawmen and outright bullshit, then simply repeats that his belief is right without any evidence for the contrary, complete with the whole black-white bullshit.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

EDIT: Remove "for the contrary"
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K. A. Pital
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Post by K. A. Pital »

I don't think nation states provide law, security and defense any better...
Why is it that without nation states law, security and defense evaporate? Oh, right. Because you're subscribing to a bullshit theory.

What over-arching legal code would stop your "billions" of private contractors - who are essentially racket profiteers - waging constant war with each other over resources as the ultimate form of market competition? Law? What law? :lol: What stops one of them mercilessly crushing countless others, then using that to it's benefit? Right, nothing - America has been doing that for years in your so beloved "international" comparison.

Internationally, there are only so much nation-states, and an attempt at an over-arching legislation done through the UN. Yet, there's still imperialism and unilateral abuse, war for resources, thievery, bribery, looting.

Are you saying to me that breaking nation-states down into smaller entities would stop that, without a mechanism to enforce over-arching legislation?
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Ender (to MartianMoron) wrote:New Orleans was a perfect example of your society.
Indeed it was —a lawless, chaotic shithole in which no one's life was safe, including those police who were still on the job and were under siege in their own precinct houses. My city underwent a total breakdown of law and order the likes of which hadn't been seen since the American Civil War when the Confederates were compelled to abandon Richmond.
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Re: Dealing with ultra-libertarian idiocy?

Post by Kanastrous »

lPeregrine wrote:
1) They reject all historical examples of the abuses of capitalism and its failures to provide for the less-fortunate as "not a true capitalist society". Textbook fallacy, but they're able to point to some minor interference/assistance of government and keep bringing it up.
Maybe there's a counter-argument based upon the fact that progressive relaxation of government controls on private enterprise has in many arenas led to progressively worsening corruption and abuse-of-power, and progressively poorer pay/performance ratios on their part.

The natural extension being that further relaxation of regulation will produce further corruption and abuse, and that eliminating regulation will permit unrestrained corruption, and abuse.

If they believe that government interference is what breeds abuse, then see what they have to say to to the corrolation between reduced interference and increased abuse.

And if they complain that it's 'historical' and discount it, ask them if last week - Blackwater and the non-leash they're kept on by government, and Halliburton/Bechtel/et all and the non-leashes they're kept on - is too far back into history, to reach for examples.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Invite them to build their own city under the atlantic ocean, and inject themselves with sea slug cells
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Post by Santiago »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Invite them to build their own city under the atlantic ocean, and inject themselves with sea slug cells
How about a Batch 5 cocktail to wash it all down? Blow up the houses of Parliment too and wear a mask and stuff. To be honest though, V for Vendetta was an excelent comic book. In the game Bioshock the utopian vision turns hellish.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

yes but Prisoner 5 is not a libertarian, he's an anarchist, just wanting an end to facism. Second there's no story about what happens after he dies and his pet prostitute takes the mantle.
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Post by MartianHoplite »

Ok, some great points folks, keep it coming.

First of all.

Can we let the Katrina shit rest? Katrina is an example of a breakdown in civil government causing chaos and misery. I have cited a specific and driectly analogous counter-example that I experienced first hand, where a similar breakdown in civil government had no such effect. Katrina doesn't refute me. Fran doesn't refute you. These are just two potentially instructive historical examples.

Moving on to the meat of the argument.

Instead of addressing everyone's points individually, let me summarize what I consider to be the most important points that have been raised by recent posts.

1) Without a state, the situation would necessarily degenerate to a Hobbesian struggle that would favor the strong and rich. The poor and weak would have no recourse against aggression and exploitation.

2) Competition between security firms is insufficient to prevent corruption and abuse. Individuals have little or no control over corporations. Witness Blackwater.

3)Security firms would eventually, through natural market trends, open warfare or shady dealing, acquire extortionate, territorial monopolies and a patchwork of small, mafia-like states or feudal fiefdoms would arise. Worse still, a large territorial monopoly could result.

4)In contrast, elections and an independent judiciary guarantee government accountability and give even the lowliest citizen some protection against abuses by the state, businesses and other individuals.

