A Third Party for Bible Whackies?

[DPDarkPrimus]

Well great. With his track record of God-given missions, Bush is going to be undoing what little progress has been made in the past two decades.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Yeah, but I'm fairly certain there isn't a single deliberate act that Bush has not claimed to have done during his presidency to be from divine inspiration. That may also include inadvertent acts, such as choking on a pretzel and pulling on a door you're supposed to push on.

[Terralthra]

I didn't say that he didn't do nothing. I'm just saying that what he did do isn't exactly road to Gilead stuff, but I was thinking more about abortion and gay marriage, both of which he didn't really do much to get rid of. But true, I didn't think about the science board part, but as far as ID goes I'm not sure he's the main cause of it, and I didn't consider his anti-global warming stuff because that's not necessarily a religious thing. It's more of a conservative idiocy thing. And good point about the Supreme Court, I didn't consider that as much. Though I see them more as big business champions than moralists- it's not as if they've attacked Roe v. Wade lately, have they?

For examples of the evangelical agenda in the Bush administration, one need look no further than the FDA's official position on the morning after pill (RU 486, et al.) and the HPV vaccine.

[Darth Wong]

The guy has filled the Justice Department with fucking fundies who graduated from Bible colleges! How much more fundie can you get? The only reason that he hasn't done more is the fact that despite his best efforts, he still can't simply rule by personal edict. He still has to deal with the other branches of government.

[Battlehymn Republic]

I apologize. I was thinking about the Supreme Court, not the Justice Department. I hadn't been following about them, aside from all the corruption scandals. I didn't know they were fundies as well.

[Glocksman]

I'm right wing, but I don't consider myself a 'bible whacko', though I do know a few of them.

To be honest, what I'm looking for in a candidate/party platform is something along these lines:

1. Get out of Iraq.
We were misled into the war with bad intelligence (I'm being charitable towards GWB here ), and now it's time to cut our losses and leave.

2. National health care.
I'm not sure what form it should take, but I want to see a national health care scheme.

3. Fiscal Discipline.
Over the last 30 years, neither party has proven itself really serious about it.
If tax increases are necessary to balance the budget, then goddamn it, do so.
At the same time, if we have to cut spending on bullshit such as the Lawrence Welk Museum and Ted Stevens' famous 'Bridge to Nowhere', then we need to do it as well.

4. Immigration.
It's time we started enforcing the borders again, and the best means to do so is to dry up the jobs that attract illegals to begin with. Start throwing businesspeople who hire illegals in jail, and you'll see the job magnet start to demagnetize.

5. Gun Rights.
I've discussed this enough over the years that I shouldn't have to explain why.

6. Gay Rights.
No one should be confronted with losing a job based on sexuality.
Perhaps the only exception I'd make would be if the employer was a religious organization whose tenets proscribed homosexuality, but even then it'd depend upon how the exception policy was implemented.

7. Trade.
There's a balance to be struck between total protectionism and exporting your entire manufacturing base to low wage, no environmental protection law countries. We need to find that balance.



There's more, but as most of you can see, I can't be pigeonholed into the traditional 'liberal' and 'conservative' categories.
That said, the most attractive current candidate is Bill Richardson.

[Ryan Thunder]

The Constitution Party, aside from their socially conservative positions, has a number of things in their platform that made me scratch my head and go "Huh?"

-They're very, very isolationist, and they view America's role in any international organizations as a sign of the New World Order. (Oddly, they don't seem to welcome that particular sign of Armageddon the way many fundies seem to be embracing the "end times" these days.)

If I may interject here; intelligent Christians (you know, the ones that actually read their Bibles and what not) don't even think about the End Times, aside from hoping they come later rather than sooner. Why? Because for one thing, it is explicitly stated that you cannot predict when they will begin. For another, the coming of the End Times will remove us from the world and destroy our ability to witness to those left behind. Kinda hard to help the world when you aren't on the same uh... plane?

[/rambling]

[Darth Wong]

If I may interject here; intelligent Christians (you know, the ones that actually read their Bibles and what not) don't even think about the End Times, aside from hoping they come later rather than sooner.

In my experience, intelligent Christians actually don't take the Bible too seriously. You've got it ass-backwards: the ones who read it front to back and take it very seriously are the nutcases.

Why? Because for one thing, it is explicitly stated that you cannot predict when they will begin. For another, the coming of the End Times will remove us from the world and destroy our ability to witness to those left behind. Kinda hard to help the world when you aren't on the same uh... plane?

If you take it seriously enough to believe that the End Times will actually happen as written, you're one of the stupid Christians, not one of the intelligent ones.

[Starglider]

In my experience, intelligent Christians actually don't take the Bible too seriously.

It's a shame they don't extrapolate the trend of 'increasing intelligence, less attention paid to ancient myths/fables/tribal laws' to its logical conclusion.

[General Zod]

In my experience, intelligent Christians actually don't take the Bible too seriously.

It's a shame they don't extrapolate the trend of 'increasing intelligence, less attention paid to ancient myths/fables/tribal laws' to its logical conclusion.

