GL's view of Vader in ANH vs ROTS

[Stravo]

When the OT came out on DVD with GL Commentaries and before the release of ROTS I remember I pointed out that GL stated in his commentary for ANH that Vader should be viewed as a tragic/pathetic figure. He was portrayed as no more than another of the Emperor's flukies fighting it out on the Deathstar for the Emperor's approval and just trying to one up each other. GL specifically states that Vader went from being the number 2 guy in the Empire to just another high level flunky.

When you look at ROTS and Palpatine's attitude towards Vader - an almost paternalistic caring and obsession with his well being (i.e. "I sense Lord Vader is in danger" - from halfway around the galaxy and it has been established that such bonds usually form between people that have deep feelings or connections with each other as Vader to Luke and Luke to Leia) can this really hold water in ANH?

Palpatine did everything in his power to save Vader when he was crippled on Mustafar yet all his goals had been accomplished. The Jedi were all but dead, the Republic was his, the Sith had won. Why go through the trouble of rescuing a flunky? Vader had done his part, a truly evil Palpatine who thought of everyone as pawns and disposable assets would have left Vader to die on Mustafar and just rousted himself up a new apprentice. The EU is littered with "Almost" Vaders so it couldn't have been that hard to replace him. After all he was just a high level flunky.

Yet Palpatine had grand visions of Vader surpassing him and suceeding him. He even taunts Yoda with these plans in their duel in ROTS.

What happened between ROTS and ANH to support GL's view of the tragic/pathetic Vader? In Dark lord, the EU novel that occurs right after ROTS, Vader is seen by Palpatine as a cripple that needs motivation to get back into fighting form. Perhaps treating him like crap as just a flunky was a form of motivation?

What are your thoughts? Do events from ROTS fly in the face of GL's assertions that Vader was just a high level flunky? Or is there support for this view in the films and EU?

[Drooling Iguana]

Maybe some time between RotS and ANH Palpatine realised that Vader was never going to return to his full potential.

[NetKnight]

Perhaps the image of Vader as a flunky was a useful public face by ANH. After all, what is arguably the most important reason Vader was on the DS1 is to watch Tarkin, and check any imperial ambitions he might have. While Tarkin would know this, he would be far more likley to try to include the flunky Vader in any plots then the Emporor's right hand man Vader.

While this public image of estrangment would take some time to build, it is inconcievable that Palpatine, of all people, would be so short sighted that he could not start the project of Vader's public image durring the progress of the Death Star project.

[Gunhead]

It could be Palpatine felt that Vader wasn't 100% behind his grand scheme. Palpatine got to Anakin by convincing him that the jedi we're going to betray the republic, in addition to lots of personal anguish. Anakin felt a lot of guilt about a shit load of things and some of that must have carried over to Vader.
Palpatine started a galactic scale war without a hint of guilt or remorse. This makes palpy a much strong leader type than Vader. I mean Vader did do the emperor's bidding but he has always been ordered around by others.
So Palpy started thinking that Vader after all didn't have the right stuff to be a leader. It could have taken years for their relationship to deteriorate to this level, but even after so many years Vader was still a broken man who by all accounts felt the guilt for killing his wife and kids.

Maybe Palpatine at first did think that Vader should succeed him, but after 20 years he had come to view himself as indispensable and was reluctant to pass on the throne.

I do feel there's a big difference between the "flunky" Vader in ANH and the Vader in ESB or ROTJ. In ESB he's going after Luke which to me seems to drive him on even if it's just so he can one up Palpatine.
The opening crawl of ESB suggest a highly energetic Vader instead of a Vader that's just doing as he's told.

After ANH there's room at the top and Vader did grab a piece of it. I haven't read the EU material that covers the time between ANH and ESB, but I don't see why just the reappearance of Obi-Wan wouldn't be enough to jolt Vader back into action.

My 2cents

-Gunhead

[Elfdart]

Vader was damaged goods when Sidious put him back together.

