Tanks vs. Mechs: 1941 Force Sub Part 3

[Darth Wong]

A molga doesn't stride it's got wheels IIRC.

Fine, look at the "Velociraptor" unit then. We're still talking about 8-10 strides per second to make >200 km/h. Got some time-indexed screencaps to show that it can do that?

2) Armour is not sloped. If you want to help a weapon penetrate, vertical armour is a great idea.

It's not like Zoids is the only series that has this problem, blame it on the fact that not everyone's a military buff or engineer.

Doesn't chane the fact that it's a serious weakness. When you fight at short range (as they invariably do), you'd better have strong armour or you're fucked.

3) Weapons paradoxical; if they are kinetic and can knock over another Zoid from sheer momentum, then the recoil should know over the launching zoid. They must be rockets. If they're rockets, anti-tank guns on a much smaller platform should get the job done.

Rockets and missiles are seperate weapons systems though.

How does that address the point?

4) Utility of claws and talons: if you can breach a Zoid's armour with hardened talons and claws, modern anti-tank weapons should get the job done easily. Deal with it.

All the truly effective claw weapons are powered and enhanced.

Enhanced ... how? It's still a piece of cold metal, isn't it?

[Darth Wong]

Argh. Post bug.

[Sea Skimmer]

And? It's not like they're the only mecha to have bad armor sloping (a certain imperial walker comes to mind) yet for some reason we don't seem to automatically assume an AT-AT will be taken out by a modern tank shell.

Don't suppose anyone knows what kind of KE you'd need for a shell to fly for 60 miles?

Beyond that I'll have to check the eps I have to get anything more definite.

Know the shell form factor? I really doubt you do, so your not going to be able to make any meaningful calcuations.

[SAMAS]

A molga doesn't stride it's got wheels IIRC.

Fine, look at the "Velociraptor" unit then. We're still talking about 8-10 strides per second to make >200 km/h. Got some time-indexed screencaps to show that it can do that?

Nope, because we've never seen the Rev Rapter move at maximum speed.

FYI, the ones that have been shown are:

Flyers(Redlers, Storm Sworders, etc...)

Geno Saurer(Used hover engines)

Lightning Saix(Which is shown taking several strides a second)

Ultrasaurus(Whis is a big, slow mutha...)

Liger Zero Jaeger(Using a more leaping stride, assisted by large thrusters)

2) Armour is not sloped. If you want to help a weapon penetrate, vertical armour is a great idea.

It's not like Zoids is the only series that has this problem, blame it on the fact that not everyone's a military buff or engineer.

Doesn't chane the fact that it's a serious weakness. When you fight at short range (as they invariably do), you'd better have strong armour or you're fucked.

And they do.

3) Weapons paradoxical; if they are kinetic and can knock over another Zoid from sheer momentum, then the recoil should know over the launching zoid. They must be rockets. If they're rockets, anti-tank guns on a much smaller platform should get the job done.

Rockets and missiles are seperate weapons systems though.

How does that address the point?

Allow me to elaborate. The times a Zoid has been shown being knocked around by enemy fire, It's usually a Light Zoid(Rev Rapter) being shot by a heavier Zoid(Blade Liger, Dibison, etc...), or from a heavy weapon that the firing Zoid has to literally brace itself to fire(Gunsniper, Geno Saurer). Just about every other time, the Zoid was hit by something very large and heavy, such as another Zoid.

4) Utility of claws and talons: if you can breach a Zoid's armour with hardened talons and claws, modern anti-tank weapons should get the job done easily. Deal with it.

All the truly effective claw weapons are powered and enhanced.

Enhanced ... how? It's still a piece of cold metal, isn't it?

The majority of times claws and teeth have been shown doing actual physical damage to the Zoid or it's armor are the blades of the Blade Liger or Storm Sworder, the "Strike Laser Claw" system of the Liger Zero and Shadow Fox, or a similar system.

