I said:
Fax Modem1 (4:20:46 PM): Hmm, I just thinking about the last part, where after all the plagues, deaths, and tragedies had happened to him, Job asked God why he was doing this to him, and God said,"I don't know. There's just something about you that pisses me off."
x Roy The Boy x (4:21:11 PM): What? That's not how the story ends
Fax Modem1 (4:21:24 PM): According to Stephen King it is
x Roy The Boy x (4:21:38 PM): Obviously he hasn't read the story, because the real ending is just as satirical
Fax Modem1 (4:21:54 PM): something one of the characters says to another in Storm of the Century, I just always like the story
x Roy The Boy x (4:22:10 PM): Job: "Why did this happen God? I have done nothing wrong?"
God: "Who are you to question me? I'm freak'n God!"
Job: "oh...right...my bad"
x Roy The Boy x (4:23:30 PM): what's the story?
Fax Modem1 (4:23:35 PM): Your damn right, if I ruin your life horribly just for kicks because of a worthless bet, than you better kiss my butt and say you understand
x Roy The Boy x (4:24:58 PM): In God's defense he didn't ruin the guy's life
x Roy The Boy x (4:25:02 PM): he gave him a lot more
Fax Modem1 (4:25:47 PM): I'll make sure to give a man millions of dollars next time I kill his family
x Roy The Boy x (4:26:04 PM): *shrug*
x Roy The Boy x (4:26:08 PM): And God didn't kill his family
x Roy The Boy x (4:26:10 PM): Satan did
x Roy The Boy x (4:26:13 PM): God just didn't stop it
Fax Modem1 (4:26:48 PM): Allowing a crime to happen is just as guilty as doing it yourself
Fax Modem1 (4:26:57 PM): thank you modern court system
x Roy The Boy x (4:27:35 PM): Yeah, but that goes into the whole, "why do good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people
x Roy The Boy x (4:27:38 PM): "
Fax Modem1 (4:27:49 PM): Because God is a gambler?
x Roy The Boy x (4:27:55 PM): Why do nice people die at 15 and evil men live until 95
Fax Modem1 (4:27:59 PM):
x Roy The Boy x (4:28:03 PM): Why doesn't God look at theings the way we do
x Roy The Boy x (4:28:08 PM): mostly he's soveirgn
x Roy The Boy x (4:28:29 PM): which is a fancy way of saying, "God does what he wants because He understands what's happening a lot better than we do"
Fax Modem1 (4:28:47 PM): Still doesn't make it right
x Roy The Boy x (4:30:36 PM): Depends
x Roy The Boy x (4:30:59 PM): Depends on who's right
x Roy The Boy x (4:31:14 PM): My friend Maeghan exists today because her grandmother had an abortion
x Roy The Boy x (4:31:32 PM): Does her existance make the abortion right?
Fax Modem1 (4:31:36 PM): I don't follow
Fax Modem1 (4:33:36 PM): What do you mean?
x Roy The Boy x (4:35:17 PM): Well, abortion is the murder of a child in the womb
x Roy The Boy x (4:35:27 PM): whatever rights exist, it boils down to killing a baby in the womb
x Roy The Boy x (4:35:41 PM): if that abortion never would have taken place, my friend Maeghan's mother would have never been born
x Roy The Boy x (4:35:47 PM): And maeghan would have never been born
Fax Modem1 (4:35:50 PM): depends on what level you do it, otherwise its terminating a single celled organism
x Roy The Boy x (4:36:18 PM): Your right, Kyle, what was I thinking, because that single celled organism will never become anything different
x Roy The Boy x (4:36:20 PM): regardless
x Roy The Boy x (4:36:34 PM): Maeghan is a great person, who does a lot of really amazing things and has helped a lot of really amazing people
x Roy The Boy x (4:36:57 PM): Does the that make the death of that person okay?
