Are ysalamiri wanked?

[FTeik]

Not to forget, that the Vronskers had god knows how much time to adapt to the abilities of the Ysalamiri. In other words the slugs developed their ability to block out a certain spectrum of the Force (the one used by the Jedi, compare to the Yuuzhan Vong) to protect themself against their hunters and do it constantly now although it has become useless over time (at least against Vronskers).

As for the blocking of Force-lightning: Can't it be, that the Force is still needed to direct the energy against its target and that the energy disipates with lightspeed in every direction, once the controlling influence is lost?

[Dooey Jo]

This is still akin to saying they evolved to block light, given they have no OTHER defenses. They are extraordinarily weak, slow and have only one defense. It sounded from the start as a plot device and stayed that way.

Do they really need a better defence? It may not be perfect, and some of them may be eaten, but as long as it's good enough, that doesn't matter very much.

As much as I enjoy Zahn, he had no grasp of evolution when creating this beast except as a sound byte.

I don't know about that, but it's still leagues better than the Pokémon metamorphosis-type of evolution seen in almost all other sci-fi out there.

[Baal]

So, if it's an evolutionary defence that doesn't work and these predators can sense through it anyway... why does it do retarded things like STOP FORCE LIGHTNING MID-FLIGHT?

Gee, you sure arent smart (yes I am kidding). Any trekkie would know this answer instantly. They must REVERSE THE POLARITY!!!! which of course is the ultimate fix.

The problem here is that Zahn wrote the ability for a reason that doesnt even exist now. Back then various sources suggested that the Clone Wars were fought against unstable clones who went insane and started some massive galactic war. The idea was that no one had figured out why and so all clones that were grown ended up insane.

This of course turned into more Thrawn wank as he and he alone figured out that the resonating through the force between the origional person and the gorwing clone is what made the clone insane. So the Yslarmi were created as the solution to the problem.

Now none of this applies at all once the AOTC came out and we see millions of clones being quite stable.

[FTeik]

Just that a Kamino-clone took ten years to grow.

And how do we know it was Thrawn who figured out the connection between clone-madness and the Force. For all we know he could have learned it at the small-talk after dinner at Palpatine's.

[Baal]

Just that a Kamino-clone took ten years to grow.

And how do we know it was Thrawn who figured out the connection between clone-madness and the Force. For all we know he could have learned it at the small-talk after dinner at Palpatine's.

If that was the case then you would expect at least some passing comment from Obi-Wan about the dangers of clone insanity.

[FTeik]

Just that a Kamino-clone took ten years to grow.

And how do we know it was Thrawn who figured out the connection between clone-madness and the Force. For all we know he could have learned it at the small-talk after dinner at Palpatine's.

If that was the case then you would expect at least some passing comment from Obi-Wan about the dangers of clone insanity.

Why, where and when?

[Havok]

The Spaarti cylinders grew their clones at an accelerated rate and they were "born" as adults. The Force didn't mesh right with them ONLY if they were grown faster than the year that it normally took to grow them. Thrawn didn't solve any great mystery of cloning, he just solved a problem he created himself by growing the clones faster than the year it was supposed to take. 20 days or something.

[Terralthra]

So, if it's an evolutionary defence that doesn't work and these predators can sense through it anyway... why does it do retarded things like STOP FORCE LIGHTNING MID-FLIGHT? And how can the null area extend into fucking orbit when the area is so small in other situations? Is the first introduction of the slugs really this inconsistent with their later use as magic no-force 10 feet radius?

Frankly, the idea that some lameo predator can sense through the effect and super-powerful intelligent trained Jedi can't boggles my fucking mind. Either it blocks the force or it doesn't (it obviously doesn't, or there's a gradient of some kind however inconsistent this is later).

I hear it makes sense for some ridiculous animal to evolve a magical defence that doesn't work and gives writers a 'cancel jedi' card, even though their main predator can still detect them and thus the described 'null force' effect is apparently wrong? GO EVOLUTION!

So, first it was terrible writing because the predators couldn't hunt ysalamiri despite their defence mechanism, and then, when I asked you to provide evidence for that view, it's bad writing because they can?

It was better when you just didn't like ysalamiri. There is at least one parallel evolutionary track I can think of that would have a point along them which would look like Myrkr's ecology currently does, and I'm not even an expert.

