Anyone Sick To Death Of Jedi Anything?

[Durandal]

I don't mind Jedi stories in principle, but it just seems like they all go the same way. They have to train to fight some Sith lord somewhere, and they all wind up as Jedi. For example, Corran Horn's Force aptitude was pretty much the ruination of his character, in my opinion. The guy couldn't just have been a good pilot and a good security officer. No, he had to be a wanked-out Jedi too.

The biggest problem is that the entire philosophy behind Jedi and the Force espouses a black and white view of morality, and so all Jedi are basically the same, and all Sith lords are the same. We never hear about some self-taught Force user who's never touched a lightsaber and uses the Force to get out of speeding tickets without becoming ZOMG EVIL!

[Darth Smiley]

The problem with Jedi is there is no real balance to them...there seems to be no real penalties for somehow being able to have telekinesis, precognition, enhanced strength, etc. This is fine in a movie, where one writer (or at least a fairly small group of writers ) decides what happens and can use the Jedi power set to good effect - that is, making the story interesting. But if you open up those powers to many writers, with no hard penalties (that is, the danger of becoming evil really doesn't count, because it is really hard to qualify that directly, and the protagonist of a story just can't be evil) for having that kind of power, and you have trouble. The psykers in WH40K are an excellent example of balance - they are powerful, yes, but there is a real danger of having your soul eaten, and even so a lone psyker (excluding the few, few, few god-like ones) will get stomped by a disciplined infantry squad, or a dose of heavy weapons fire.

The other thing that really annoys me is the seeming lack of anti-Jedi weapons. Maybe I just haven't read enough EU stuff, but I haven't seen the kinds of specialized weapon to negate the Jedis' advantages you would expect, given the kinds of adversaries that the Jedi faced. The Sith in the KOTOR period, and anyone with any reason to dislike the Republic afterward (criminals, revolutionaries,separatists), had every reason to develop cool toys to fry Jedi. Small hand held rockets with large blast radii , or sonic weapons, or something akin to our modern Active Denial System, or even some kind of shotgun-like blaster could turn the tables on the Jedi. Yet we see none of it.

[Lord Pounder]

Jedi wank doesn't bother me half as much as the Mando'wank. I am very bitter because I just finished reading Sacrifice. 80% Mando wank makes a pretty awful book. It was painful to read, really painful. The only good part of the book was Luke inheriting his wifes balls and finally acting like a man.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Small hand held rockets with large blast radii,

Wrist Rockets like Jango and Boba have?

sonic weapons

So you've never heard of sonic detonators and screamers?

something akin to our modern Active Denial System

This is the only one Star Wars doesn't have, that I'm aware of.

some kind of shotgun-like blaster

You mean like the Imperial Blast Cannon or the Rebel CR-1 Blaster Cannon from Battlefront?

Yet we see none of it.

Pretty sure I just proved you wrong.

[Crazedwraith]

I don't mind Jedi stories in principle, but it just seems like they all go the same way. They have to train to fight some Sith lord somewhere, and they all wind up as Jedi. For example, Corran Horn's Force aptitude was pretty much the ruination of his character, in my opinion. The guy couldn't just have been a good pilot and a good security officer. No, he had to be a wanked-out Jedi too.

Oh, I don't know. Corran turned out to be a pretty crappy Jedi. Even when Stackpole was writing him. He pretty much gets owned in lightsaber combat at the end of I, Jedi. Nearly dies at the end of Onslaught and gets gutted at the end of Ruin.

[Lord Poe]

Oh, I don't know. Corran turned out to be a pretty crappy Jedi. Even when Stackpole was writing him. He pretty much gets owned in lightsaber combat at the end of I, Jedi. Nearly dies at the end of Onslaught and gets gutted at the end of Ruin.

Yeah, but in "I, Jedi", he smacks Luke around like a bitch. Luke should have taught him a lesson and grabbed his balls with the Force. Luke may not be Bruce Lee unarmed, but he doesn't HAVE to be.

[Darth Smiley]

Small hand held rockets with large blast radii,

Wrist Rockets like Jango and Boba have?

sonic weapons

So you've never heard of sonic detonators and screamers?

something akin to our modern Active Denial System

This is the only one Star Wars doesn't have, that I'm aware of.

some kind of shotgun-like blaster

You mean like the Imperial Blast Cannon or the Rebel CR-1 Blaster Cannon from Battlefront?