Fax Modem1 (4:37:11 PM): Yes, but how does one pregnancy coincide with a seperate one?
x Roy The Boy x (4:37:13 PM): It's one of those unanswerable questions because it's impossible to really understand what cause is taking place
x Roy The Boy x (4:37:36 PM): Her grandmother would have died or been infertile or something, I don't know the specifics
Fax Modem1 (4:38:30 PM): then neither of us are qualified to use that scenario, since we don't know the specifics
x Roy The Boy x (4:40:24 PM): *sigh*
x Roy The Boy x (4:40:33 PM): The point is
x Roy The Boy x (4:40:36 PM): murder is either wrong or it isn't
x Roy The Boy x (4:40:46 PM): would I kill a man attempting to rape my wife? My mother? my sister?
x Roy The Boy x (4:40:51 PM): I probably would
x Roy The Boy x (4:40:58 PM): but would that make my decision right?
x Roy The Boy x (4:41:06 PM): Would that make murder okay?
x Roy The Boy x (4:41:08 PM): Probably not
Fax Modem1 (4:41:21 PM): Its wrong, course, the whole crucible of your argument is whether or not abortion counts as murder
x Roy The Boy x (4:41:38 PM): how can someone be anti-abortion and pro death penatlity? or pro abortion and anti death penalty?
x Roy The Boy x (4:41:43 PM): The problem isn't the specifics
Fax Modem1 (4:41:52 PM): Now, under those circumstances, that would be self defense, it would be justified
x Roy The Boy x (4:41:52 PM): the specifics are used to cloud the issues
x Roy The Boy x (4:42:01 PM): Justified in a court of law
Fax Modem1 (4:42:03 PM): or make the issue clearer
x Roy The Boy x (4:42:38 PM): No, the whole point of a lawyer is to try and find specific instances, because if you can approve something once for one reason you can get it approved a million times for a million different reasons
Fax Modem1 (4:43:05 PM): exactly, that's what we have, it keeps us from being barbarians and having mob rule.
x Roy The Boy x (4:43:28 PM): that made no sense
Fax Modem1 (4:43:33 PM): Now, of course, its not perfect, so lawyers will turn the system to get what they want, but its better than the alternative
Fax Modem1 (4:43:54 PM): I'm a couple sentences behind
x Roy The Boy x (4:44:17 PM): No, murder is wrong, whatever the circumstance
x Roy The Boy x (4:44:29 PM): just because it's justified, doesn't make it right
Fax Modem1 (4:44:36 PM): Never said it did
x Roy The Boy x (4:44:38 PM): Just because there aren't any consequences, doesn't make it right
x Roy The Boy x (4:44:41 PM): and that's my whole point
Fax Modem1 (4:45:04 PM): So, basically, your saying murder commited by God is wrong?
x Roy The Boy x (4:45:45 PM): I'd say no
x Roy The Boy x (4:46:02 PM): because every cause of "natural causes" is God
x Roy The Boy x (4:46:16 PM): How a person dies, doesn't change what God chooses
x Roy The Boy x (4:46:34 PM): Whether it be a hurricane, or a peaceful death in their sleep, what's the difference? Argueably it's all God
x Roy The Boy x (4:46:55 PM): And who are you to argue with the way God decides to kill? Is Cancer worse than dying in your sleep? From my perspective yes.
x Roy The Boy x (4:47:09 PM): But God has reasons for things, I've never looked back on a horrible time and not seen something good come from it
Fax Modem1 (4:47:30 PM): Why punish an entire race for the crimes of two people and a reptile by giving them death anyway?
x Roy The Boy x (4:47:58 PM): Why punish Jesus with your sins? It's all about choice
Fax Modem1 (4:49:42 PM): Heck, why go through the motion at all, why not just have a voice from the heavens, a burning bush, dancing raisins, whatever, to show his change in policy concerning sins, or did he just like being sadistic/masochistic with his son/self?