In each case, the blades/claws are energized with a particle field, kind of like wrapping a Lightsaber's blade around that of a real sword. Or in short, a Warhammer 40,000 Power Weapon.

The other times has been...

A: A blade wielded against a Heavy Zoid against a lighter one(Death Stinger cutting apart Shield Ligers)

B: An attack backed up by the full weight of the Zoid(Liger Zero Schieder's Buster Slash)

Or a combination of the three.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The Claw weapons are surrouned by a heat field or a vibro-field is what they mean by enhanced. Otherwise any of them would simply shatter based on the stresses placed on their conccectors. Also it seems they are only capable of maintaining this energy field for short periods of time, as most HTH weapons retract, until they are about to be used....

Needless to say were looking at vaery basic physics rape in their projectile weapons, & movement stats. And their HTH systems have large scale inharient vulnerabilityies. Especially since the HTH specialists seem to exist by avoiding hun fire, out running missiles, and everything that's not an HTH unit stops like a deer in headlights when ever an HTH unit preps for charge....

[Admiral Valdemar]

If the heavy rifles are what they say, then they must be recoilless ones in order to keep the angular moment from recoil down, there's no way those things could fire from such a platform even if braced and stationary, letalone moving at speed.

The claws and talons may be explained as stated by hydrosonics or thermal effects, but the armour is still compromised. Even if it is adamantium or durasteel, it is still a design that limits the properties of the material from the way it is used on the mech. Large, thick and diagonal plates are the best bet, but they only work on tanks unless the mech looks like a tank but with legs.

I can suspend my disbelief, but only so far, and really this is a case of taking into account the physics of both worlds (unfortunately for you, the other world is reality in this case) and while not everyone is a scientist or military type, these things really do contradict commonsense and should be taken into account for a victory analysis.

[SylasGaunt]

I can suspend my disbelief, but only so far, and really this is a case of taking into account the physics of both worlds (unfortunately for you, the other world is reality in this case) and while not everyone is a scientist or military type, these things really do contradict commonsense and should be taken into account for a victory analysis.

So what? If we're going by that logic I could put modern tanks against AT-ATs and claim victory.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I can suspend my disbelief, but only so far, and really this is a case of taking into account the physics of both worlds (unfortunately for you, the other world is reality in this case) and while not everyone is a scientist or military type, these things really do contradict commonsense and should be taken into account for a victory analysis.

So what? If we're going by that logic I could put modern tanks against AT-ATs and claim victory.

They could too provided tactics were used e.g. stay away from the slow as hell head and hit the sides and knock it over.

I have no respect for mechs in any universe when we talk reality, they look nice and intimidating, but they don't cut it in the real world.

[Darth Wong]

All of these moronic comparisons of regular mechs to AT-AT's are a waste of time. There are some key differences:

1) AT-AT's shoot at you from many km away. They do not fight at close range, and they would be shitty at close range. The effectiveness of an AT-AT at long range hardly validates mechs, which typically fight at very close range.

2) AT-AT's are slow, precisely as one would expect for a Mech.

3) AT-AT's can only be deployed in certain environments. Their footfalls are so heavy that they cause groundquakes for many miles in all directions.

4) AT-AT armour is very dense (see ground-quakes mentioned above). This cannot be compared to the silly ultra-light but super-strong armour used by anime Mechs.

5) AT-AT's use combined-arms tactics in conjunction with other units; they do not rely on a moronic "one size fits all" tactical scheme.

Saying that a typical Anime Mech is comparable to an AT-AT is moronic; AT-AT's have many serious tactical limitations, which is why they are special-purpose vehicles. You cannot say the same for Mechs, which can supposedly perform pretty much any and all combat roles by themselves.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Besides, AT-AT regiments have AT-STs mop up any resistance that the larger troop carriers missed, the chicken walkers are more akin to mechs and even then they at least show they are unstable and easily destroyed unlike a Gundam.

