Games where the heroes' power is unacknowledged

[Praxis]

Majora's Mask was meant to take place in an alternate dimension, which is why no one knows about the Hero.

I figured Majora's Mask takes place in the same world as OoT,

No. MM was clearly stated to have taken place in the world of Termina, not Hyrule.

My impression has always been this. After Link defeats Ganondorf 7 years in the future, he puts the Master Sword back, goes back to Hyrule in the past as a child, and gets out of the way to let events play out properly.

So Young Link leaves Hyrule and somehow ends up in Termina.

Meanwhile, back in Hyrule Ganondorf is busy running around killing everyone with the Triforce of Power, while Zelda goes into hiding as Shiek and Link knows that in seven years his future self will come back and kick Ganon's butt.

[Elaro]

Majora's Mask was meant to take place in an alternate dimension, which is why no one knows about the Hero.

I figured Majora's Mask takes place in the same world as OoT,

No. MM was clearly stated to have taken place in the world of Termina, not Hyrule.

My impression has always been this. After Link defeats Ganondorf 7 years in the future, he puts the Master Sword back, goes back to Hyrule in the past as a child, and gets out of the way to let events play out properly.

So Young Link leaves Hyrule and somehow ends up in Termina.

Meanwhile, back in Hyrule Ganondorf is busy running around killing everyone with the Triforce of Power, while Zelda goes into hiding as Shiek and Link knows that in seven years his future self will come back and kick Ganon's butt.

My friend, do you know of the website Zelda Legends? Because there's a very interesting set of articles about that...

But I digress. I remember someone talking about WW Link being treated like a child in PH. The way I had it figured, the stuff that happened atop ganon's tower wasn't really well known (I mean, there was one witness, and she travels with you!). So, I find it acceptable that the exploits of the Hero of Winds haven't spread far.

[Adrian Laguna]

You played the game, yes? 17 year old Link goes back in time at least twice during the course of the game, and both times he comes out the other end as a 10 year-old.

Ergo, it's not physical time travel. Unless you can explain why Link reverts to his ten-year-old form.

That is a hole, yes. But I like it better than the causality violating explanation where Ganondorf is sealed in the future and he no longer exists in the past.

I think that was just an excuse to recycle the character designs.

True, but SoD means there still needs to be an in-universe explanation.

An unlikely set of coincidences? Link doesn't recognize the majority of characters though, there's only a few that he confuses for someone he's seen before because they look similar. I think that in-universe most of the people we see as the same as people in Hyrule, aren't.

MM was clearly stated to have taken place in the world of Termina, not Hyrule.

Hyrule is a kingdom not a world. I figured Termina is the same. If a story takes place in France and the sequel in Poland it's still the same world.

My impression has always been this. After Link defeats Ganondorf 7 years in the future, he puts the Master Sword back, goes back to Hyrule in the past as a child, and gets out of the way to let events play out properly.

So Young Link leaves Hyrule and somehow ends up in Termina.

Meanwhile, back in Hyrule Ganondorf is busy running around killing everyone with the Triforce of Power, while Zelda goes into hiding as Shiek and Link knows that in seven years his future self will come back and kick Ganon's butt.

That's more or less what I've been saying. Link saved Hyrule, so he has faith that he'll do so again, and staying will change the course of events and might allow Ganondorf to win.

[Praxis]

Hyrule is a kingdom not a world. I figured Termina is the same. If a story takes place in France and the sequel in Poland it's still the same world.

Then why does Termina have all the same people, but living different lives? Did the developers just get lazy and reuse all the character models?

[Joviwan]

No, you couldn't in HotU. At least not storywise. The NPCs even comment on it, saying that the hero who saved Neverwinter (You in the stock game) simply disappeared. When you meet Aribeth, she does not remember you, nor do any other characters.

So why you may certainly import your character, storywise, you play a complete nobody with no previous ties to Neverwinter.

Which absolutely bugged me. I mean, why develop your character when he does not even matter anymore storywise.

I, personally, had no problem with this. I was rather tired of the character from NWN, having my history shoehorned and railroaded onto an epic quest to save the universe (I really did enjoy the campaign, just... you know, not a lot.) I admit, Hordes of the Underdark didn't have any LESS shoehorned railroading, but at least that shit had the decency to be incredibly well written, well scripted, well plotted, well placed, and well played. It was AWESOME to (SPOILERS) redeem aribeth and wander around with her as your buddy in the last parts of the game, and it really FELT epic level when you were in the epic level parts of the game. And common. An entire side quest to get your clothes back from a bunch of platform hopping mimics? Alright, so I just threw that in there because it was funny.

But yeah. I really enjoyed starting a new, fresh character for HotU.