If they increased their intelligence too much they'd have to wind up giving up their religion. So unfortunately they can only take it so far.

[Metatwaddle]

If I may interject here; intelligent Christians (you know, the ones that actually read their Bibles and what not) don't even think about the End Times, aside from hoping they come later rather than sooner. Why? Because for one thing, it is explicitly stated that you cannot predict when they will begin. For another, the coming of the End Times will remove us from the world and destroy our ability to witness to those left behind. Kinda hard to help the world when you aren't on the same uh... plane?

[/rambling]

Sounds nice, but where is it explicitly stated that you can never predict the end times? I thought there were some references in Revelation to "Behold, I come quickly" and "shortly come to pass" and stuff like that, which doesn't actually tell you very much, but it doesn't explicitly state that you can never know when the end times will be. And in the gospels, things are worse: Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 all seem to say that before some of Jesus's audience died, Jesus would come back. The KJV puts it as various permutations of "some will not have tasted of death before they see the kingdom of God". Of course, you could be talking about them just going to heaven, but I don't think that makes a lot of sense, because that would imply that these people would see heaven before they died, rather than after.

But if you can point me to the verse you have in mind, that would be great, because it would allow me to conclude that the Bible is inconclusive and contradictory on the matter, which is always nice.

[Darth Wong]

Most likely his minister just told him that, and he took it on faith. Most Christians who claim to read the Bible actually don't, and they just let their ministers interpret it for them. That's why so many Biblical arguments end with "Why don't you come talk to my youth pastor, he's much more knowledgeable than me about this sort of thing".

[Metatwaddle]

Most likely his minister just told him that, and he took it on faith. Most Christians who claim to read the Bible actually don't, and they just let their ministers interpret it for them. That's why so many Biblical arguments end with "Why don't you come talk to my youth pastor, he's much more knowledgeable than me about this sort of thing".

Unfortunately for them, normal people don't want to talk to youth pastors. I think they have seminary courses with names like "GOD 101: Basic Youth Pastoring. How to Try Way Too Hard to Talk Like a Teenager" and maybe, later on, "GOD 305: Advanced Youth Pastoring. Using the Word 'Awesome' to Describe God Six Times In One Sentence".

[fgalkin2]

And John McCain is still out there, desperately trying to simultaneously appeal to all of these groups at once, even as they fight each other.

I still cannot fathom how McCain, with his background, managed to turn into the ultimate political whore.

I guess it's true that power corrupts, because, clearly, he would do and say anything just to get elected.

And to think that I once respected the man.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Rogue 9]

Yeah, I wrote in McCain in 2004, and now I don't know what the hell I was thinking. I certainly won't make that mistake again.

As for a third party for fundies, the Constitution Party already serves admirably in that role. I just hope there isn't a mass bolt to them in the Deep South; I shudder to think what would happen if they actually managed to get seats in Congress.

[Darth Holbytlan]

It's a shame they don't extrapolate the trend of 'increasing intelligence, less attention paid to ancient myths/fables/tribal laws' to its logical conclusion.

Why do you think they demonize "ivory-tower" intellectuals? It's not like it is in their interest to treat intelligence as a good thing.

[Ryan Thunder]

It's a shame they don't extrapolate the trend of 'increasing intelligence, less attention paid to ancient myths/fables/tribal laws' to its logical conclusion.

Why do you think they demonize "ivory-tower" intellectuals? It's not like it is in their interest to treat intelligence as a good thing.

Huh? I don't.

All I got is faith, and I don't mind admitting it. I'm not one of those retards that thinks he can prove that God exists...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why? Because for one thing, it is explicitly stated that you cannot predict when they will begin. For another, the coming of the End Times will remove us from the world and destroy our ability to witness to those left behind. Kinda hard to help the world when you aren't on the same uh... plane?

If you take it seriously enough to believe that the End Times will actually happen as written, you're one of the stupid Christians, not one of the intelligent ones.

This is aside from the fact that Ryan here believes in rapture, or dispensationalism. Which is the same claptrap as those terrible Left Behind novels. And rapture is...not found in the Bible.

[Ryan Thunder]

Why? Because for one thing, it is explicitly stated that you cannot predict when they will begin. For another, the coming of the End Times will remove us from the world and destroy our ability to witness to those left behind. Kinda hard to help the world when you aren't on the same uh... plane?

If you take it seriously enough to believe that the End Times will actually happen as written, you're one of the stupid Christians, not one of the intelligent ones.

This is aside from the fact that Ryan here believes in rapture, or dispensationalism. Which is the same claptrap as those terrible Left Behind novels. And rapture is...not found in the Bible.

Bah. I'll admit I didn't look that closely at that particular part.

Still; I figure that actively trying to bring about the end of the world is rather nutty...

[Darth Holbytlan]

Ryan Thunder
I wasn't specifically referring to you.

[Zeond]

Don't forget the Creator's Rights party founded by Neal "Mule Fucker" Horsley. These people are even crazier than the constitution party.

