New Horus Heresy?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2007-10-16 04:25pm

Is there any power in the current Imperium, whether it be Space Marine, Imperial Governor, Inquisitor, etc that can unite the Imperium in a massive revolt against the GEoM? Is there a powerful enough person, personality, group, etc that can repeat what Horus did?

I know that the Space Marines have been broken down and scattered so no one Space Marine Legion can do what Horus did and threaten the Imperium but what about other factions? Have they also neutered themselves sufficiently so as not to be a threat? Has the Imperium decentralized authority enough to prevent the rise of another strongman or organization?

Can the threat come again from a thoroughly corrupted Inquisition? Can an Imperial Guard Lord Commander rally enough key systems to his side or launch a surprise attack on Holy Terra to knock out the Emperor quickly and decisively? How about a Palace Revolt on Holy Terra itself?

My personal favorite RAR is the Adeptus Mechanicum on Mars. Say they grow tired of the Emperor's influence from Holy Terra and launch a suprise attack with their Titan Legions and vast mechanical resources. Mars is a hop skip and jump to Holy Terra and the vast forces of the Imperium are sprawled outwards and may not be able to collapse back on Terra in time.

So what do you think? Can anyone repeat Horus' performance or was the Heresy truly a unique historical event in the Imperium? BTW this all assumes that the Emperor himself does not get involved in stopping these revolts.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-16 04:32pm

I think the Adeptus Mechanicus is the only body that can really do that any more. A fair few of them certainly worship the Void Dragon on Mars, so it's possible if he wakes up we'll see a nice big schism in the Adeptus Mechanicus, with possibly some Space Marine chapters siding with them (Iron Hands perhaps), or Techmarines aiding them etc. Some might side because they don't know what the rebel AdMech types are really up to as well...

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-10-16 04:37pm

The head of the Church tried to do Horus Heresy Mk.2, IIRC. They call it "The Age of Apostasy", the man behind it was unable to really rally the Imperium behind him. Most notably none or very few of the Space Marine Chapters sided with him, which left him in a very poor position. He might have had a chance to at least create a splinter Empire, but his main fleet was consumed in a Warp storm that everyone believes (probably correctly) is a manifestation of the GEoM's will. Said Warp storm still remains as a sort of reminder of the man's power, it's called "The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath".

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-16 04:44pm

That'd be High Lord Goge Vandire. Eventually defeated when the AdMech & Marines laid siege to the Imperial palace, and his bodyguard were convinced by the Emperor himself to turn on Vandire. However it was more like a period of appalling misrule than a 2nd Horus Heresy - there wasn't the Heresy's massive scale of warfare involved, it was mainly the bombing of worlds that wouldn't meet tithes etc.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-10-16 04:48pm

Interestingly enough, when Goge Vandire did become throughly corrupt, the then (presumably not current, though who knows) Fabricator General of Mars Gastaph Hedriatix, after attempting to indict Vandire for his crimes, and being answered with an effort to dissolve the Council of Terra, sent the Skitarii to Earth and was on it and layed siege to the Ministorum palace. That's an indicator of just how powerful they are on Mars...

Bedlam · Post by **Bedlam** » 2007-10-17 01:24pm

As originally stated I would think that the Admec is the only organisation organised and large enough to try to topple the emperor.

Possibly a group consisting of a number of the high lords might be able to gether enough of the imperial guard and other martial organisations under there banner to make a go of it but different armies and Cursades are so spread apart that the logistics and communication would be a neighmare.

From the Horus Heresy books it seems to me the organisation was only really possible as each legion seemed to keep the majority of its forces in single large fleets so it was reletively easy to pull all the tratiors together. Although it hasn't really be mentioned in the novels yet I also suspect that the chaos gods did a lot of behind the scenes organisation to ensure a lot of minor revoltes went off at the same time to provide Horus with Cover and tie up the mojority of the empires forces.

Another organisation that might try to pull off a revolution is the cult of the emperor itself (cant remember its name, the overall religion of the empire) only they effectively already run most of the empire anyway

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-17 01:41pm

The Ecclesiarchy? Possibly, but I think they'd have a hard(er) time after Vandire's reign.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2007-10-17 02:02pm

