How much did the Empire expand from the Republic?

[ArcturusMengsk]

As per this thread, we know that the Empire claimed at least one planet which had not previously been a part of the Galactic Republic. This indicates at least some level of expansion on the part of the Empire. Now I'm curious: is there anything in the EU indicative of just how much larger the Empire was than the Old Republic?

[Havok]

I think in theory, the Empire claimed the entire galaxy. Yeah they might not have had a presence on every single system, but how long would it take for a fleet of Star Destroyers to show up and enforce Palpatine's will.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Perhaps the Empire expanded holdings to the satellite galaxies and globular clusters? From Thrawn's "mapping expedition" and the Imperial-Chissian "Empire of the Hand" that the forgotten worlds of the halo in general were being reclaimed.

[Tiriol]

As per this thread, we know that the Empire claimed at least one planet which had not previously been a part of the Galactic Republic. This indicates at least some level of expansion on the part of the Empire. Now I'm curious: is there anything in the EU indicative of just how much larger the Empire was than the Old Republic?

Wizards of the Coast's Revised Star Wars Roleplaying Game mentions that the Hutt Space was greatly diminished in size during Palpatine's reign, indicating that the Hutts were forced to give away much of their political power or be subjected to Imperial might. WotC's Hero's Guide also mentions that several systems in the Corporate Sector (possibly even sectors, since the said regime had expanded from its one sector -origin) also aligned themselves with the Separatists, so forcing them under Imperial/CSA rule would also expand the Imperial sphere of influence when compared to the Old Republic's waning days. Grand Admiral Thrawn led a campaign of exploration and colonization in the Emperor's name, expanding the Imperial borders in name at least. So the Galactic Empire at its height was greater than the Galactic Republic at its height; however, not by a large margin.

[Havok]

There is a big difference between "We do what we want and you can do nothing about it.", which was how those Sectors, Federations and criminal organizations existed under the Republic and "Thank you for not vaporizing us and allowing us a small space to call our own, sir.", which is how Palpatine LET them exist in his New Order. That is control, and it applied to the whole galaxy.

[VT-16]

In the upcoming Force Unleashed multimedia, one of the first TIE fighter factories was built in orbit of Nar Shaddaa. That says something about the Empire's reach, even in its early days.

And when it comes to expansion, remember the CIS had claimed many systems and regions during the CW, so the Empire basically had to subjugate what was once Republic territory as well.

[lord Martiya]

There is a big difference between "We do what we want and you can do nothing about it.", which was how those Sectors, Federations and criminal organizations existed under the Republic and "Thank you for not vaporizing us and allowing us a small space to call our own, sir.", which is how Palpatine LET them exist in his New Order. That is control, and it applied to the whole galaxy.

Not the whole galaxy: the Ssi-Ruuk and the Chiss were still indipendent, so at least their areas of the Unknown Regions weren't under Imperial control. I'm not sure that the Ssi-Ruuk lived in the Unknown Regions or in one of the satellite galaxies, but the Chiss were known to the Empire and lived in the Unknown Regions, but they were indipendent.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I doubt the Unknown Regions are within the galaxy what with "if it does not appear in our archives, it does not exist."

Ssi-ruuvi were in a star cluster (probably a globular star cluster) outside the galactic disk. And the Chiss I think were depicted openly as belonging to a globular star cluster in Survivor's Quest. But it does not make sense with logic and absolute canon that the Unknown Regions exist within the galactic disk. Especially not because of the bullshit "hyperspace barrier" and covering some half or a third of the galactic disk, either. That's retarded.

[Bakustra]

I doubt the Unknown Regions are within the galaxy what with "if it does not appear in our archives, it does not exist."

Ssi-ruuvi were in a star cluster (probably a globular star cluster) outside the galactic disk. And the Chiss I think were depicted openly as belonging to a globular star cluster in Survivor's Quest. But it does not make sense with logic and absolute canon that the Unknown Regions exist within the galactic disk. Especially not because of the bullshit "hyperspace barrier" and covering some half or a third of the galactic disk, either. That's retarded.

