Anakin says NO!

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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Palpatine's crimes are truly enormous, I think Publius summarized them.
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Post by NecronLord »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Palpatine's crimes are truly enormous, I think Publius summarized them.
Oh yes. It's rather that it might well seem to say, the courts, the senate, and the general public, even discounting his corruption, that the Jedi are taking over. Which of course, provided the clones didn't turn on them at that point, which they may well do, they would, albeit for noble reasons.
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Post by Isolder74 »

NecronLord wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Palpatine's crimes are truly enormous, I think Publius summarized them.
Oh yes. It's rather that it might well seem to say, the courts, the senate, and the general public, even discounting his corruption, that the Jedi are taking over. Which of course, provided the clones didn't turn on them at that point, which they may well do, they would, albeit for noble reasons.
I'm not sure why. Palpatine is clearly guilty of high treason against the Republic as he is Darth Sidious the leader of the Separatists, the man who ordered the attack on Naboo and various other grievous crimes against the galaxy at whole. Remember it was only a doctored version of the events in Palpatine's office that convinced the Senate to vote Palpatine Emperor in the first place. The Jedi were not taking over as much as they were arresting a known criminal. The movie does not make clear what the Line of succession would be in the case of the Chancellor being unfit to rule.
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Post by NecronLord »

Isolder74 wrote:I'm not sure why. Palpatine is clearly guilty of high treason against the Republic as he is Darth Sidious the leader of the Separatists, the man who ordered the attack on Naboo and various other grievous crimes against the galaxy at whole.
And how convincing is that evidence? As far as we know, Palpatine was exceptional at covering his tracks. For that matter, how widespread is knowledge of the Sith credentials of Count Dooku, and the others? Was it even public knowledge that the Sith had returned? To the common citizen, it would appear that the much-loved and heroic chancellor had been suddenly implicated as a super villain. How would you feel if you were in World War Two and someone tried to claim FDR actually was Hitler?
The Jedi were not taking over as much as they were arresting a known criminal. The movie does not make clear what the Line of succession would be in the case of the Chancellor being unfit to rule.
Did you go to the toilet or something when the Council are discussing the removal of Palpatine?
MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from
office.
MACE WiNDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition...
YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm... great care we must take.
If anything, finding out that Palpatine was the Sith Lord makes it even more likely they'd take over. We know that Mas Amedda (given Amedda's utter lack of surprise at Palpatine shooting lightning out of his hands, and bragging about the power of the dark side in front of him...) at least, and presumably similar members of the Chancellor's Retinue were part of his conspiracy, given this, it seems highly likely that the Jedi would need to completely sweep the upper echelons of the Republican government for Palpatine's partners in crime.
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Post by Isolder74 »

NecronLord wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:I'm not sure why. Palpatine is clearly guilty of high treason against the Republic as he is Darth Sidious the leader of the Separatists, the man who ordered the attack on Naboo and various other grievous crimes against the galaxy at whole.
And how convincing is that evidence? As far as we know, Palpatine was exceptional at covering his tracks. For that matter, how widespread is knowledge of the Sith credentials of Count Dooku, and the others? Was it even public knowledge that the Sith had returned? To the common citizen, it would appear that the much-loved and heroic chancellor had been suddenly implicated as a super villain. How would you feel if you were in World War Two and someone tried to claim FDR actually was Hitler?
The Jedi were not taking over as much as they were arresting a known criminal. The movie does not make clear what the Line of succession would be in the case of the Chancellor being unfit to rule.
Did you go to the toilet or something when the Council are discussing the removal of Palpatine?
MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from
office.
MACE WiNDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition...
YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm... great care we must take.
If anything, finding out that Palpatine was the Sith Lord makes it even more likely they'd take over. We know that Mas Amedda (given Amedda's utter lack of surprise at Palpatine shooting lightning out of his hands, and bragging about the power of the dark side in front of him...) at least, and presumably similar members of the Chancellor's Retinue were part of his conspiracy, given this, it seems highly likely that the Jedi would need to completely sweep the upper echelons of the Republican government for Palpatine's partners in crime.
How well would the Senate have taken this exchange if it was not cut out of the tape of the fight??
Revenge of the Sith wrote:Mace: The Senate will decide your fate.

Sidious: I AM THE SENATE!