[Uraniun235]

Regarding Zelda, is it possible that there isn't one single unified overarching continuity which ties together every single game? That, perhaps, there are games which may acknowledge or incorporate certain elements of previous games into their own backstory, but not necessarily represent a direct continuation of the previous game's story?

[Praxis]

Regarding Zelda, is it possible that there isn't one single unified overarching continuity which ties together every single game? That, perhaps, there are games which may acknowledge or incorporate certain elements of previous games into their own backstory, but not necessarily represent a direct continuation of the previous game's story?

Every game is set in the land of Hyrule excepting Majora's Mask (which is stated to be the same Link as OoT), and involves Ganon/Ganondorf. Further, both Twilight Princess and Wind Waker reference OoT many, many times, although they seem to contradict each other.

At the very least, the 3D Zeldas are all related. There's a clear OoT -> MM -> WW -> PH timeline. Also, Twilight Princess clearly takes place some time after OoT but it doesn't seem to make sense with Wind Waker (since Ganondorf dies in both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess).

[Thanas]

I, personally, had no problem with this. I was rather tired of the character from NWN, having my history shoehorned and railroaded onto an epic quest to save the universe (I really did enjoy the campaign, just... you know, not a lot.) I admit, Hordes of the Underdark didn't have any LESS shoehorned railroading, but at least that shit had the decency to be incredibly well written, well scripted, well plotted, well placed, and well played. It was AWESOME to (SPOILERS) redeem aribeth and wander around with her as your buddy in the last parts of the game, and it really FELT epic level when you were in the epic level parts of the game. And common. An entire side quest to get your clothes back from a bunch of platform hopping mimics? Alright, so I just threw that in there because it was funny.

But yeah. I really enjoyed starting a new, fresh character for HotU.

Shrug...To each his own, I guess. I think redeeming Aeribeth would have made more sense with the original NWN character.

But yeah, HotU was quite fun. Still not as epic as BG2, but fun nonetheless.

[Darth Yoshi]

That is a hole, yes. But I like it better than the causality violating explanation where Ganondorf is sealed in the future and he no longer exists in the past.

Not existing? Where'd you get that? Ganondorf is in the Dark World.

An unlikely set of coincidences? Link doesn't recognize the majority of characters though, there's only a few that he confuses for someone he's seen before because they look similar. I think that in-universe most of the people we see as the same as people in Hyrule, aren't.

Those people are also the people he's close to, and thus the people he wouldn't expect to find in another world. He wouldn't think anything of seeing Joe Blow in Termina because Joe Blow's face didn't stick in his memory.

Hyrule is a kingdom not a world. I figured Termina is the same. If a story takes place in France and the sequel in Poland it's still the same world.

Yeah, but Poles aren't doppelgangers of the French.

That's more or less what I've been saying. Link saved Hyrule, so he has faith that he'll do so again, and staying will change the course of events and might allow Ganondorf to win.

1. Why are there two 10-year-old Links floating around?
2. What happens to Courage? The OoT epilogue shows that post-Link has Courage. But sleeping Link is supposed to have Courage too. So are there two Courages, or will Courage jump from post-Link to sleeping Link?
3. If things are playing out as they did, why is Zelda back in the castle garden in the epilogue? She should be off hiding somewhere, not peeking at official business.
4. What about Epona? Link takes her with him to Termina. But that means that she won't be in Hyrule for Ingo to mistreat, which means that sleeping Link won't be able to win her from him. He's changed things already.
   The argument can be made, of course, that Epona is a minor detail that Link doesn't strictly need to succeed, but Epona is supposed to be the best mare in the ranch aside from her temperament. There's no guarantee that the other horses would be willing or able to jump Gerudo Gorge, in which case the quest comes to a screeching halt.

Every game is set in the land of Hyrule excepting Majora's Mask (which is stated to be the same Link as OoT), and involves Ganon/Ganondorf. Further, both Twilight Princess and Wind Waker reference OoT many, many times, although they seem to contradict each other.

To nitpick, LA and OoS/OoA don't take place in Hyrule either.

I wonder if we should start a new thread for this.

[Enigma]

The hero of CyClones is pretty much deactivated in the end. He save the world and gets rewarded by getting shut down. It pissed me off at the time.

[Qwerty 42]

I always figured Ganon's death was a hazy thing at best. In Twilight Princess, he has a gaping hole in his chest. This isn't a man who seems terribly troubled by mortal injuries.

There was also something rather odd going on with Wind Waker, so it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't die then: he turned to stone, which isn't a condition one normally associates with being stabbed in the head.

[Uraniun235]

Regarding Zelda, is it possible that there isn't one single unified overarching continuity which ties together every single game? That, perhaps, there are games which may acknowledge or incorporate certain elements of previous games into their own backstory, but not necessarily represent a direct continuation of the previous game's story?