The Ssi-ruuvi appear to live entirely within an open cluster on the fringes of the galaxy proper. Given that they are insular, technologically backward pirates, it's unsurprising they were ignored by the Empire. The Chiss appear to not live within the globular cluster proper and instead use it as a military center.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The cartoon maps, however inaccurate, depict the Ssi-ruuvi star cluster as beyond the edge of the disk, and that's our only datum WRT them. WRT the Chiss, it still stands as a datum validating an interpretation that they exist in the galactic halo. The stellar density of their territory also argues in favor of a halo interpretation.

[PainRack]

Wizards of the Coast's Revised Star Wars Roleplaying Game mentions that the Hutt Space was greatly diminished in size during Palpatine's reign, indicating that the Hutts were forced to give away much of their political power or be subjected to Imperial might. WotC's Hero's Guide also mentions that several systems in the Corporate Sector (possibly even sectors, since the said regime had expanded from its one sector -origin) also aligned themselves with the Separatists, so forcing them under Imperial/CSA rule would also expand the Imperial sphere of influence when compared to the Old Republic's waning days. Grand Admiral Thrawn led a campaign of exploration and colonization in the Emperor's name, expanding the Imperial borders in name at least. So the Galactic Empire at its height was greater than the Galactic Republic at its height; however, not by a large margin.

Diminished in size? The Hutts were utterly suborned into the Galactic Empire, with a Moff in charge of Nar Shadaa and their territory placed under Imperial taxation and customs.
They probably have a few planets which had no Imperial presence whatsoever, but the Hutts collectively were no longer independent, under the miminal supervision of the Empire. Otherwise, there would had been no reason for an Imperial taxation office on Nar Shadaa or the need to bribe both the customs officer as well as the Moff in Hutts Gambit.

I doubt the Unknown Regions are within the galaxy what with "if it does not appear in our archives, it does not exist."

The Jedi archives contain information that's classified and restricted to outsiders. Furthermore, the Empire further classified navigational data, making the possibility of unknown space, where mining and trade settlements could be built and abandoned in the space of years possible.

[Bakustra]

The cartoon maps, however inaccurate, depict the Ssi-ruuvi star cluster as beyond the edge of the disk, and that's our only datum WRT them. WRT the Chiss, it still stands as a datum validating an interpretation that they exist in the galactic halo. The stellar density of their territory also argues in favor of a halo interpretation.

Oh, I'm not disputing that they are located in the galactic halo, just that the Chiss do not live in the globular cluster itself.

[Havok]

Palpatine seemed pretty up on who or what was either in the galaxy or was going to be coming in. He was aware of the impending Vong invasion, and I believe he was aware of the Chiss to some degree. All the early "enemies" that the New Republic faced, like the Ssi-ruuvi, would have all collectively had their asses handed to them by the Palpatine controlled Empire. He allowed these places to exist outside his control probably just because he hadn't gotten to them yet or at the very least would provide a buffer and a type of early warning against the Vong or other extra-galactic threats.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Jedi archives contain information that's classified and restricted to outsiders. Furthermore, the Empire further classified navigational data, making the possibility of unknown space, where mining and trade settlements could be built and abandoned in the space of years possible.

Yeah, but whole spans of space for hidden civilizations inside the disk spanning sectors? That's got to be smaller than they say or beyond the disk. Furthermore, your assertion that the Chiss would be classified is an ad hoc rationalization and supposition. ROTS ICS tells us that Yoda found only a score of existing worlds which weren't to be found on the accessible archives, which included

[PainRack]

Yeah, but whole spans of space for hidden civilizations inside the disk spanning sectors? That's got to be smaller than they say or beyond the disk. Furthermore, your assertion that the Chiss would be classified is an ad hoc rationalization and supposition. ROTS ICS tells us that Yoda found only a score of existing worlds which weren't to be found on the accessible archives, which included

I appear to have misunderstood your earlier post. What do you mean by not within the galaxy? A neighbouring cluster of stars or simply systems that are outside the disk and spiral?

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm bored, tired, and I'm sure I might be repeating something someone already said, but I don't care. BEar with me anyhow.

The largest numbers I can recall for the Galactic Republic were a million member worlds and 50 million some protectorates, though later on this got changed to "millions of member worlds" and a vague but implied large number of protectorates colonies and whatnot. Given probable numbers of Senators and the average number ofw orlds in ROTS and the DK books, the total number of worlds in the Republic proper were in the hundreds of millions.