[Civil War Man]

I think the standard explanation has already been covered. Even though the suit keeps him alive, Vader probably funnels a lot of his power into being able to ignore what is probably constant near-crippling pain.

Also, it is hard to tell Vader's standing with the Emperor in ANH (since, you know, the Emperor doesn't appear), but there are moments in ROTJ where Palpatine seems (at least to me) a bit stand-offish with Vader. Though part of this may be because Palpatine was figuring that he would replace Vader with his much less damaged and possibly more potentially powerful son.

Which brings up another question. Since Palpatine had not uncovered the secrets to resurrection at the point of ROTS, he probably wanted Anakin to serve as an heir in the event of his death. A common interpretation of connecting the movies to Dark Empire is that Vader's injuries made Palpatine question whether Vader would live long enough or be powerful enough to succeed him, and so he pursued Plageuis's secrets more fervently, and discovered the method (plus a little extra, since he has been able to resurrect himself, which Plageuis was not capable of) somewhere in the intervening time between ROTS and ROTJ. So why does he want Luke? A host? An heir in case he can't resurrect himself in time? An heir so he doesn't have to bother resurrecting himself?

[Galvatron]

Ignoring the EU bullshit that Palpatine had acheived immortality, it's my belief that he intended the Empire to become a Sith dynasty with Vader inheriting the throne as his successor.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There are several aspects to consider here. First, what was Darth Vader's role intended to be by Palpatine before Mustafar? Second, what was Darth Vader's role with respect to the Emperor according to Palpatine during the time of the Battle of Yavin? As an addendum, one may also consider whether that changed following that time. Thirdly, what was Darth Vader's role with respect to the Emperor from the perspective of others during the time of the Battle of Yavin? Again, one may consider this changed following that battle and also before.

Darth Vader, prior to his near-death experience on Mustafar, was the most naturally talented and powerful Force sensitive in history. He was also popularly known as the young and brave knight-savior of the galaxy (in near mirror image to Palpatine's image as the old and wise statesman-savior of the galaxy which formed the basis for his personality cult) in the guise of "the Hero With No Fear." He was a brilliant warrior and pilot in his own right, in addition to also being a talented general and admiral. He was also newly created as a Sith Apprentice, and was therefore the highest agent-in-place of the new Empire in the now criminalized Jedi Order. At the same time, Palpatine was just being acclaimed Galactic Emperor, and as such, Darth Sidious had only begun to cement a new despotic state and to purge enemies of the state. Also, the Galactic Emperor had no recourse but to aggrandize his personal power during his natural life, and then leave it to his apprentice to exploit. It is only by legacy that Palpatine can salve his malignant narcissism.

We see that in answer to the first question, Lord Vader presented Palpatine with the practical means to cement his rule as legitimate both through prestige - his public image as a heroic savior - and by force - his potentially limitless personal power and skill in the Force as well as his talent as a field commander and tactician. In terms of Palpatine's personality, subverting the Chosen One of Jedi lore and the democratic Republic's Hero With No Fear into his Sith Apprentice and personal enforcer fits right into his malignant narcissism. A perfect microcosm of the subversion of the galaxy as a whole is this bending to his will of even the most powerful of any Force sensitives. One imagines that a Darth Vader-sans-defeat-at-Mustafar would've not been a public figure, instead Anakin Skywalker would have served a public role in legitimizing the Imperial system and spreading it using his military talents and political prestige until, with his limitless power in the Force, he replaced Palpatine as Galactic Emperor and Sith Master. Presumably, he would go on to be the second of an endless despotic dynasty of Sith Masters who would rule over Palpatine's legacy.

The second question is more ambiguous. We know that at this time, Darth Vader has been horribly maimed and is now permanently and uninterruptably dependent on his internal cybernetic implants and is practically dependent on multiple prosthesis and his armored suit for survival. His previous personal potential in the Force is now stymied either physically or psychologically, but by Yavin he has practically overcome many of his various physical and psychological limitations.