Yet we see none of it.

Pretty sure I just proved you wrong.

Thats precisely the problem - Star Wars has the technology, but for some reason the Jedi are magically immune to it. Thats what bothers me. I don't think I made this very clear though, and you are right. Star Wars DOES have those techs - but why don't we ever see the Jedi getting raped by them (again, maybe I haven't read enough EU. I you know of any books were that does happen, lemme know).

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Jedi/Sith are the raison d'etre of Star Wars; stop complaining about them. If any shmo or organization could hire muscle and buy them magic anti-Jedi tech, they wouldn't be effective and there wouldn't be any way to let them be so influential without nerfing the villains. Of course, I would like to see Jedi who were more Batmanesque, investigating, sneaking around, being subtle like Ben in ANH, etc. I wouldn't mind some Jedi being walking one-man armies and wrecking balls, but I'd prefer most had to be more subtle and generally were surgical and precise.

[Civil War Man]

Thats precisely the problem - Star Wars has the technology, but for some reason the Jedi are magically immune to it. Thats what bothers me. I don't think I made this very clear though, and you are right. Star Wars DOES have those techs - but why don't we ever see the Jedi getting raped by them (again, maybe I haven't read enough EU. I you know of any books were that does happen, lemme know).

You can still make a perfectly good story with falliable Jedi, even if they are powerful enough to school entire armies. A major point about the Jedi is that trying to use brute force to get at a Jedi is looking at the problem the wrong way.

For example, KOTOR 2 has at least two characters (Atton and HK-47) discuss with the main character about effective ways to attack Jedi. And both of them talked about how it was more effective to go about it indirectly, with stuff like booby traps and psychological warfare. Brute force was to be used on the Jedi's allies, because they wouldn't be as difficult to take down and would cause the Jedi considerable distress.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Small hand held rockets with large blast radii,

Wrist Rockets like Jango and Boba have?

sonic weapons

So you've never heard of sonic detonators and screamers?

something akin to our modern Active Denial System

This is the only one Star Wars doesn't have, that I'm aware of.

some kind of shotgun-like blaster

You mean like the Imperial Blast Cannon or the Rebel CR-1 Blaster Cannon from Battlefront?

Yet we see none of it.

Pretty sure I just proved you wrong.

Thats precisely the problem - Star Wars has the technology, but for some reason the Jedi are magically immune to it. Thats what bothers me. I don't think I made this very clear though, and you are right. Star Wars DOES have those techs - but why don't we ever see the Jedi getting raped by them (again, maybe I haven't read enough EU. I you know of any books were that does happen, lemme know).

Because a Jedi can easilly TK your grenade right back at you, and I may be imagining it but I sort of remember a Jedi doing the same with a minirocket. Then there's the fact that it's a pretty big galaxy, it's not economic to purchase equipment specifically for Jedi when there's only 10k of them in a galaxy of quadrillions.

[Sidewinder]

The problem with the Jedi is that they're portrayed as mentally retarded children who suddenly find that they have superpowers-- see Luke Skywalker in the shit from Kevin J. Anderson's ass. If a good writer portrayed the Jedi as... I dunno... SPECIAL FORCES OPERATORS, like the Delta Force members in 'Black Hawk Down', then the problem would be solved.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oh, I don't know. Corran turned out to be a pretty crappy Jedi. Even when Stackpole was writing him. He pretty much gets owned in lightsaber combat at the end of I, Jedi. Nearly dies at the end of Onslaught and gets gutted at the end of Ruin.

Yeah, but in "I, Jedi", he smacks Luke around like a bitch. Luke should have taught him a lesson and grabbed his balls with the Force. Luke may not be Bruce Lee unarmed, but he doesn't HAVE to be.

Retarded; Luke beat Sidious in single combat a year and a half/two years previously. He should totally obliterate Corran while even 1/10th trying.

[Crazedwraith]

Oh, I don't know. Corran turned out to be a pretty crappy Jedi. Even when Stackpole was writing him. He pretty much gets owned in lightsaber combat at the end of I, Jedi. Nearly dies at the end of Onslaught and gets gutted at the end of Ruin.

Yeah, but in "I, Jedi", he smacks Luke around like a bitch. Luke should have taught him a lesson and grabbed his balls with the Force. Luke may not be Bruce Lee unarmed, but he doesn't HAVE to be.

