Girl expelled for possession of a butter knife

[Darth Wong]

All these zero-tolerance rules exist because of the decades-long assault upon government by conservatives and so-called "libertarians". That's what makes it so ironic when they get upset to hear about things like this happening.

To expand, zero-tolerance rules are based upon the idea that government employees such as school principals and court judges are incapable of making decisions. This is not a matter of individual selection (which could theoretically be improved by firing incompetent individuals), but rather, it is a matter of general rule: they are incompetent by definition because they are government employees, and all government is bad. Therefore, legislators and voters must micromanage their jobs for them, telling them what they can and can't do in such exacting detail that no room whatsoever is left for error, individual judgment, "activism", etc.

Now of course, libertarians and conservatives will get upset if you blame them for rules like this. But that's the bitter fruit of decades of anti-government propaganda.

I forgot who first said this, but it's true: "Republicans say that government is the problem, then they get elected and prove it."

[sketerpot]

Students who are semi-literate and don't know anything about anything are damn near unsinkable, but a good student with a butter knife must be expelled?

Does anybody in the entire universe think this makes sense? Who votes for these zero-tolerance policies?

[Durandal]

I'm confused. Who are the children in this story again?

[His Divine Shadow]

*remembers when I used to be able to bring a leatherman to high school every day...

I brought my gun to school once when I was 15 (about 11 years ago), I had just gotten it and I picked it up from the gunstore as well as a case during lunch break, then I carried it with me until school was out. Several people where interested ofcourse in my new rifle but nobody called the cops and the teachers told me to keep a close look after it so it didn't get stolen.

[Flagg]

I had a friend who got expelled for accidentally brining a swiss army knife to school, realizing he had done it, and turned it in at the office so he wouldn't get in trouble.

You know a policy if fucked up when it discourages responsible behaviour. It's akin to having a law that says holding another person's money is an automatic felony, in which case you go to jail for returning a lost wallet.

Yeah, when his parents raised hell about it the school board suggested that the reward for his responsibility was not being arrested on a weapons charge. He ultimately had to go to a school for kids who are expelled (because the government still has a legal obligation to educate) for the rest of the semester.

Later that year I made the mistake of forgetting to take a folding blade fishing knife out of my jeans before washing them and wearing them to school the next day. I realised what had happened in the lunch line when I reached into my pocket to get change. I just kept my mouth shut. Lesson learned.

[Flagg]

I'm confused. Who are the children in this story again?

I'd love to join in and bash the administration at that particular school, but they could lose their jobs and have their entire careers wrecked if they gave the kid a pass. All it would take is one hysterical PTA member getting wind of it and running to the school board.

The school board not getting their heads out of their asses and reversing the suspension is the real fucking crime here.

[Darth Wong]

*remembers when I used to be able to bring a leatherman to high school every day...

I brought my gun to school once when I was 15 (about 11 years ago), I had just gotten it and I picked it up from the gunstore as well as a case during lunch break, then I carried it with me until school was out. Several people where interested ofcourse in my new rifle but nobody called the cops and the teachers told me to keep a close look after it so it didn't get stolen.

Why the fuck is this supposed to be a good story? Kids carrying guns to school is exactly how these zero-tolerance policies got public support in the first place.

[DrMckay]

Perhaps it's because Divine Shadow is from Finland, which does not have a near-fetishistic obsession with firearms, like America. Also, he implied he got permission from a teacher.

Different country, different norms.

(Although I am unaware how much gun violence there is in Finland, or if there are many school shootings. I'm sure I would have heard of them.)

you know, the whole, "It hasn't *yet* happened here" thingy...


for the record, I carried fencing foils around school, as I had the class immediately after. this was around five or six years ago, and the faculty did require some persuading, because, you know, a dull flexible aluminium stick is JUST AS DEADLY *Sarcasm* as a firearm...

Finland, Finland, Finland, that's the place for me....

[His Divine Shadow]

Why the fuck is this supposed to be a good story? Kids carrying guns to school is exactly how these zero-tolerance policies got public support in the first place.