x Roy The Boy x (4:50:03 PM): Because the punishment for sin is death
x Roy The Boy x (4:50:11 PM): before Jesus, to atone for sins, you had to sacrifice
x Roy The Boy x (4:50:14 PM): animals usually
x Roy The Boy x (4:50:18 PM): and it wasn't a pretty thing at all
x Roy The Boy x (4:50:44 PM): The punishment for sin is Death, and to save the world from death, you need something sinless
Fax Modem1 (4:50:47 PM): Why? Why have that practice in the first place? What is with death for a death? What's the justified reason in that?
x Roy The Boy x (4:50:59 PM): Sin is the choice
x Roy The Boy x (4:51:06 PM): Free will is the reason
x Roy The Boy x (4:51:15 PM): You have the choice, live happily forever, enjoy your life, never die
x Roy The Boy x (4:51:23 PM): or take a bite from the fruit of that tree
Fax Modem1 (4:51:39 PM): bull, to covet is natural reaction, as fast as human thought, and that is a sin
x Roy The Boy x (4:51:41 PM): They chose the fruit, we choose it every day
x Roy The Boy x (4:51:57 PM): we live in a fallen world, we are born sinful, of course sin is natural
x Roy The Boy x (4:52:05 PM): we have this sin covering called Flesh
x Roy The Boy x (4:52:15 PM): We are deteriating as a society
Fax Modem1 (4:52:42 PM): So, he set the system like Jigsaw with his deathtraps, having to follow his traps or we die, all the while he comforts himself saying that we chose to die?
x Roy The Boy x (4:53:18 PM): You assume too much that God thinks like you do
Fax Modem1 (4:53:20 PM): society had always been degenerate, we just notice it more thanks to increase in awareness
x Roy The Boy x (4:53:31 PM): What if instead of setting you up to fail, he constantly sets you up to win
x Roy The Boy x (4:53:38 PM): What if he makes everything available for you to succeed
x Roy The Boy x (4:53:55 PM): and you continually choose failure, what if God isn't the one to blame for horrible things
x Roy The Boy x (4:54:05 PM): What if the choices of normal people like you and me are the reason for all this evil and hatred and stupidity and death
x Roy The Boy x (4:54:31 PM): What if God isn't just some puppet master who watches us with his lightning bolts ready to strike
Fax Modem1 (4:55:32 PM): But, according to the bible, God is the one watching on high, with his double standards of love me or die
Fax Modem1 (4:56:01 PM): Sorry, got distracted
x Roy The Boy x (4:56:04 PM): That's not the standards
x Roy The Boy x (4:56:20 PM): A person spends their entire life ignoring God
x Roy The Boy x (4:56:21 PM): spitting on him
x Roy The Boy x (4:56:28 PM): Rejecting him at every turn
x Roy The Boy x (4:56:51 PM): All the while, the God of the Universe, the Creator of all, the Alpha and Omega, constantly opens doors for you
x Roy The Boy x (4:57:03 PM): And this person, says, "no" to all of them
x Roy The Boy x (4:57:18 PM): They wake up every morning and deny he exists, deny he lives
x Roy The Boy x (4:57:22 PM): They deny that He even is
x Roy The Boy x (4:57:34 PM): And when they die, nothing changes
x Roy The Boy x (4:57:56 PM): So they loose God, after a lifetime of rejection, they get to go to a place where God is continually absent
Fax Modem1 (4:57:59 PM): Does he really give us a choice? Either follow me blindly and I will love you, or burn in all eternity for I will torture you until the end of time
x Roy The Boy x (4:58:13 PM): Hell isn't a place where God tortures
x Roy The Boy x (4:58:18 PM): Hell is a place without God
x Roy The Boy x (4:58:28 PM): And that's not the choice
Fax Modem1 (4:58:31 PM): So, its a refuge?
x Roy The Boy x (4:58:38 PM): Think of it this way
x Roy The Boy x (4:58:43 PM): Assuming that:
x Roy The Boy x (4:58:46 PM): A.) God is love
Fax Modem1 (4:58:47 PM): a safehouse from the dictator?