Retarded; Luke beat Sidious in single combat a year and a half/two years previously. He should totally obliterate Corran while even 1/10th trying.

1) Luke can whup Corran's ass effortlessly. even Corran admits at the end of the book. When he gets his ass kicked by one Jenasaari. Luke effortlessly takes down half a dozen.
2) It was not a fight. It was a practise duel. There is a huge difference. The objective for Luke is not to win. It's to teach. Corran won't learn anything if Luke instantly pwns him.
3) The whole point of the scene was Luke was so lost in being a whiny emo bitch that he wasn't being a jedi anymore. Corran's trying to make him actually act. IIRC Luke more or less gets tired of the fight at the end and just lets Corran run smack into a force wall.

[Revan's Fire]

Personally, if kept in the realms of the KOTOR games, where Jedi often fall victim to traps, gasses, ambushes, etcetera, I have no problem with it. As was accurately touched on earlier by Civil War Man, I feel that if Jedi are vulnerable to psychological warfare and its ilk, than there shouldn't be a real problem. One thing that made the KOTOR games stick out at me was that the Jedi made real mistakes, and suffered the consequences. If the authors/programmers/whatever keep that in mind, Jedi should be fine.

However, the creators of new works feel that they cannot use old powers in new ways, each generation must utterly outclass the last, for it is so much simpler to say that someone is too weak to fight against the new evil than to actually be forced to come up with a plausible plot that renders the 'old guard' unhelpful or incapacitated in some way.

Also, I too am utterly tired of the Mandowank. I bought Triple Zero after reading warnings here on SDN against it, and paid dearly. Although Hard Contact was brutal, gritty, and refreshing, Triple Zero was an endless tale of how pathetic and weak the Jedi were when compared to the true and honorable warriors of Traviss. Disgusting.

[DrMckay]

I gotta say, I've always liked the way Wedge Antilles was portrayed in the movies and most of the EU, (KJA EXCEPTED) He goes from being "Merely" a skilled (and lucky) pilot to a good leader and tactician, as well as being a pragmatic, and profoundly human, character. (Especially when written by Allston.)

A Career soldier, 'til the war's done. Nothing more, nothing less.

Stackpole wasn't bad either, especially when he mentioned Wedge's hesitation to get to know the new pilots, as he didn't want to get attatched.

[Civil War Man]

I gotta say, I've always liked the way Wedge Antilles was portrayed in the movies and most of the EU, (KJA EXCEPTED) He goes from being "Merely" a skilled (and lucky) pilot to a good leader and tactician, as well as being a pragmatic, and profoundly human, character. (Especially when written by Allston.)

There was also the whole thing about him apparently being the only minor character who is able to avoid dying horribly.

[bz249]

Wrist Rockets like Jango and Boba have? So you've never heard of sonic detonators and screamers? This is the only one Star Wars doesn't have, that I'm aware of. You mean like the Imperial Blast Cannon or the Rebel CR-1 Blaster Cannon from Battlefront? Pretty sure I just proved you wrong.

Thats precisely the problem - Star Wars has the technology, but for some reason the Jedi are magically immune to it. Thats what bothers me. I don't think I made this very clear though, and you are right. Star Wars DOES have those techs - but why don't we ever see the Jedi getting raped by them (again, maybe I haven't read enough EU. I you know of any books were that does happen, lemme know).

Because a Jedi can easilly TK your grenade right back at you, and I may be imagining it but I sort of remember a Jedi doing the same with a minirocket. Then there's the fact that it's a pretty big galaxy, it's not economic to purchase equipment specifically for Jedi when there's only 10k of them in a galaxy of quadrillions.

Well, according to the movies Jedis can be killed by groups of trained soldiers/war droids using bolt action rifles, if
- they are outnumbered by a good margin (and casualities can be very high for the attackers)
- the attackers have the element of surprise
and/or
- the attackers have positional advantage

at least this was the case for the Geonosis Arena and the Order 66 scenes...

[[R_H]]

Well, according to the movies Jedis can be killed by groups of trained soldiers/war droids using bolt action rifles, if
- they are outnumbered by a good margin (and casualities can be very high for the attackers)
- the attackers have the element of surprise
and/or
- the attackers have positional advantage

at least this was the case for the Geonosis Arena and the Order 66 scenes...

Bolt action rifles?