Hey just illustrating culturual differences (or similarities?) to america, you can take the moral of the story entierly as you want it, I'm not sure if I wanted to portray it negatively or positively even now after the fact. It's just how it is here(though yeah it wouldn't happen in the cities). I guess I thought it funny that here in secure ole yurop we do things the "hardened" yanks might start stuttering about, one-upping the americans so to speak.

[His Divine Shadow]

(Although I am unaware how much gun violence there is in Finland, or if there are many school shootings. I'm sure I would have heard of them.)

Yeah we haven't had any school shootings that I am aware of. And gun violence is a small part of violence in Finland, finns like fists and knives better for reason.

[His Divine Shadow]

Gah, for *some* reason. My writing skills seems to have degraded after I got that wireless keyboard...

[DrMckay]

apparently some european gov'ts and societies use this strange concept called a "logic" and enforce laws using an odd type of thing called a "measured response."

In elementary school, my pals and I invented our own space empires, and drew massive battles between them on land, sea, air and space. this went on for the entirety of fourth grade. (and was fun as hell)

I wonder how that would be regarded now...


It's a scary world when children can be punished for drawing, or when one kid beats up another, both are suspended for "fighting" I suppose the little guy with the face resembling raw hamburger Simply MUST have done an equal amount of "emotional damage" to yon mini-hulk...

[PeZook]

You know, America is breeding herself a generation of people distrustful of all authority, used to keeping their mouth shut about honest mistakes and disdainful of school and education.

Can I get a cheer for that? Yeah, I thought so. Enjoy your continuing degrade, America. Or get your shit together, but that's crazy talk I suppose.

[Tribun]

That's simply crazy...

Btw., do you know that it is allowed here to take a butter knife with you to school? No teacher would even blink an eye seeing you use one to put the butter on your bread. Or in other words: they have their minds on the really important things in their jobs.

And when I got trouble for practising drawing axes in 7th grade, it was because I did it on something where I shouldn't, not because of the content.

How the hell did America end up with so many crazy ideas? And many here ignore zero tolerance ideas, admitting that it didn't work at all.

[Tsyroc]

Has anyone else seen the Kentucky Fried Chicken commerical that starts out with a whole bunch of officer workers screaming, "she's got a knife" while ducking for cover and running for their lives?

The boss starts trying to talk some woman into "putting the knife down".

The woman points out that "KFC is real food and requires a fork and knife to eat". Which then gets the boss to give everyone the all clear because "It's KFC people".

What I liked about it was that people were freaking out about a plastic knife from a fast food restaurant. I mean, as stupid as people freaking out about a butter knife is the commercial really lays into the stupid climate of feer in the US by having people overreact to a plastic knife.

This fear crap in the US is really annoying. I get concerned about accidently taking a pocket knife with me because someone might freak out and see it as a weapon. I carry a minature box cutter on my person at work and some people look at me funny when I get it out and use it to open boxes or cut stuff. I'm sorry, but it's a fucking tool and that's what it's for you knobs!

[Lisa]

Has anyone else seen the Kentucky Fried Chicken commerical that starts out with a whole bunch of officer workers screaming, "she's got a knife" while ducking for cover and running for their lives?

The boss starts trying to talk some woman into "putting the knife down".

The woman points out that "KFC is real food and requires a fork and knife to eat". Which then gets the boss to give everyone the all clear because "It's KFC people".

What I liked about it was that people were freaking out about a plastic knife from a fast food restaurant. I mean, as stupid as people freaking out about a butter knife is the commercial really lays into the stupid climate of feer in the US by having people overreact to a plastic knife.

haven't seen the comercial but... i believe there was a case of zero tolerance against a kid who's mom packed his lunch for him. I looked for it briefly the other day but promptly forgot about it when I left for work...

My work has a no consealed firearms allowed policy which I find rather funny because in canada you're not likely to have a concealed carry permit

[chitoryu12]

I had a friend who got expelled for accidentally brining a swiss army knife to school, realizing he had done it, and turned it in at the office so he wouldn't get in trouble.