1) vornskrs develop moderate ability to sense life through the force cf. tLC (we've seen from multiple sources that sensing other life is a very basic application of force sensitivity)
2) ysalamiri over time evolve the ability to hide their life signature from the vornskrs by neutralizing active force powers and senses within close proximity (1-10m for an individual ysalamir, according to Karrde, HttE)
3) vornskrs adapt by learned behavior, hunting and seeking out the 1m radius "blank spots" and then just looking for the sessile reptiles in the middle
4) ysalamiri evolve further, so that if their fields of neutralization overlap, they grow exponentially rather than arithmetically by combining, rendering it much more difficult to find an individual ysalamir by looking for the center of the field (again, confirmed by Karrde in dialogue and by effect, HttE, tLC)

I can't find the reference to that effect extending into orbit. Any idea where that is?

[Teleros]

I believe it's when Luke finally leaves the planet, as he's flying away from the forest, he suddenly feels the Force returning to him or somesuch. I'm not sure if the effect reaches into orbit or "just" a few kilometres into the atmosphere though. Don't have the books on me though, so can't provide you with a page reference.

[Terralthra]

Aha, just found it.

"And abruptly, right in the middle of Han's last word, Luke felt a surge of awareness and strength fill him. As if he were waking up from a deep sleep, or stepping from a dark room into the light, or suddenly understanding the universe again.
The Force was again with him.
He took a deep breath, eyes flicking across the control board for the altimeter. Just over twelve kilometers. Karrde had been right—those ysalamiri did, indeed, reinforce one another."

Heir to the Empire

[Stark]

So, first it was terrible writing because the predators couldn't hunt ysalamiri despite their defence mechanism, and then, when I asked you to provide evidence for that view, it's bad writing because they can?

There is only one kind of bad writing! Either way, it's stupid, because either it's magic no-force 10 feet or it doesn't stop the predators at all, but has huge effects on Jedi. Are you seriously saying one is great writing? Are you seriously saying I shouldn't change my attitude based on new information? I thought (from later portrayls) that the slugs canceled all force abilities within a small radius. Posts in this thread suggest they kinda mess up force abilities in a large radius (as the predators can apparently still 'sort of' sense them through the jamming). This makes it stupid writing in a WHOLE DIFFERENT WAY, and indeed moves the onus of stupid shit off Zahn (since apparently originally it wasn't too objectionable) and onto the later writers who grabbed the idea and ran with it.

Oh no, I accepted correction and changed my view! I'm a fucking asshole troll!

It was better when you just didn't like ysalamiri. There is at least one parallel evolutionary track I can think of that would have a point along them which would look like Myrkr's ecology currently does, and I'm not even an expert.

1) vornskrs develop moderate ability to sense life through the force cf. tLC (we've seen from multiple sources that sensing other life is a very basic application of force sensitivity)
2) ysalamiri over time evolve the ability to hide their life signature from the vornskrs by neutralizing active force powers and senses within close proximity (1-10m for an individual ysalamir, according to Karrde, HttE)
3) vornskrs adapt by learned behavior, hunting and seeking out the 1m radius "blank spots" and then just looking for the sessile reptiles in the middle
4) ysalamiri evolve further, so that if their fields of neutralization overlap, they grow exponentially rather than arithmetically by combining, rendering it much more difficult to find an individual ysalamir by looking for the center of the field (again, confirmed by Karrde in dialogue and by effect, HttE, tLC)

That's great. It's still a rationalisation for a silly idea. I'm not debating it's canonicity. I think it's weak and the 'evolution' thing is a throwaway Hollywood style piece of nonsense (although if the original portrayl is as described here, it didn't start that way).

I think it's hilarious you describe overlapping fields as an additional evolution. Why wouldn't this happen anyway? If there's a gradient, this would be the only way to create a large area of effect anyway. Learned behaviour isn't evolution, and you don't just 'evolve' a full attribute. The slugs would have started with rudimentary force jammer abilities, just like the predator would have started with poor life-sensing abilities. If there's no way of knowing how recently they developed a field effective enough to block real force users (as opposed to some ridiculous lizard animal), we can't know if the slugs began banding together or simply bred stronger and stronger effects.

I can't find the reference to that effect extending into orbit. Any idea where that is?

Holy shit, I didn't even fucking say it did. Are you paying attention? I responded so someone's information. I'm not going to read fucking horrible SW novels.

EDIT - I see, the extend-to-orbit is some crazy synergistic effect.

[Ghost Rider]

This is still akin to saying they evolved to block light, given they have no OTHER defenses. They are extraordinarily weak, slow and have only one defense. It sounded from the start as a plot device and stayed that way.

Do they really need a better defence? It may not be perfect, and some of them may be eaten, but as long as it's good enough, that doesn't matter very much.

Which then brings up the very point that Zahn created a planet that had no literal interaction with anything except very clean Imperials/Smugglers.