Before 4th edition (or was it perhaps 3rd?) there were rumours that GW were going to revamp the setting by sundering the Imperium; Something along the lines of Adeptus/Ecclesiarchy vs AdMech vs First Founding Marines. The rumours sounded stupid, and obviously, it never came to pass. Something like Ultramar would be the best place to start, I feel; the Ultramarines already have an industrial base, small as it is, and can expand slowly. They could possibly get some momentum going before the Adeptus Terra notices and does something about it. the Triplex Phall forgeworld is nearby, and the Kar Duniash naval segmentum headquarters is nearer Ultramar than Earth. If they could persuade the Navy to join them, they'd have a good bet. The Ultramarines may be able to persuade some of their successors to join them, as well as some of their fellow First Founding chapters. The key would probably be to sell it as a revolt against the bureaucracy, buit not the Emperor.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-17 02:06pm

Hmm, that's about the only rebellion I can see actually improving the Imperium in the long term. Just extremely unlikely to happen

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Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2007-10-17 02:26pm

Pfft, any revolt against the bureaucracy would just replace it with an equally ineffectual bureaucracy. One of the defining characteristics of the Imperium is that it is terminally hobbled by an unwieldy and self-conflicted bureaucracy that can't effectively organize the Imperium so as to actually get anything done. Games Workshop would never allow anything to change that.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-17 02:30pm

Oh GW wouldn't, but every description of Macragge makes not of the hard working, industrious people ("model human civilisation" at one point I think). A little Ultramar work ethic would go a long way on Terra I think...

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-10-17 03:30pm

NecronLord wrote:Interestingly enough, when Goge Vandire did become throughly corrupt, the then (presumably not current, though who knows) Fabricator General of Mars Gastaph Hedriatix, after attempting to indict Vandire for his crimes, and being answered with an effort to dissolve the Council of Terra, sent the Skitarii to Earth and was on it and layed siege to the Ministorum palace. That's an indicator of just how powerful they are on Mars...

It's a symbiotic relationship, though. While the Adeptus Mechanicus has a monopoly on high technology, and their armed forces are pretty dammed impressive, the rest of the Imperium has a monopoly on resources and their armed forces are humanity's primary shield and sword. Storm of Iron makes it plenty evident that when the two fail to co-operate, they're both screwed.

That's pretty much how Horus Heresy Mk.2 is avoided, there is not one organization anywhere in the Imperium capable of revolting without simultaneously committing suicide.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2007-10-17 08:01pm

How far does the RAR diverge?
Are we dealing with any single body, or do we take into account the probability of their betrayal?
I can imagine a rogue Inquisitorial faction or something, but the Ultramarines seem pretty unlikely.

The Emperor himself may not be completely defenseless, even in his comatose state.. and even disregarding things like the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, interstellar FTL travel would grind to a halt with the loss of the Emperor. I can't imagine anyone in the Imperium would want to put up with that.

Anyway, back on topic, who runs all the heavy defenses around the solar system? If it's the Adeptus Mechanicus, I think that clinches it.
If it isn't, can they stop the Adeptus Mechanicus? If so, I assume there's no one to stop them?

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2007-10-17 08:09pm

Sorry, didn't notice the OP states that the Emperor does not get involved in stopping the revolt.

From what I've read, ever since Horus, very few individuals have held the rank of Warmaster (or Lord Solar, which is apparently the same).
I assume that during any of the (few) times that there a Warmaster/Lord Solar named, that's a potentially successful revolt right there.
This time, the Space Marines would not be on their side, however.

According to wikipedia, there are immense planetary defense lasers located on the moon. That sounds like a possible threat right there.

As for the internal palace revolt stated in the OP, if the Adeptus Custodes are as wankish as they're made out to be, I think that rules it out.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2007-10-17 08:17pm

Cykeisme wrote:Anyway, back on topic, who runs all the heavy defenses around the solar system? If it's the Adeptus Mechanicus, I think that clinches it.

I'm fairly sure that the considerable defense of modern Terra and Sol at large are manned and run by elements of Battlefleet Solar; which is to say that the Adepts of Mars are involved, as they are involved with all technical aspects of the Navy.

If it isn't, can they stop the Adeptus Mechanicus? If so, I assume there's no one to stop them?

Almost certainly - the defensive emplacements throughout Sol are ... impressive. The Adeptus Mechanicus does have its own fleets of ships, and I suppose if they withdrew their support they could eventually starve out the battle fortresses, though the chances are that Mars would be dead inside of a day.

Certainly, it's not like martians broke through the defenses around Terra in order to lay siege to Vandire - by that point, everybody was getting in on the 'lay siege to Goge Vandire' action.

Man, Goge Vandire ... at the end it really sounded like it was basically him and his personal bodyguard against the Imperium and he was still trying to keep the place running at the same time. His famous last words after the captain of his guard sentenced him to death (and promptly cut his head off) were something to the effect of 'Take a number, I have a galaxy to run'.