x Roy The Boy x (4:58:51 PM): B.) God greated everything
Fax Modem1 (4:58:57 PM): greated?
x Roy The Boy x (4:59:02 PM): Kyle
x Roy The Boy x (4:59:06 PM): stop interupting
x Roy The Boy x (4:59:15 PM): I don't even know why we're having this conversation
x Roy The Boy x (4:59:21 PM): You don't really care about what I have to say, you care about being right
x Roy The Boy x (4:59:29 PM): also this is too important of a conversation to have over the internet
x Roy The Boy x (4:59:37 PM): and I do believe you are starting to get worked up over it
Fax Modem1 (5:00:19 PM): not really, I have done this kind of debate over and over with several people, and its passing the time while I marinate the steak every once in a while
x Roy The Boy x (5:00:28 PM): Well then let me complete a thought
x Roy The Boy x (5:00:37 PM): Since you used the bible I shall also
x Roy The Boy x (5:00:45 PM): And here are the following assumption:
Fax Modem1 (5:00:48 PM): okay dokey
x Roy The Boy x (5:00:53 PM): 1.) God Created everything
x Roy The Boy x (5:01:03 PM): 2.) God is love
x Roy The Boy x (5:01:14 PM): 3.) Love is good
x Roy The Boy x (5:01:20 PM): 4.) God is all knowing
x Roy The Boy x (5:01:50 PM): Under these assumptions, you have to believe that God knows a bit more about this world than you do and he understands better hot to live successfully.
x Roy The Boy x (5:02:11 PM): also, since he created everything, and he created everything with a purpose, he understands how the pieces are suppose to fit together
x Roy The Boy x (5:02:37 PM): if you choose not to fit into that puzzle, he has created that option, but He is going to try and try and try to get to live the way you were created to live
x Roy The Boy x (5:02:52 PM): if you absolutely refuse to do this, he finally gives up and says, "Okay, you will get what you want"
x Roy The Boy x (5:03:00 PM): and you go to a place without God, Hell
x Roy The Boy x (5:03:07 PM): And a place without God is a place without love
x Roy The Boy x (5:03:19 PM): and without love there is no joy, happiness, patience, gratitude, forgiveness
x Roy The Boy x (5:03:39 PM): Do you get it yet?
Fax Modem1 (5:04:03 PM): Ok, so, let me get this straight, god is omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving?
x Roy The Boy x (5:04:42 PM): Yes
Fax Modem1 (5:06:56 PM): Ok, then therin lies the rub, if he is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving, why doesn't he make the world a better place or use some of that great divine intervention? Either he doesn't know, he can't do anything about it, or he doesn't care, which is it?
x Roy The Boy x (5:07:19 PM): I guess the best way to put it is, If I love you, and try over and over and over and over and over again to give you the best present you could ever get, and you refuse it every time, will you ever recieve it?
Fax Modem1 (5:08:19 PM): So, people are killed in tribal warfare, die of smallpox, experience horrible living conditions and die in pointless ways because they didn't open the box?
x Roy The Boy x (5:08:32 PM): Answer the question, Kyle
x Roy The Boy x (5:08:47 PM): You are very good at avoiding answers
Fax Modem1 (5:09:20 PM): Fine, in your logic puzzle you used to avoid mine, that would be impossible for me to ever receive
x Roy The Boy x (5:09:32 PM): Thank you for begrudingly answering
x Roy The Boy x (5:09:41 PM): The point is, at the end of the day you have a choice
x Roy The Boy x (5:09:43 PM): and not only you
x Roy The Boy x (5:09:45 PM): everyone does
Fax Modem1 (5:09:48 PM): and now for you to anwser mine
x Roy The Boy x (5:09:52 PM): and your choices not only effect you, but others around you
Fax Modem1 (5:09:59 PM): is God limited in knowledge, power, or love?