Furthermore, by this time the Galactic Emperor has discovered and is practically proficient in essence transference (e.g., Dr. Bevel Lemelisk days after the Battle of Yavin in Darksaber), and the requisite cloning infrastructure has been in his control since Kinman Doriana's machinations after the Battle of Cartao in the early Clone War. Accordingly, his dreams of immortality and ultimate apotheosis are now practical possibilities. As such, it is doubtful he now had any intention, whole or otherwise, to permit Lord Vader or any prospective apprentice or other favorite to succeed him. Nevertheless, Lord Vader's continued survival and iron-grip on his seat at Palpatine's right hand and as his Sith Apprentice, despite the existence of prospective rivals (cf. Inquisitor Jerec in his guise as Sith Apprentice, and Prince Xizor of Falleen or the Baron Tagge as Palpatine's personal favorite and his status of political influence), as well as his probable elevation to Supreme Commander of Armed Forces following the Battle of Yavin, suggests he remained uniquely useful and uniquely capable amongst Palpatine's servants. He would remain a Force-talented demigod among Force sensitives, outclassing every other Force sensate minion of Palpatine's. He remained capable as an admiral or general as he demonstrated as Supreme Commander and as commander-in-chief of Death Squadron. And although maimed, disfigured, and imprisoned within his suit, and therefore useless to Palpatine in his identity as Anakin Skywalker, hero of heroes of the Clone War and savior of the Republic, is useful in a new way as the public face of the Sith Order, enabling Palpatine to directly intimidate and strike fear into opponents - or subordinates - by proxy.

In response to the third question, Vader remained typically an outsider to the political machinations and court intrigues that characterized the ruling class of the Galactic Empire, preferring to remain aloof and superior in his own eyes as a Sith Lord and thus above the Force insensate and common beings. However, he also drove little of Imperial policy outside of Jedi hunting as a result. He was perceived as Palpatine's personal enforcer, a kind of public hand that would act where Palpatine's aloof role as Emperor did not permit. However, after Yavin he saw a substantial increase in personal prestige, being elevated at the Emperor's behest to Supreme Commander and being given carte blanche to eradicate the Rebellion and - more importantly, from the perspective of the Sithian "theocracy of two" - collect young Skywalker to be inducted into the way of the Sith.

Indeed, from being a brave hero, beloved by all and guardian of democracy; to a prospective galactic despot with limitless power from his talent in the Force; and to finally a maimed cyborg in a suit, permanently a pawn of Palpatine's with little to no prospects of succeeding him regardless of his prestige as a servant is indeed a story of tragedy. From one who controlled their destiny - for good or for evil; for service or for power - to one who did not and could not, certainly is pathetic. This was largely the result of two major events: Lord Vader's defeat by the sword of Master Kenobi and subsequent near-death, and Palpatine's discovery and mastery of practical immortality and apotheosis.

As for why have an apprentice at all, why need a powerful first among minions that could potentially be a threat? Palpatine has ambitions of apotheosis engendered by his malignant narcissism. It makes him stronger and more ultimately powerful to corrupt and bend to his will any sources of power or strength external him, even those greater than his natural talents. Palpatine considered it an integral aspect of his Shadow Hand Strategy to find, capture, and corrupt Luke Skywalker into a new Sith Apprentice. The practical answer is it personally pleased Palpatine and probably meaningfully and significantly increased his own powers.

[Kurgan]

I see this as just another way in which the original story concept (as epitomized in "Star Wars" 1977) has changed, to the point where more and more the original film sticks out from the rest of the "saga."

One could see another change in the way the Emperor goes from a behind-the-scenes character that's first written as little more than a corrupt figurehead (an instigator who's now a puppet) to being the main, all-powerful villain of the entire series.

[FOG3]

When you look at ROTS and Palpatine's attitude towards Vader - an almost paternalistic caring and obsession with his well being (i.e. "I sense Lord Vader is in danger"

You mean: "I sense Lord Vader is in danger [because I'm going to pretend Yoda didn't tell me that a few minutes ago so I can look all omniscient to my underlings]"

]Yet Palpatine had grand visions of Vader surpassing him and suceeding him. He even taunts Yoda with these plans in their duel in ROTS.