Aren't blasters the standard handweapons in Star Wars?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Well, according to the movies Jedis can be killed by groups of trained soldiers/war droids using bolt action rifles, if
- they are outnumbered by a good margin (and casualities can be very high for the attackers)
- the attackers have the element of surprise
and/or
- the attackers have positional advantage

at least this was the case for the Geonosis Arena and the Order 66 scenes...

What?

No, none of the droids or clonetroopers had slugthrowers of any make or model. Indeed as proven by Jedi Master Obi-Wan a force user can throw up a force shield to block projectile qeapons.

[Raptor 597]

Some of the Jedi stuff is hashed out far too much in my opinion. What I'd like to see more of is stuff like the Jedi Council Series Acts of War. It would be interesting to see more of the Jedi acting as peacekeepers in the Old Republic without having them run into dark side adepts every five minutes.

[Aratech]

Well, according to the movies Jedis can be killed by groups of trained soldiers/war droids using bolt action rifles, if
- they are outnumbered by a good margin (and casualities can be very high for the attackers)
- the attackers have the element of surprise
and/or
- the attackers have positional advantage

at least this was the case for the Geonosis Arena and the Order 66 scenes...

What?

No, none of the droids or clonetroopers had slugthrowers of any make or model. Indeed as proven by Jedi Master Obi-Wan a force user can throw up a force shield to block projectile qeapons.

Actually, Shatten, it would appear that Clone Engineers carried a form of flechette shotgun. Its apparently pretty powerful, and makes SBD go off like an M-80 firecracker.

However, they'd be of limited use against Jedi. Even Etain Tur-Murkan, miss "I was nearly sent to an agro world because my force powers are so pathetic I can't even convince a dirt farmer to give me a hand" could delflect shrapnel and frag blasts.

[bz249]

Well, according to the movies Jedis can be killed by groups of trained soldiers/war droids using bolt action rifles, if
- they are outnumbered by a good margin (and casualities can be very high for the attackers)
- the attackers have the element of surprise
and/or
- the attackers have positional advantage

at least this was the case for the Geonosis Arena and the Order 66 scenes...

Bolt action rifles? :wtf:

Aren't blasters the standard handweapons in Star Wars?

Blaster have similar rate of fire as a WW2 bolt action rifle, so for you I change the earlier to this one using weapons which have roughly the same rate of fire as bolt action rifle, so with something which is a rough equivalent of a Star Warsesque bolt action rifle.

[bz249]

Well, according to the movies Jedis can be killed by groups of trained soldiers/war droids using bolt action rifles, if
- they are outnumbered by a good margin (and casualities can be very high for the attackers)
- the attackers have the element of surprise
and/or
- the attackers have positional advantage

at least this was the case for the Geonosis Arena and the Order 66 scenes...

What? :?

No, none of the droids or clonetroopers had slugthrowers of any make or model. Indeed as proven by Jedi Master Obi-Wan a force user can throw up a force shield to block projectile qeapons.

Sure they can block any projectile weapons and droids and clonetroopers are equipped with plasma based weaponary... However the weapons were not fired in bursts, but they had a clip nonetheless... so in those characteristics they are quite similar to a bolt action rifle.
And yes, I was lazy in that post.

[Sarevok]

The problem is not jedi wank or too may jedi. Its merely a symptom of the real problem of bad plotlines and paper mache characters. Even if the jedi were replaced by the gritty scifi setting many here seem fond of the stories will still suck as long as current hacks are writting it.

[Aratech]

Well, according to the movies Jedis can be killed by groups of trained soldiers/war droids using bolt action rifles, if
- they are outnumbered by a good margin (and casualities can be very high for the attackers)
- the attackers have the element of surprise
and/or
- the attackers have positional advantage

at least this was the case for the Geonosis Arena and the Order 66 scenes...

Bolt action rifles?

Aren't blasters the standard handweapons in Star Wars?

Blaster have similar rate of fire as a WW2 bolt action rifle, so for you I change the earlier to this one using weapons which have roughly the same rate of fire as bolt action rifle, so with something which is a rough equivalent of a Star Warsesque bolt action rifle.

Umm, dude, I don't think that bolt action rifles could manage 600+ rounds a minute. We see instances in the boarding of the Tantive IV where a Trooper manages to squeeze off two shots in two frames, and others in similar rapidity. E-11's also have a full on auto fire feature, its just not used unless one needs suppressive fire, just like in real life. This cuts down on ammo expenditure, and increases accuracy.