Mace: Not yet!
Edit: Fixed format errors
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Post by NecronLord »

If Anakin just put his blade through Palpatine's throat, that would never have happened...

Never mind that the voice there sounds entirely different from his usual Palpatine voice, and could probably not be authenticated.
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Post by lord Martiya »

Isolder74 wrote:I'm not sure why. Palpatine is clearly guilty of high treason against the Republic as he is Darth Sidious the leader of the Separatists, the man who ordered the attack on Naboo and various other grievous crimes against the galaxy at whole. Remember it was only a doctored version of the events in Palpatine's office that convinced the Senate to vote Palpatine Emperor in the first place.
Correct, but to arrest Palpatine Windu needed evidences, and the word of a Jedi that someone is a Sith seemed to be inadequate to arrest someone. According the novelization, BEING A SITH IS NOT A CRIME, or at least Palpatine said that. For the Jedi, the best path would be do nothing: he NEVER acted openly illegally, so, finished the Separatist Crisis, Palpatine would resign his power and retire on his own. Or commit a public high treason, and Anakin himself will arrest him. But Windu did the foolest thing...
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lord Martiya wrote:Correct, but to arrest Palpatine Windu needed evidences, and the word of a Jedi that someone is a Sith seemed to be inadequate to arrest someone.
Actually, I doubt it. You can arrest someone, at least in reality, without necesserily having all the evidence to prosecute someone. "I'm arresting you on suspision of Murder" doesn't mean the police have everything, just reasonable grounds. There were reasonable grounds to conclude that Sidious was Palpatine - he had actually confessed to an agent of the law! An unhindered investigation and the cooperation of the legal system and senate would doubtless uncover more.
According the novelization, BEING A SITH IS NOT A CRIME, or at least Palpatine said that.
Being the Sith Lord who was directly responsible for inciting Civil War, and genocide (at least on the part of General Grievous) against his own citizens is most certainly High Treason.
For the Jedi, the best path would be do nothing: he NEVER acted openly illegally, so, finished the Separatist Crisis, Palpatine would resign his power and retire on his own. Or commit a public high treason,
Err. No. Lying ("I will lay down when this crisis has abated") might normally be grounds for impeachment, but you can bet he'd got himself an exemption from that. He got them to crown him Emperor. You really think they're going to impeach him for anything save eating babies on the Senate Podium?
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lord Martiya wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:I'm not sure why. Palpatine is clearly guilty of high treason against the Republic as he is Darth Sidious the leader of the Separatists, the man who ordered the attack on Naboo and various other grievous crimes against the galaxy at whole. Remember it was only a doctored version of the events in Palpatine's office that convinced the Senate to vote Palpatine Emperor in the first place.
Correct, but to arrest Palpatine Windu needed evidences, and the word of a Jedi that someone is a Sith seemed to be inadequate to arrest someone. According the novelization, BEING A SITH IS NOT A CRIME, or at least Palpatine said that. For the Jedi, the best path would be do nothing: he NEVER acted openly illegally, so, finished the Separatist Crisis, Palpatine would resign his power and retire on his own. Or commit a public high treason, and Anakin himself will arrest him. But Windu did the foolest thing...
Ordering attacks on the Republic through his puppets Dooku and Grievous Do indeed qualify for arrest. As does the attacks on Naboo the order to kill Amidala while she is a member of the Senate, shall I go on? In Shatter point the link a Darth Sidious to the activities of the Separatists is made.
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Post by Havok »

NecronLord wrote:The Jedi would likely find tons of evidence if given time to hunt through Palpatine's things. Whether anyone would believe that evidence is another matter...
With the whole of the Jedi Order intact? They would be believed. Bail and Padme would certainly take their word as would Mon Mothma and the rest of the 200 that already opposed Palpatine. Those in the Senate, in Palpatine's fold and influence would also have an instant get out of jail free card for anything they had done... "The Sith Lord was controlling me!!".

As for the OP...

The thing with Palpatine and Anakin was that up until ROTJ, Palpatine seemed to plot out his schemes and prepare very carefully where Anakin was concerned. Around ROTJ, and probably before, he just seemed to get very careless. It was probably just arrogance. Anakin was under his complete control and that was that. No other precautions were necessary.