[Stormbringer]

I can suspend my disbelief, but only so far, and really this is a case of taking into account the physics of both worlds (unfortunately for you, the other world is reality in this case) and while not everyone is a scientist or military type, these things really do contradict commonsense and should be taken into account for a victory analysis.

So what? If we're going by that logic I could put modern tanks against AT-ATs and claim victory.

By your logic we have to bend physics over and anally rape it six ways from Sunday to make a foolish fan-boy wank credible.

[SylasGaunt]

Beyond that I'll have to check the eps I have to get anything more definite.

Know the shell form factor? I really doubt you do, so your not going to be able to make any meaningful calcuations.[/quote]

I'll have to check my DVD when I get home, I think I can get a flight time at the very least.

[SylasGaunt]

1) AT-AT's shoot at you from many km away. They do not fight at close range, and they would be shitty at close range. The effectiveness of an AT-AT at long range hardly validates mechs, which typically fight at very close range.

Depends on the Mecha in question. We've got dialogue putting some zoid weapon ranges as high as 60 miles, as well as seeing engagements at 30 kilomters.

2) AT-AT's are slow, precisely as one would expect for a Mech.

Yet pound for pound they would appear to be faster than some of the zoids listed. According to the number you give on the Ground combat page an AT-AT's top speed is 60 km/h. The largest zoid present in the debate is the Death Saurer with a top speed of 90 km/h and masses at less than 1/5th the 2500 tons you used in your ground pressure example.

3) AT-AT's can only be deployed in certain environments. Their footfalls are so heavy that they cause groundquakes for many miles in all directions.

True.. of course that makes you wonder why they call it an All-Terrain transport.

4) AT-AT armour is very dense (see ground-quakes mentioned above). This cannot be compared to the silly ultra-light but super-strong armour used by anime Mechs.

Like the ultra-light but super-strong armor that lets something as small as a Jedi starfighter survive hull hits from kiloton range energy weapons?

5) AT-AT's use combined-arms tactics in conjunction with other units; they do not rely on a moronic "one size fits all" tactical scheme.

Zoids do have combined arms with images from the model books showing infantry backup for ground zoids.

[Darth Wong]

Depends on the Mecha in question. We've got dialogue putting some zoid weapon ranges as high as 60 miles, as well as seeing engagements at 30 kilomters.

Beyond line-of-sight?

2) AT-AT's are slow, precisely as one would expect for a Mech.

Yet pound for pound they would appear to be faster than some of the zoids listed. According to the number you give on the Ground combat page an AT-AT's top speed is 60 km/h. The largest zoid present in the debate is the Death Saurer with a top speed of 90 km/h and masses at less than 1/5th the 2500 tons you used in your ground pressure example.

Pound for pound? What the fuck kind of metric is that? An AT-AT is a hundred fucking feet tall! At a 15m stride, it would only have to take one step per second to make 54 km/h, and even that is probably unsafe, hence the lower speeds drivers use.

3) AT-AT's can only be deployed in certain environments. Their footfalls are so heavy that they cause groundquakes for many miles in all directions.

True.. of course that makes you wonder why they call it an All-Terrain transport.

Irrelevant. The point remains that their weight is appropriate, while that of Mecha is not.

4) AT-AT armour is very dense (see ground-quakes mentioned above). This cannot be compared to the silly ultra-light but super-strong armour used by anime Mechs.

Like the ultra-light but super-strong armor that lets something as small as a Jedi starfighter survive hull hits from kiloton range energy weapons?

That's shields, dumb-fuck.

5) AT-AT's use combined-arms tactics in conjunction with other units; they do not rely on a moronic "one size fits all" tactical scheme.

Zoids do have combined arms with images from the model books showing infantry backup for ground zoids.