The Empire is going to be at least as large, if not larger. Certain WEg sourcs noted the empire as having "billions" of worlds (the main rules in the revised edition and IIRC the SOTE sourcebook) under its aegis directly. But we know (mainly from Publius' work) that the Emperor exerted substantial control over alot of other places outside the Empire (The Centrality, Hutt Space, the Corporate Sector, etc.) which further expanded its scope.

Insofar as the Unknown Regions go, they weren't (originally at least) one large pie-shaped area as some maps imply, they were scattered pockets of space beyond "wild space" (the edge of the Outer Rim, ,basically.) These basically just represented places "off the charts" (Kinda like Kamino in ANH, and we know of lots of similar areas cropping up due to mention in the ROTS ICS) = some were known to the Rebels, some ot the Empire, some to smugglers, etc. Like the Deep Core routes, they just weren't "publicly known" areas of space. (This is reinforced by the fact we know Thrawn was suppsoeldy "exploring" such regions, but actually caving out and establishing military bases in those regions, which would fall in the "regions known to the Empire" bit.)

And, since we know from aOTC that the galaxy was basically charted/known at least in broad strokes (the map in the Jedi library, though there's one on Mustafar in ROTS too.), any "unknown regions" had to crop up deliberately later (regions deleted from records, in other words.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, but whole spans of space for hidden civilizations inside the disk spanning sectors? That's got to be smaller than they say or beyond the disk. Furthermore, your assertion that the Chiss would be classified is an ad hoc rationalization and supposition. ROTS ICS tells us that Yoda found only a score of existing worlds which weren't to be found on the accessible archives, which included

I appear to have misunderstood your earlier post. What do you mean by not within the galaxy? A neighbouring cluster of stars or simply systems that are outside the disk and spiral?

The map shows an edge to the disk, and off some distance beyond is a star cluster where the Ssi-ruuvi are said to come from.

[PainRack]

The map shows an edge to the disk, and off some distance beyond is a star
cluster where the Ssi-ruuvi are said to come from.

And with regards to the Chiss?

[Bakustra]

The map shows an edge to the disk, and off some distance beyond is a star
cluster where the Ssi-ruuvi are said to come from.

And with regards to the Chiss?

Their territory is centred around a globular cluster. Those are not found within the galaxy's disk itself, but only within the galactic halo, as they are satellites of the galactic core. This means the Chiss must be inhabitants of the halo, not the disk.

[PainRack]

The map shows an edge to the disk, and off some distance beyond is a star
cluster where the Ssi-ruuvi are said to come from.

And with regards to the Chiss?

Their territory is centred around a globular cluster. Those are not found within the galaxy's disk itself, but only within the galactic halo, as they are satellites of the galactic core. This means the Chiss must be inhabitants of the halo, not the disk.

In that case, I must apologise. I read IP statement as suggesting Chiss space was outside the galaxy itself.

[Havok]

With the speed of hyperdrives, whether someone is in the halo, the disk, the core or even just outside the galaxy, doesn't really matter. The only issue would be uncharted navigational obstacles. Once that minor issue was dealt with it would be almost a non issue to subjugate any spot in or on the edges of any part of the galaxy. The only protection from Palpatine's control would be complete isolation and anonymity. Once that is lost, you are pretty much a subject of the Empire. Just because you are beneath Palpatine's notice, doesn't mean you aren't subject to his will.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well what "is" the galaxy? This is probably legally arguable in the GFFA the same way that Russia et al is arguing about the status of subsurface seamounts and mountain ranges. Personally, I suspect the Empire used some unprecedented, "anything within the dominant gravitation of the galactic center" definition and accordingly claimed everything, just like the colonial powers of ages past. I suspect the Galactic Empire had pretensions of ecumenism. The galactic halo is, astronomically speaking, part of the galaxy proper, just not part of the disk. I don't think the Unknown Regions is part of the spiral disk itself, but the halo and distant globular clusters and satellite galaxies are ripe locations. Not necessarily that they were never charted either, but the charts have no been kept up to date and they're so far or worthless people rarely visit or interact with them. But I doubt either of those would be so for continuous expanses within the galactic disk and outside the inner galactic bulge.