Literally he's created a critter that couldn't defend itself against a particularly angry squirrel on a galactic setting. Then to relegate the predators to another one note device(They can track the Force...fucking forbid another of that species developed better smelling...)

So yes, it should've been written with a better defense then it's one note wonder.

As much as I enjoy Zahn, he had no grasp of evolution when creating this beast except as a sound byte.

I don't know about that, but it's still leagues better than the Pokémon metamorphosis-type of evolution seen in almost all other sci-fi out there.

It's bad enough that it demonstrates for this critter he wanted plot device and used evolution as nothing more then a sound byte. As I said in this post, it has demonstrated extraordinary weakness when it can be easily circumvented with things we see in basic natural settings.

Literally both it and the predators are extraordinarily pigeonholed and made for one purpose. To be Anti Jedi because they are, with the added benefit of helping another plot device he created with Spaarti cloning.

[Stark]

Someone suggested earlier that the predators can still detect the slugs with their force-sense, regardless of the force-repulsion. I'm not clear if this is simple hunting by omission, but it was suggested they can still see the slugs anyway.

[Terralthra]

Not sure there's a self-consistent explanation for that.

The vornskrs are not extinct, so they must have a way of finding and eating the ysalamiri still, whether it's by hunting the null-spots, or just using their eyes.

They may still have a sense for force disturbances that allows them to track force-users, but how the vornskrs would be able to track Luke in the Myrkr forest when the Force is being suppressed by all the ysalamiri is, well, difficult to justify.

[Havok]

Someone suggested earlier that the predators can still detect the slugs with their force-sense, regardless of the force-repulsion. I'm not clear if this is simple hunting by omission, but it was suggested they can still see the slugs anyway.

The way I remember it the slugs don't show up as a "hole" in the Force, they simply don't show up, just like they aren't there. Let me amend that by saying they don't show up as a "hole" to the vornskr, but to Luke after some practice he could sense their lack of presence.

[Stark]

Not sure there's a self-consistent explanation for that.

The vornskrs are not extinct, so they must have a way of finding and eating the ysalamiri still, whether it's by hunting the null-spots, or just using their eyes.

They may still have a sense for force disturbances that allows them to track force-users, but how the vornskrs would be able to track Luke in the Myrkr forest when the Force is being suppressed by all the ysalamiri is, well, difficult to justify.

Oh, I thought the planet was some kind of environment where conventional senses wouldn't work (ie, low pressure, dark, that sort of thing) which is why the predators used the force instead (something never before seen on over a hundred surveyed planets ).

Perhaps the predators are so used to working in the no-force area they can sense the presence of the regular force-positive people in it? This doesn't tally well with later events (or even the 'Luke feels no connection to the force' in the same book) but maybe they show up like a very bright light in a smokescreen?

[Terralthra]

That's a working theory, which would also explain (maybe) why they can still hunt Ysalamiri...they're not sensing the ysalamiri themselves, they're sensing the very tiny disturbance in the Force of the ysalamir's neutralization field?

As I recall, the forests had some sort of effect which made sensors less effective, but Luke and Mara don't seem to have any problems seeing, hearing, and etc. while moving through the forest.

[Starglider]

Oh, I thought the planet was some kind of environment where conventional senses wouldn't work (ie, low pressure, dark, that sort of thing) which is why the predators used the force instead

No, it's just a dense forest/jungle planet. The force-sensing thing was probably just a freak multiple-point mutation, not repeated anywhere else because of the lack of an easy incremental path to it (for evolution to follow). That said if a small fraction of most humanoid species have force abilities, it would not surprise me of a small fraction of higher animals in general have these abilities. It's just that no one is going to notice or care about a force-sensitive bear or tauntaun or whatever. The Myrkr may just be unusual in that they all have it rather than just the odd force-touched one.

(something never before seen on over a hundred surveyed planets ).

Don't you mean 'over a million surveyed planets'? Don't make me summarily execute you for unforgivable EU minimalism.

The vornskrs are not extinct, so they must have a way of finding and eating the ysalamiri still, whether it's by hunting the null-spots, or just using their eyes.

They wouldn't be extinct anyway, there are plenty of other species for them to hunt. The reason the ysalamiri needed the force-nulling thing is that they're so pathetically slow and vulnerable otherwise, if they couldn't hide the Myrkr would pick them off preferentially over more mobile and well-defended prey.

[dworkin]

Why the constant assumption that ysalamiri are the products of evolution in a galaxy crawling with force using civilisations for the last 50K years?

It's like saying wheat could not of evolved naturally just because the overdeveloped features useful to people make no sense to of evolved naturally. The answer is it didn't, rather it was the result of concious modification and development.