x Roy The Boy x (5:10:06 PM): None
x Roy The Boy x (5:10:22 PM): He knows everything, he has the power to do everything, and he loves us so much that he gives us the choice to accept him
x Roy The Boy x (5:10:46 PM): People don't die of smallpox because God doesn't love them, they die of small pox because the world is dying as a whole
Fax Modem1 (5:10:49 PM): Then why doesn't he turn AK-47s into jello, have manna rain from the skies, make dieseases turn into tickles?
x Roy The Boy x (5:10:50 PM): so yeah, there are diseases
x Roy The Boy x (5:10:57 PM): Because of choice
Fax Modem1 (5:10:59 PM): That doesn't interfere with free will
x Roy The Boy x (5:11:12 PM): Because that's not the way it works
x Roy The Boy x (5:11:24 PM): Do you realize that if people would get over themselves we could eliminate starvation
x Roy The Boy x (5:11:28 PM): we could eliminate Aids
x Roy The Boy x (5:11:33 PM): We could eliminate everything
x Roy The Boy x (5:11:38 PM): but there is this thing called Pride
x Roy The Boy x (5:11:45 PM): it gets in the way
x Roy The Boy x (5:11:51 PM): that's why Hitlers are around
x Roy The Boy x (5:12:06 PM): Hitler's choices effected Billions of people all over the world
Fax Modem1 (5:12:25 PM): back
x Roy The Boy x (5:12:31 PM): God created it, there are certain rules which he can bend and break if he wants, but why should he when you have the tools right there!
x Roy The Boy x (5:12:40 PM): You have the ability to change things! That is why you exist, Kyle!
Fax Modem1 (5:12:54 PM): so, he's not all loving, he just says he is and is just as prideful as Man?
x Roy The Boy x (5:12:57 PM): He did make miracles happen, he did make mana fall from the sky! He did destroy people's weapons!
x Roy The Boy x (5:13:02 PM): BUT IT DIDN'T WORK
x Roy The Boy x (5:13:05 PM): Read the old testement
Fax Modem1 (5:13:29 PM): I have, he also commited mass murder, and ordered his chosen to do the same
x Roy The Boy x (5:13:30 PM): God saves the Isrealites out of Egypt, Parts the Red sea after performing countless miracles and what do the ydo?
x Roy The Boy x (5:13:33 PM): They make a cow to worship
x Roy The Boy x (5:13:41 PM): Duh, random miracles don't work
Fax Modem1 (5:14:13 PM): So mass murder is ok because he's frustrated?
x Roy The Boy x (5:14:24 PM): You're right Kyle, God is a merciless child with a big magnifying glass ready to burn anyone that gets in his way
x Roy The Boy x (5:14:30 PM): congradulations, I'm an Aetheist
Fax Modem1 (5:14:35 PM): Scary, ain't it?
x Roy The Boy x (5:14:37 PM): I have to be gone 10 minutes ago, we'll talk later
x Roy The Boy x (5:15:01 PM): If you want to continue this conversation with me when you finally do get to come back home, tell me and we will
x Roy The Boy x went away at 5:15:18 PM.
Fax Modem1 (5:15:25 PM): cool beans, we can have soda and pizza, or tea and biscuits, or however you want to do it
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Auto Response from x Roy The Boy x (5:15:25 PM): I am away from my computer right now.
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x Roy The Boy x (5:16:10 PM): and I would like to throw out, that the things you don't like about your past and present aren't God's fault
x Roy The Boy x (5:16:15 PM): So stop blaming Him.
Fax Modem1 (5:16:40 PM): Its not his fault that he orders murder?
Fax Modem1 (5:17:08 PM): that he kills with plagues after he hardened the heart of a Pharoh who could no longer change his mind, even if he wanted to?
Fax Modem1 (5:17:40 PM): that his version of a loyalty test is to have his follower kill his son, only to go, just kidding, so its ok?