I can respond to these points in depth. However, to dig up enough references and compose something worth posting might take me a few days. believe it or not, I actually do stuff in real life.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

MartianHoplite wrote: Can we let the Katrina shit rest? Katrina is an example of a breakdown in civil government causing chaos and misery. I have cited a specific and driectly analogous counter-example that I experienced first hand, where a similar breakdown in civil government had no such effect. Katrina doesn't refute me. Fran doesn't refute you. These are just two potentially instructive historical examples.
I can't believe you see no significant differences between a rural community in fuck-nut-nowhere being inconvenienced by a three days blackout and fallen trees and a major city being devastated in an event that lasted weeks. Have you ever been in a large city? From your post, I'll just assume you haven't and that you're around 12 years old.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

1) Without a state, the situation would necessarily degenerate to a Hobbesian struggle that would favor the strong and rich. The poor and weak would have no recourse against aggression and exploitation.
Yes, as proven by historical practice. Primeval tribal communism where no power structure exists is limited to extremely small societies and is totally non-scalable. Competition between communes would also evolve into a struggle of all versus all. Only delusional idiots may think that men would be respecting each other naturally independend of state law and social conditioning.
3)Security firms would eventually, through natural market trends, open warfare or shady dealing, acquire extortionate, territorial monopolies and a patchwork of small, mafia-like states or feudal fiefdoms would arise. Worse still, a large territorial monopoly could result.
Yes, exactly. Not just security firms; pan-sectoral economic monopolies could arise, controlling major stocks of goods from foods to security.
4)In contrast, elections and an independent judiciary guarantee government accountability and give even the lowliest citizen some protection against abuses by the state, businesses and other individuals.
Yes. A functioning legal system gives the citizen protection against the potential lawbreaking, infliction of damage, coercion, heavy trauma and murder by OTHER citizens, who are not fluffy bunnies.
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Post by PeZook »

Stas Bush wrote: Yes, as proven by historical practice. Primeval tribal communism where no power structure exists is limited to extremely small societies and is totally non-scalable. Competition between communes would also evolve into a struggle of all versus all. Only delusional idiots may think that men would be respecting each other naturally independend of state law and social conditioning.
I don't think that there ever was a documented tribe where no power structure existed. There's always a government, even if it consists of a single individual who solves basic conflicts and divides the food. Even in a family unit, the parents form a sort of a judicial system, set the rules and enforce them.

I like how this guy just assumes his description of a free-market mechanism preventing abuse by corporations holds true, when it's not actually supported by anything.

His scenario for competition between security companies just assumes that police and state regulations play no role whatsoever in relationship between customer and security firms, and states no justification for that other than "I think nothing would change."

A lot would change, boy. Even feudal lords had to answer to the king, if security companies don't have to answer to anybody other than market forces, then rule by gun becomes inevitable.

Picture that situation: You employ the services of security company A. This company does a poor job, and its employees are moronic thugs who do little to actually protect your property. So, you enter negotiations with security company B - their patrol answer time is somewhat longer, but their employees have a reputation for being real professionals.

Then thugs from A come and threaten to break your knees. What the fuck do you do then? If you placate them and then go to hire a competitor anyway, they come and break your fucking knees. If you are protected at that point, then...war! Happy times for everybody! If you're not, congratulations, you never walk again.

Such a nice place to live this society would be.
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Post by brianeyci »

I'm surprised nobody has attacked the underlying principles of libertarianism yet.

Mainly that if you can't afford it, you're fucked. Covenant kind of touched on this, but the problem is much more severe than no money no security. More likely it will be no influence not top 0.00...001% of the people in the world no security at all, or you have to be one of their peons or slaves.

Can anybody on this board afford a private security guard on call 24/7 right now? Police constables are generally the highest paid public servants. Of course, the rebuttal will be subscriber's fees. You pay let's say thirty bucks a month, and get a police officer on call. But how many people can afford that? Think of the average debt load of an American. Average Americans cannot afford the lifestyle they have right now! And what's to stop security contractors from leaving (this being a free market) and working only for whoever paid the most? Oops, the rich gangbangers and Donald Trump owns every single security guard in existence and they are beholden to him. Regulations to stop this? Rule of Law to stop the invisible hand of the free market? How? People will always quit their jobs and go to whoever pays more. The only counter is surprise, a public police force.

The consequence of course, is just like for private healthcare, that millions of Americans would no longer have policing at all. Crime would be rampant. No matter how you attack the economic or efficiency of private versus public, liberals should never concede that insuring a minority is better than insuring all since it's a huge concession to make in the first place.
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