Every game is set in the land of Hyrule excepting Majora's Mask (which is stated to be the same Link as OoT), and involves Ganon/Ganondorf. Further, both Twilight Princess and Wind Waker reference OoT many, many times, although they seem to contradict each other.

At the very least, the 3D Zeldas are all related. There's a clear OoT -> MM -> WW -> PH timeline. Also, Twilight Princess clearly takes place some time after OoT but it doesn't seem to make sense with Wind Waker (since Ganondorf dies in both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess).

I'm not sure whether or not I communicated myself clearly. They may all be related, sure, but are they necessarily intended to all be exactly within the same timeline as every other game?

An example of this sort of thing can be found in Arthur C. Clarke's 2061: Odyssey Three:

Just as 2010: Odyssey Two was not a direct sequel to 2001: A Space Odyssey, so this book is not a linear sequel to 2010. They must all be considered as variations on the same theme, involving many of the same characters and situations, but not necessarily happening in the same universe.

An even more extreme example can be found with Captain Harlock; anyone trying to establish a complete chronology is damned to failure.


All the Zelda games (save one) may be set in Hyrule, but is it always necessarily the same Hyrule with the same Link?

[Praxis]

All the Zelda games (save one) may be set in Hyrule, but is it always necessarily the same Hyrule with the same Link?

It's usually the same Hyrule, as evidenced by the fact that they have the same landmarks and basic geography (though clearly at different points in time, as cities rise and fall, Kakariko becomes a ghost town in Twilight Princess for example), but it's usually a different link because most of the Zelda games are hundreds of years apart.


Consider; Wind Waker specifically talks about a "Hero of Time" who travelled through time to save the land and locked away a great evil man in another realm. This exactly matches the events of Ocarina of Time; Link travelled into the future, kicked Ganon's butt, and sealed him away in the Sacred Realm.

There is a clear continuity between OoT and WW, and there is again a clear continuity between MM and OoT.

[Vendetta]

It helps to remember with Zelda that the events as told in the games are legendary accounts of "real" events handed down to an eventual audience, us. They're like Greek legends, they don't all line up because they've all been changed by their retellings.

[The Yosemite Bear]

how about Fallout, you just wander out into the desert....

[Darth Yoshi]

There really isn't anyway to argue single Link, seeing as Wind Waker establishes two (Hero of Time and Hero of Wind) by itself. The best you can argue is that all the Links are reincarnations of the Hero's spirit, but even that is weak, hinging on a single line of dialogue from LttP.

Regardless, Zelda is more like a series of vignettes about the conflict over the Triforce than a grand epic, I think.

[Civil War Man]

There's the KOTOR route of same universe, different people. Of course, they stretched SoD with the three members that got reset.

Didn't really stretch it for me, probably because the experience curve for KOTOR 2 is so much higher (I credit experience rewards for minesweeping and lockpicking) that, by the time I get HK-47 and Mandalore, they are arguably already more powerful than they were by the end of the original KOTOR. Of course, you can also credit blaster upgrades and the Precise Shot feat tree for that.

[CycloneRider052]

how about Fallout, you just wander out into the desert....

To found a village along with others from your vault and possibly surrounding areas who were drawn to you by what you accomplished in defeating the Master? Not to mention running into people in Fallout 2 who remembered the Vault Dweller ala Harold and Tandi? There's a lot more examples of the Vault Dweller being remembered in F2, but it's been a while since I've played either one so I can't really recall.

[The Yosemite Bear]

well lets see

Tandi-Life saved by the original VD, there's actually a statue of him near her office.

Harold: Father killed by the VD, doesn't hold it against him though.

[CycloneRider052]

well lets see

Tandi-Life saved by the original VD, there's actually a statue of him near her office.

Harold: Father killed by the VD, doesn't hold it against him though.

Who was Harold's father? Or are you thinking of the Raider boss whose father the Dweller killed?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Harold the ghoul was the son of Set, the Ghoul cultist who was a total bastard in Harold's own words, and was in league with the Master's goons.

[CycloneRider052]

Harold the ghoul was the son of Set, the Ghoul cultist who was a total bastard in Harold's own words, and was in league with the Master's goons.

He was? I somehow must have totally missed that little gem of dialogue in at least a dozen playthroughs of both games. Where do you find that out?

[The Yosemite Bear]

I felt like asking him about his family, or something.

[CycloneRider052]

I felt like asking him about his family, or something.

You mean you actually used the 'ask about' function and it...worked?

[The Yosemite Bear]

I can't remember, I was fucking around with the dialog tree trying to get as much information as possible.

I can't remember how I did it, since my copy of Fallout 2, is a bit non functional right now (scratched)