The ysalamiri are most likely some forgotten project running wild. Mabye they were discarded because after all their work all they got were anti-force slugs and not something with, well, teeth

[Battlehymn Republic]

Yeah, I'd personally just handwave it by saying that some intelligent designer was behind the creation of the ysalamiri. And said creators are lost to aeons, never to be brought up again. Ever.

[Havok]

Yeah, I'd personally just handwave it by saying that some intelligent designer was behind the creation of the ysalamiri. And said creators are lost to aeons, never to be brought up again. Ever.

That's the best way to go, but the official entry in the SW databank says the feat is developed, not engineered. There is no official entry on the vornskr.
Guess we have to wait for the retcon.

[Battlehymn Republic]

But the whole faulty concept of evolution aside, my question still stands- are the ysalamiri wanky? That is, as a plot element that nullifies the abilities of Force users in a limited radius, is that wanky?

I'd still like to think no. I do agree that it should be more than just an instant Force-cancelling field (there should be degrees of difficulty, different effects on different Force users, the state of the animal itself, etc.), but I'd like to think that in a hypothetical situation, even the great Palpatine would have been vulnerable to it. The counter of that, of course, is the ability to detect a Force-null artifact coming towards you, and the ability to forsee such danger.

[Zac Naloen]

But the whole faulty concept of evolution aside, my question still stands- are the ysalamiri wanky? That is, as a plot element that nullifies the abilities of Force users in a limited radius, is that wanky?

I'd still like to think no. I do agree that it should be more than just an instant Force-cancelling field (there should be degrees of difficulty, different effects on different Force users, the state of the animal itself, etc.), but I'd like to think that in a hypothetical situation, even the great Palpatine would have been vulnerable to it. The counter of that, of course, is the ability to detect a Force-null artifact coming towards you, and the ability to forsee such danger.

If it is an evolved trait why the assumption that a life form that has likely not encountered Ysalamiri ever before would be able to overcome it just because they are strong in the force? Why would it be a degree of strength, it could well be something more subtle.



The mechanism is never explained and things are probably best left that way. Yes it's "wanky" and possibly overpowered but that doesn't mean it's inherently bad. It served a purpose in the story it was in that got made meaningless by future developments by the owner of the franchise, how is that the writers fault?

[Stark]

But the whole faulty concept of evolution aside, my question still stands- are the ysalamiri wanky? That is, as a plot element that nullifies the abilities of Force users in a limited radius, is that wanky?

I'd still like to think no. I do agree that it should be more than just an instant Force-cancelling field (there should be degrees of difficulty, different effects on different Force users, the state of the animal itself, etc.), but I'd like to think that in a hypothetical situation, even the great Palpatine would have been vulnerable to it. The counter of that, of course, is the ability to detect a Force-null artifact coming towards you, and the ability to forsee such danger.

What adds to it's wank (indeed, to the bad scifi writing standard) is that it's a stupid fucking animal someone just found. You'd think in 50K years of force use, someone would have studied it's fundamental properties (ie, someone not the Jedi ), or post-slug someone would have established how it works, and made a machine that does it better, more controllably, etc. It is literally 'magic' in a way that even the force isn't, and thus it's a) ludicriously powerful and b) makes very little sense.

[Zac Naloen]

But the whole faulty concept of evolution aside, my question still stands- are the ysalamiri wanky? That is, as a plot element that nullifies the abilities of Force users in a limited radius, is that wanky?

I'd still like to think no. I do agree that it should be more than just an instant Force-cancelling field (there should be degrees of difficulty, different effects on different Force users, the state of the animal itself, etc.), but I'd like to think that in a hypothetical situation, even the great Palpatine would have been vulnerable to it. The counter of that, of course, is the ability to detect a Force-null artifact coming towards you, and the ability to forsee such danger.

What adds to it's wank (indeed, to the bad scifi writing standard) is that it's a stupid fucking animal someone just found. You'd think in 50K years of force use, someone would have studied it's fundamental properties (ie, someone not the Jedi ), or post-slug someone would have established how it works, and made a machine that does it better, more controllably, etc. It is literally 'magic' in a way that even the force isn't, and thus it's a) ludicriously powerful and b) makes very little sense.

I dunno, the Aing Ti monks are pretty fucking powerful. They can Teleport, and you don't even need to be force sensitive in the traditional sense to be able to to do it.

Seems Zahn was trying to inject something new into the force, in both his trilogies in an attempt to make it more interesting and more magical. I don't really mind the Ysalimiri or the monks, they are an extra mystery in a massive galaxy that hasn't been fully explained. Does it need to be explained? No one liked when the force was broken down into something more than a mystical manifestation of... something...