You mean:
Palpy fleeing in mortal terror.

Yoda blocking his escape route confidently declares, "If so powerful are you, why leave?"

"My apprentice will surpass us both!"

That was less taunting and more "I might be screwed, but I'll win in the end." The bastard got lucky both in the movie and the novel. Despite the waxing poetic, who was exhausted and wouldn't have been able to continue in the novel? Palpy, while Yoda disengaged under his own power with no issues. Yoda's revelation was as much winning the battle would lose the war as anything else. In the movie he just got lucky the guard rail was more accommodating to him then Yoda. The lack of vigor in his cackles as he's hanging on to the platform for dear life don't exactly inspire confidence. Nor does the likely fate of his lightsaber.

Ever consider that he might want insurance in case Yoda decided he really wanted Palpy's head afterall?

[Alexian Cale]

That was less taunting and more "I might be screwed, but I'll win in the end." The bastard got lucky both in the movie and the novel.

This argument really isn't relevant, but I am personally interested in this theory. Has it occured to you that we could just as easily conclude that Yoda himself was the benefactor of luck? He likely would have never managed to escape Imperial Center had the Emperor not have immediately fled Coruscant to rescue Anakin, given the fact that -- despite what you've implied -- the Emperor and Yoda are on par with one another, and the presence of stormtroopers and military personnel.

Despite the waxing poetic, who was exhausted and wouldn't have been able to continue in the novel? Palpy, while Yoda disengaged under his own power with no issues.

I disagree.

The assumption that Yoda "disengaged under his own power with no issues" is irrevocably false, unless you're suggesting that the Jedi Master intentionally allowed himself to be blasted off the pod away from an opponent that you imply that he outclassed. Yoda wasn't in control of the lightning at all and the collosal fall he suffered testifies to an answer that contradicts your idea.

Moreover, a Jedi's power relies primarily on defense rather than offense. As aggressive as Yoda's form is, we know for a canon fact that he -- not Palpatine -- was disarmed. Sidious has a natural offensive advantage and his lightsaber may or may not still be on his person; lest we forget that, before the duel was interrupted with the contest between Anakin and Obi-Wan, Yoda and the Dark Lord were locked in melee combat and when the fight resumed, Palpatine had already crossed the entirety of the Senate chamber. That would ultimately conclude that Palpatine managed to escape from an armed, aggressive opponent (who sought him dead) in close quarters combat and put a massive amount of distance between them.

Yoda's revelation was as much winning the battle would lose the war as anything else.

I'm curious as to the logic behind this. Are you suggesting that, had he killed Sidious (which you make it clear he had the power to do), he would have still lost the war? I'm not seeing how. Logic concludes that -- in tandem with the novelization -- Yoda merely understood that, at that point, he could not defeat Emperor Palpatine in single combat.

In the movie he just got lucky the guard rail was more accommodating to him then Yoda.

Yes, and Anakin's lucky that he didn't roll all the way into the lava when Obi-Wan dismembered him; Mace Windu was lucky that Palpatine didn't go for him initially; Yoda was lucky Palpatine didn't loose the dogs of war on his ass; Obi-Wan was lucky that Maul toyed with him; the list goes on and on and on.

Had Palpatine fell, he would have likely suffered a similar injury that Yoda did. And then what? They'd both be sore and exhausted, but Palpatine would still have the offensive advantage, the fact that it was his "turf", and armed soldiers were (presumably) nearby. Yoda would still be no better off than before. So what point are you trying to make?

The lack of vigor in his cackles as he's hanging on to the platform for dear life don't exactly inspire confidence.

His cackles are absolutely chilling. Yoda doesn't seem to be smug at that point, either.

Nor does the likely fate of his lightsaber.

Again, that would be conjecture. We know for a fact that Yoda was cleanly and soundly disarmed.