I haven't seen as much anime as some of the fan-whores around here but I've never seen Mecha combat where anything but Mecha-on-Mecha combat mattered. If combined-arms were done realistically, tanks and infantry and artillery would overwhelm the Mechs.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Don't forget SW spacecraft use superphysics to make exotic materials we couldn't possibly understand today for armor. Mecha are almost always just a few decades to a few centuries ahead of us. And fucking retarded either way.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Don't forget SW spacecraft use superphysics to make exotic materials we couldn't possibly understand today for armor. Mecha are almost always just a few decades to a few centuries ahead of us. And fucking retarded either way.

Well aside from the neutronium armour, yeah.

[Stormbringer]

Don't forget SW spacecraft use superphysics to make exotic materials we couldn't possibly understand today for armor. Mecha are almost always just a few decades to a few centuries ahead of us. And fucking retarded either way.

Except those Mecha are always going to be a worse choice when compared to tanks no matter what material you use. Those same miracle materials would be applied to tanks as well.

[SylasGaunt]

Except those Mecha are always going to be a worse choice when compared to tanks no matter what material you use. Those same miracle materials would be applied to tanks as well.

Of course, a tank built with the same technology as a mech will always be superior, that's a given.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Depends on the Mecha in question. We've got dialogue putting some zoid weapon ranges as high as 60 miles, as well as seeing engagements at 30 kilomters.

BVR weapons? Then why is the gun still the primary armament? And why are almost all engagements LoS?

Yet pound for pound they would appear to be faster than some of the zoids listed. According to the number you give on the Ground combat page an AT-AT's top speed is 60 km/h. The largest zoid present in the debate is the Death Saurer with a top speed of 90 km/h and masses at less than 1/5th the 2500 tons you used in your ground pressure example.

Because the AT-AT is HUGE! A Zoid must make a lot of strides . An AT-AT has to make a few steps.

True.. of course that makes you wonder why they call it an All-Terrain transport.

Whatever.

Like the ultra-light but super-strong armor that lets something as small as a Jedi starfighter survive hull hits from kiloton range energy weapons?

Did we watch the same movie? I saw in a few hits the Jedi Starfighter without shields and the armour burnt right through.

Zoids do have combined arms with images from the model books showing infantry backup for ground zoids.

Combined arms isn't infantry BACKUP.

[SylasGaunt]

Beyond line-of-sight?

Yes, in this instance two Cannon Tortises were providing artillery support for a Lightning Saix.

Pound for pound? What the fuck kind of metric is that? An AT-AT is a hundred fucking feet tall! At a 15m stride, it would only have to take one step per second to make 54 km/h, and even that is probably unsafe, hence the lower speeds drivers use.

Wasn't the best wording, but the zoid in this scenario closest to it in size is only 50% faster than the AT-AT's top speed and is some 68 feet tall.

Irrelevant. The point remains that their weight is appropriate, while that of Mecha is not.

We don't have an official weight to my knowledge, just an estimate and the fact it's designated as an all-terrain transport with the only other deployment we've seen in the films being the one outside the endor base.

That's shields, dumb-fuck.

Oh yes that explains the rather obvious holes that got put in it.

I haven't seen as much anime as some of the fan-whores around here but I've never seen Mecha combat where anything but Mecha-on-Mecha combat mattered. If combined-arms were done realistically, tanks and infantry and artillery would overwhelm the Mechs.

Except zoids does use artillery, air support, infantry and armor along with naval units when applicable.

[SylasGaunt]

BVR weapons? Then why is the gun still the primary armament? And why are almost all engagements LoS?

Why do we still have LoS engagements?

Because the AT-AT is HUGE! A Zoid must make a lot of strides . An AT-AT has to make a few steps.

The Zoid in question is only 9 meters shorter.

Whatever.

Cute how everyone seems to want to ignore it's designation.

Did we watch the same movie? I saw in a few hits the Jedi Starfighter without shields and the armour burnt right through.