The other thing was Padme vs Luke. In ROTS when Anakin has his lightsaber at Palpatine's throat, he is coinvinced that he needs him alive to save his love, Padme. So he can't just kill him. However in ROTJ, the last part of Padme is being threatened by Palpatine's power and Vader finally realizes what he had done in his past and how Palpatine manipulated him, if he hadn't already.

So while Anakin had the opportunity to whack Palpatine in the hallway in ROTS, he just didn't have the right mindset to do it yet. Could he physically beat him? I'd say it is a toss up. Palpatine's power could certainly stop Anakin, but for how long is the question, especially as Anakin tapped into his anger, or even worse for Palpatine, if Anakin in that moment realized that Palpatine had been manipulating him the whole time and that the ways of the Jedi were right and he embraced them fully and truly became the "Chosen One".
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havokeff wrote:So while Anakin had the opportunity to whack Palpatine in the hallway in ROTS, he just didn't have the right mindset to do it yet.
Quite so (sucker...) but it's an artifact of OP. :wink:
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Post by lord Martiya »

NecronLord wrote:
lord Martiya wrote:Correct, but to arrest Palpatine Windu needed evidences, and the word of a Jedi that someone is a Sith seemed to be inadequate to arrest someone.
Actually, I doubt it. You can arrest someone, at least in reality, without necesserily having all the evidence to prosecute someone. "I'm arresting you on suspision of Murder" doesn't mean the police have everything, just reasonable grounds. There were reasonable grounds to conclude that Sidious was Palpatine - he had actually confessed to an agent of the law! An unhindered investigation and the cooperation of the legal system and senate would doubtless uncover more.
According the novelization, BEING A SITH IS NOT A CRIME, or at least Palpatine said that.
Being the Sith Lord who was directly responsible for inciting Civil War, and genocide (at least on the part of General Grievous) against his own citizens is most certainly High Treason.
For the Jedi, the best path would be do nothing: he NEVER acted openly illegally, so, finished the Separatist Crisis, Palpatine would resign his power and retire on his own. Or commit a public high treason,
Err. No. Lying ("I will lay down when this crisis has abated") might normally be grounds for impeachment, but you can bet he'd got himself an exemption from that. He got them to crown him Emperor. You really think they're going to impeach him for anything save eating babies on the Senate Podium?
If I remember right, you need a little evidence to make an arrest (inadequate to condemn, but are evidences), and Palpie never confessed to be THAT Sith Lord (not on screen, but Anakin probably deduced it by his knowledge of the position of Gunray and associates. And if he didn't, he's a moron). And I don't think that they impeached him for something less of that, I think that in that case the Jedi had all the evidence necessary to arrest and condemn him. The mission would probably gived to Anakin and Obi-Wan, war heroes populars at least as Palpatine (and who some days before SAVED him), so the public opinion would be at least in doubt if not clearly favorable to the Jedi, and the Clonetroopers would probably refuse the Order 66 and execute automatically a similar order directed against the Chanchellor (if that order actually exists).
But we are on the field of the suppositions, we aren't able to say what's right and what isn't right.
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Post by NecronLord »

lord Martiya wrote:If I remember right, you need a little evidence to make an arrest (inadequate to condemn, but are evidences), and Palpie never confessed to be THAT Sith Lord (not on screen, but Anakin probably deduced it by his knowledge of the position of Gunray and associates. And if he didn't, he's a moron).
Yes, he did. "You're the Sith Lord!" "...listen to me, don't continue to be a pawn of the Jedi council..." as opposed to, "Nope. That's Darth Sidious. I'm Darth Visible..."

A direct confession of a man already closely linked to suspects in an investigation on the grave matter of High Treason to an officer of the law.
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Post by Havok »

NecronLord wrote:
havokeff wrote:So while Anakin had the opportunity to whack Palpatine in the hallway in ROTS, he just didn't have the right mindset to do it yet.
Quite so (sucker...) but it's an artifact of OP. :wink:
Ah yes, so it is. The sucker is me. :D
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Post by Ted C »

I think that if Anakin made the choice to kill Palpatine then and there, Palpatine would have been dead. Anakin was no slouch with the telekinetics, so attacks of that sort probably wouldn't have been very successful. Thanks to some experience with Dooku, he also knows that he can block lightning with a lightsabre.

Basically, I think Palpatine bet the farm that he had Anakin wrapped around his finger when he made that little confession. If he'd been wrong about Anakin's loyalties and motivations, he would have been toast.
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