[Illuminatus Primus]

When you look at ROTS and Palpatine's attitude towards Vader - an almost paternalistic caring and obsession with his well being (i.e. "I sense Lord Vader is in danger"

You mean: "I sense Lord Vader is in danger [because I'm going to pretend Yoda didn't tell me that a few minutes ago so I can look all omniscient to my underlings]"

]Yet Palpatine had grand visions of Vader surpassing him and suceeding him. He even taunts Yoda with these plans in their duel in ROTS.

You mean:
Palpy fleeing in mortal terror.

Yoda blocking his escape route confidently declares, "If so powerful are you, why leave?"

"My apprentice will surpass us both!"

That was less taunting and more "I might be screwed, but I'll win in the end." The bastard got lucky both in the movie and the novel. Despite the waxing poetic, who was exhausted and wouldn't have been able to continue in the novel? Palpy, while Yoda disengaged under his own power with no issues. Yoda's revelation was as much winning the battle would lose the war as anything else. In the movie he just got lucky the guard rail was more accommodating to him then Yoda. The lack of vigor in his cackles as he's hanging on to the platform for dear life don't exactly inspire confidence. Nor does the likely fate of his lightsaber.

Ever consider that he might want insurance in case Yoda decided he really wanted Palpy's head afterall?

Yeah, because the novel doesn't make it explicit that Yoda didn't have it, and never did it. He couldn't win. Hurray, agenda-based analysis!

[Alexian Cale]

Agreed. To say that either combatant completely dominated the other is ridiculous. It's plainly obvious that neither one of them is stronger than the other by major disparity.

[FOG3]

Hurray, agenda-based analysis!

My you've managed to describe your own actions in one sentence, how efficient of you. Reality check fanboy, what quibbles you can try to drag out don't change the fact Palpatine's reaction was one of fear clear in his attempt to runaway and clearly visible on his face every time Yoda gains an edge, which was fundamentaly the point. Despite your fanboy over exuberance for Palpatine's capabilities Yoda is not somebody Palptaine can take lightly.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hurray, agenda-based analysis!

My you've managed to describe your own actions in one sentence, how efficient of you. Reality check fanboy, what quibbles you can try to drag out don't change the fact Palpatine's reaction was one of fear clear in his attempt to runaway and clearly visible on his face every time Yoda gains an edge, which was fundamentaly the point. Despite your fanboy over exuberance for Palpatine's capabilities Yoda is not somebody Palptaine can take lightly.

Don't burn the rubber on your shoes, backpeddling. "I might be screwed, but I'll win in the end"? Palpatine was cackling megalomaniacally the whole scene. The novel confirms that the battle, while close, was fundamentally not in Yoda's favor, certainly not the one-sided 'petrified Palpatine' scenario you concoct - conveniently discounting the fact that Lord Sidious got the best of Yoda with Sith lightning, which caught him by surprise and overwhelmed his defenses. Palpatine was similarly caught off-guard by the force of Yoda's telekinesis - but this only makes my point that it was a much more balanced contest than your implication. Certainly he doesn't simply brush off the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, but that doesn't mean you were stating the balanced position you are now, then.

[Alexian Cale]

Hurray, agenda-based analysis!

My you've managed to describe your own actions in one sentence, how efficient of you. Reality check fanboy, what quibbles you can try to drag out don't change the fact Palpatine's reaction was one of fear clear in his attempt to runaway and clearly visible on his face every time Yoda gains an edge, which was fundamentaly the point. Despite your fanboy over exuberance for Palpatine's capabilities Yoda is not somebody Palptaine can take lightly.

Actually, the account offered by Illuminatus is objective; yours isn't. You're quick to label him a fanboy, yet he's explicitly clear that the fight was balanced. He's not proclaiming that Palpatine owned him or dominated him, he even makes it explicitly clear that the two combatants were evenly matched. Which they were. Your original post is completely unfounded and you did ignore some specific points where Palpatine gained the upper hand.

[Androsphinx]

I always assumed that when the decision was made to have Vader be Luke's father, Vader importance to the plot and central characters was mirrored by his elevation in importance in the Empire as a whole (not that this was necessarily concious)