A rather small hole, and it's been a while since I checked the scene but i don't recall seeing an exit hole, yet this ship took a hit capable of vaporizing more than 630 tons of silicon.

Combined arms isn't infantry BACKUP.

Support then if you prefer it worded that way.

[Darth Wong]

Beyond line-of-sight?

Yes, in this instance two Cannon Tortises were providing artillery support for a Lightning Saix.

Must have been rocket artillery.

Pound for pound? What the fuck kind of metric is that? An AT-AT is a hundred fucking feet tall! At a 15m stride, it would only have to take one step per second to make 54 km/h, and even that is probably unsafe, hence the lower speeds drivers use.

Wasn't the best wording, but the zoid in this scenario closest to it in size is only 50% faster than the AT-AT's top speed and is some 68 feet tall.

According to the specs, the 21m high "Iron Kong" does 170 km/h. In what world of idiot mathematics is 170 km/h just 50% higher than 60 km/h? Face it; your Zoid speed figures are pure bullshit. Until I see some kind of video capture showing many strides per second, they're obviously wrong.

Irrelevant. The point remains that their weight is appropriate, while that of Mecha is not.

We don't have an official weight to my knowledge, just an estimate and the fact it's designated as an all-terrain transport with the only other deployment we've seen in the films being the one outside the endor base.

We don't need a fucking official weight, you idiot! Each footstep could be heard from MILES AWAY! What part of this don't you understand?

In contrast, your "Iron Kong" has a mass of just over 200 tons; feather-light for its extreme size. It has tinfoil for armour.

That's shields, dumb-fuck.

Oh yes that explains the rather obvious holes that got put in it.

Yes, the shields deflect some of it, thus saving the ship. Or perhaps you didn't notice how easily Fett was pulverizing asteroids many times larger than the ship. Simple matter of ratios: either the fighter is made of material so strong that you can pulverize asteroids bigger than the whole ship with blasts that take only a fist-sized piece out of the hull, or it's got shields. And since it officially has shields, your refusal to admit their existence is just more stalling and bullshitting on your part.

I haven't seen as much anime as some of the fan-whores around here but I've never seen Mecha combat where anything but Mecha-on-Mecha combat mattered. If combined-arms were done realistically, tanks and infantry and artillery would overwhelm the Mechs.

Except zoids does use artillery, air support, infantry and armor along with naval units when applicable.

Really? We see infantry taking down the mechs? Or are they just portrayed as feeble support for the big guns?

[SylasGaunt]

Must have been rocket artillery.

Mortar actually.

According to the specs, the 21m high "Iron Kong" does 170 km/h. In what world of idiot mathematics is 170 km/h just 50% higher than 60 km/h? Face it; your Zoid speed figures are pure bullshit. Until I see some kind of video capture showing many strides per second, they're obviously wrong.

I was referring to the Death Saurer.

We don't need a fucking official weight, you idiot! Each footstep could be heard from MILES AWAY! What part of this don't you understand?

Apperantly why the Empire would give an all-terrain designation to something that could only be deployed in few terrain types.

In contrast, your "Iron Kong" has a mass of just over 200 tons; feather-light for its extreme size. It has tinfoil for armour.

So you claim but provide no evidince to back considering you don't know the armor's composition and the entire series takes place on another planet.

Yes, the shields deflect some of it, thus saving the ship. Or perhaps you didn't notice how easily Fett was pulverizing asteroids many times larger than the ship. Simple matter of ratios: either the fighter is made of material so strong that you can pulverize asteroids bigger than the whole ship with blasts that take only a fist-sized piece out of the hull, or it's got shields. And since it officially has shields, your refusal to admit their existence is just more stalling and bullshitting on your part.

Except that those two holes were only made after repeated hits, if every hit Fett made made a hole that size Obi-Wan's fighter would have been swiss cheese, ergo the shields had been knocked down.

Really? We see infantry taking down the mechs? Or are they just portrayed as feeble support for the big guns?