Link not for those faint of heart
++http://www.tcrp.us/

God's Plan for Government Defined

According to the Declaration of Independence, God, The Creator, "endowed all men with certain unalienable Rights." Then the Declaration of Independence defined God's plan for government thusly: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

The Purpose of The Creator's Rights Party

The purpose of The Creator's Rights party is to implement God's plan for government, as defined above, in these presently united States of America. Our motto, "Organizing To Fight For The Creator's Rights" succinctly explains our purpose as a political party.

The Goal of The Creator's Rights Party

Restoring God's plan for government, as defined above, to its rightful place of authority in this nation is the goal of The Creator's Rights Party.

<snip>

EVIDENCE PROVING THE PRESENT POLITICAL STRUCTURE HAS VIOLATED GOD'S PLAN FOR GOVERNMENT

*Prayer To God Outlawed In Public Schools

*Courts Abandon idea of God in Legal Reasoning Process

*Supreme Courts Overrule Will of God in Legalized Abortion

*Doctors Ignore God and Become Agents of Death

*Police and Military Forces Become Instruments of Tyranny By Enforcing Tyrannical "Laws"

*Homosexuals Introduce Perverted Image of God by Claiming God Created Them to Be Homosexuals

Some choice quotes from the strategy page

THE MAJORITY IS THE PROBLEM

The average American—the majority—has proven to be the root of the problem that results in The Creator’s Rights being trampled in the United States of America. No State presently has a majority willing to restore The Creator to His rightful place of authority. Even when government officials like Judge Roy Moore arise to attempt to restore The Creator to His rightful place, the majority fails to support him and the attempt is defeated. Let us no longer pander to the majority.

Expect A Fight

That’s right: or die trying. For the members of The Creator’s Rights Party the line has been drawn in the sand and we have crossed over that line and found our vehicle for restoring God’s plan for government to its rightful place of authority in the USA.

The last thirty years should make it clear that we will not abolish legalized abortion without a terrible price being paid. A huge down payment on that price has already been paid by millions of babies who were kept out of sight while their bodies were torn apart like prey under the claws of a lion. Now it is our time to pay our part of the price.

We must expect opposition like none we have ever experienced because the huge majority of people in this nation have invested themselves into legalized abortion. Even those who say they are opposed to legalized abortion have tolerated it for three decades. That means they have invested themselves in the idea that people who tolerate legalized abortion are somehow all right with God and not really evil people at all.

That is a lie.

People who tolerate legalized abortion are just as much murderers as the abortionist who rips the baby apart and the mother and father and grandmother and grandfather who offer their babies to be slaughtered as human sacrifice.

Expect all the people who have invested themselves in legalized abortion to fight you just like Planned Parenthood will fight you.

At the core of our present difficulties is the fact that five people on the Supreme Court have been given the power (not the right) to define law for all of us. And the only way to overrule their decision is a Constitutional Amendment (which requires a huge majority of support throughout the nation) or secession. The moral of the story of the last twenty years is this: those five people rule regardless of who is President or regardless of who is in majority in the legislative branch of government. Finding a way to overrule the Supreme Court is the search we are truly involved in. Anybody who’s actually in touch with the facts knows this.

Implementing The Strategy

How would all this work?

Starting where you are, you begin to tell people about the real prospect of secession in the United States of America. That’s how a secession movement begins. In the beginning that’s all there is to it: just an evergrowing group of people who are no longer afraid to tell everyone that they know that they cannot abide with the evil they see around them any longer; that as far as they are concerned the social contract is broken and as soon as God gives them enough people to make it happen, they’re going to find a new government that will implement God’s plan for government instead of Satan’s.

I believe God has equipped tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, who would get on the band wagon if they saw a real chance to change things. I further believe that, if sufficient numbers are not there today, that if the leaders of God’s people will model this strategy, then God will motivate sufficient numbers to follow. I’ll expain why in a minute. But first understand exactly why the threat of secession can arrest the desecration.

The threat of secession, carried out within a State whose citizens are willing to go the extra mile, is a thing that can be created with the resources at hand today. There are many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of God’s people who are literally sick to death of the continuing desecration of His authority and their collaboration with this desecration. Their determination, when properly focused, can force—that’s right, I said FORCE— every citizen in this nation to choose between perpetuating legalized abortion or the destruction of the union in these presently united States of America and the immeasurable slaughter that will attend such destruction.

Secession worked real well for the South didn't it?
Their website makes my eyes bleed.

[Mayabird]

Horsley advocates the capture of nuclear weapons in order to force secession, because if a bunch of hick Georgians like himself got themselves some nukes and threatened to use them on everybody else, they'd be forced to allow the state to secede and become its own fundamentalist dystopia. Or so goes his thinking (and he does mention Georgia a lot). There are probably a few people who keep an eye on him, just in case he actually does get a power base and tries something. Georgia's bad enough without radioactive craters where some idiots blew themselves up.

[Ryan Thunder]

Ryan Thunder
I wasn't specifically referring to you.

Perhaps not, but you did mention my name. Unless you referring to another Ryan...

Should that be the case; my bad.

[Darth Holbytlan]

Um, no I didn't. Seriously, look at my post. Not a single "Ryan" anywhere.

[Ryan Thunder]

Oh shit... I had you mixed up with Primus. Sorry.