Which basically encourages everyone who breaks the rules, especially on contraband, to just hide it and don't say anything, which in turn makes you look like you intended to bring the item.

[Spin Echo]

This is even more ridiculous than the cases where klds get expelled for having tylenol at school.

I'm really curious to see a picture of this "non-traditional butter knife". I'm also curious as to how it compares to the silverware in the school's cafeteria. From the sounds of it, the butter knife seems no worse than the knives we used to get with the lunches at school.

[Big Orange]

apparently some european gov'ts and societies use this strange concept called a "logic" and enforce laws using an odd type of thing called a "measured response."

In elementary school, my pals and I invented our own space empires, and drew massive battles between them on land, sea, air and space. this went on for the entirety of fourth grade. (and was fun as hell)

I wonder how that would be regarded now...


It's a scary world when children can be punished for drawing, or when one kid beats up another, both are suspended for "fighting" I suppose the little guy with the face resembling raw hamburger Simply MUST have done an equal amount of "emotional damage" to yon mini-hulk...

That is what potentially scares me, with misplaced do-gooders in authority who always pick up on stupid things like that and jump to conclusions that the kids who doodle tanks, rockets, zombies, Nazis, stickmen heads exploding or Daleks into their text books are somehow pontential future mass murderers - having zero tolerance to kids doing that sort of thing is essentially punishing them for thought crimes.

In my school years the only people who made a big deal about me doodling tanks, rockets, zombies, Nazis, stickmen heads exploding or Daleks into my text book were dumbass fellow students trying to wind me up.

And what about kids and young adults typing out violent stories? I guess moronic fools in educational authority are going to ban hapless students for doing that was well, when that Korean-American nutter who did the VT massacre was well known for typing out play scripts that were grim and violent in tone...

[General Zod]

I'd love to join in and bash the administration at that particular school, but they could lose their jobs and have their entire careers wrecked if they gave the kid a pass. All it would take is one hysterical PTA member getting wind of it and running to the school board.

Heaven forbid they have the balls to admit that it was a harmless mistake and enforce the policy with anything less than an iron fist.

[Flagg]

I'd love to join in and bash the administration at that particular school, but they could lose their jobs and have their entire careers wrecked if they gave the kid a pass. All it would take is one hysterical PTA member getting wind of it and running to the school board.

Heaven forbid they have the balls to admit that it was a harmless mistake and enforce the policy with anything less than an iron fist.

So they should just break the law and risk losing their jobs?

[General Zod]

So they should just break the law and risk losing their jobs?

As opposed to jeopardizing some kid's future over something incredibly petty and asinine that should be handled on a case by case basis instead? With teacher unions the way they are it's doubtful one of them will be fired for "overlooking" something so incredibly minor.

[Flagg]

So they should just break the law and risk losing their jobs?

As opposed to jeopardizing some kid's future over something incredibly petty and asinine that should be handled on a case by case basis instead? With teacher unions the way they are it's doubtful one of them will be fired for "overlooking" something so incredibly minor.

School administrators aren't in the Teachers Unions.

The problem is that they have no leeway on the matter anymore. It goes against regulations to overlook the matter. It doesn't help that decent principals are alienated by these regulations so we end up with mindless beurocrats in those positions.

[Lisa]

I'd love to join in and bash the administration at that particular school, but they could lose their jobs and have their entire careers wrecked if they gave the kid a pass. All it would take is one hysterical PTA member getting wind of it and running to the school board.

Heaven forbid they have the balls to admit that it was a harmless mistake and enforce the policy with anything less than an iron fist.

So they should just break the law and risk losing their jobs?

Since when does policy = law?

[Flagg]

Heaven forbid they have the balls to admit that it was a harmless mistake and enforce the policy with anything less than an iron fist.

So they should just break the law and risk losing their jobs?

Since when does policy = law?

Gah, was supposed to be 'rules', not law. Must have got some wires crossed.