I haven't seen the entirety of Chaotic Century so I can't comment on the whole but we've seen one example of an infantry carried anti-zoid weapon taking out one of the lighter zoids.

One of the images from a Zoids book has an infantryman preparing to fire some kind of shoulder mounted weapon, though whether he's about to fire an at the Pteramander strafing his unit's position or at the pair of ground zoids on a mountain some ways off I can't tell.

Another has a group of infantry that looks like they're moving in to capture the pilot of a downed Saber Tiger while an Ultrasaurus takes out another in the background.

Next one's only got three humans in the shot but it looks more like they're trying to get the hell out of the way than fight (understandable since there's an Ultrasaurus making landing on their position).

Another has what appears to be mechanized infantry deploying along with two zoids in an amphibious landing.

Another has infantry engaging several lighter zoids during a battle around a cave.

Next image with infantry appears to be a missile team that's crept up to a Cannon Tortise (artillery zoid) and is about to put a missile into it .

Next one's got infantry but their part of the image isn't clear, it LOOKS like they're engaging other infantry around the feet of an iron kong.

Next is an Iron Kong being blasted from behind by a Gojulas and an infantryman who's about to fire a tripod mounted weapon

Next is infantry and light flying zoids springing an ambush

Infantry and a Stealth Viper defending a bridge under aerial assault.

Infantry supporting a Godos, I can pick out one with a missile launcher, one with a mortar, and can't tell what the other two armed ones are carrying. There's also what looks like a medic present.

18 images total, of which 11 show infantry and zoids fighting toghether.

The 7 remaining are:

1.) Zoid wreckage in the desert at sunset
2.) A pair of sinker rays leaving dock
3.) Sinker Rays being shelled from shore
4.) Battle Aftermath. Some infantry here along with search and rescue crews but no fighting
5.) Flying Zoid passing over another Zoid formation. The zoids on the ground are small and blurry so if there's any infantry there I probably couldn't see them anyway.
6.) A Red Horn being jumped by a pack of lighter zoids
7.) 2 Barigators coming under fire as they try to cross a river at night.

So a total of four show only zoid vs. zoid combat.

[SAMAS]

Beyond line-of-sight?

Yes, in this instance two Cannon Tortises were providing artillery support for a Lightning Saix.

Must have been rocket artillery.

Mortars, actually.

Pound for pound? What the fuck kind of metric is that? An AT-AT is a hundred fucking feet tall! At a 15m stride, it would only have to take one step per second to make 54 km/h, and even that is probably unsafe, hence the lower speeds drivers use.

Wasn't the best wording, but the zoid in this scenario closest to it in size is only 50% faster than the AT-AT's top speed and is some 68 feet tall.

According to the specs, the 21m high "Iron Kong" does 170 km/h. In what world of idiot mathematics is 170 km/h just 50% higher than 60 km/h? Face it; your Zoid speed figures are pure bullshit. Until I see some kind of video capture showing many strides per second, they're obviously wrong.

I really have no idea what's going on here, but the numbers given are the official ones from TOmy, the company that made them. While not all the Zoids have been shown moving at top speeds, the ones that have in the animes, which I've already listed above, do back up their states stats.

I haven't seen as much anime as some of the fan-whores around here but I've never seen Mecha combat where anything but Mecha-on-Mecha combat mattered. If combined-arms were done realistically, tanks and infantry and artillery would overwhelm the Mechs.

Except zoids does use artillery, air support, infantry and armor along with naval units when applicable.

Really? We see infantry taking down the mechs? Or are they just portrayed as feeble support for the big guns?

They have shown people using heavy weapons against Zoids on two occasions. Twice, they were used on light Zoids(Sinkers and Guysacks), and they worked both times. Against Heavier Zoids, they normally knew better.

[SylasGaunt]

Well that answers the question of whether or not we saw infantry take out a zoid in Chaotic Century (my example being from Zero/New Century)