Girl expelled for possession of a butter knife

[Starglider]

All these zero-tolerance rules exist because of the decades-long assault upon government by conservatives and so-called "libertarians".

I think US liability culture, coupled with the media circus that dramatises every teenage killing spree, is a lot more of a problem than 'libertarians'. I haven't seen any particular tendency for them to try and micromanage government employees - of course what they actually want is for all schools to be privatised and for 'consumer (parent) choice' to determine the policies at each one.

[Darth Wong]

All these zero-tolerance rules exist because of the decades-long assault upon government by conservatives and so-called "libertarians".

I think US liability culture, coupled with the media circus that dramatises every teenage killing spree, is a lot more of a problem than 'libertarians'.

And what about drugs? Bullying? Mandatory-sentencing laws? All of these laws share one thing in common: they represent an attempt to legislate away the ability of individual government professionals to make their own decisions.

I haven't seen any particular tendency for them to try and micromanage government employees - of course what they actually want is for all schools to be privatised and for 'consumer (parent) choice' to determine the policies at each one.

How is it not micromanagement to pass laws forcing judges and principals to make decisions they would not otherwise make?

[Starglider]

And what about drugs? Bullying? Mandatory-sentencing laws? All of these laws share one thing in common: they represent an attempt to legislate away the ability of individual government professionals to make their own decisions. How is it not micromanagement to pass laws forcing judges and principals to make decisions they would not otherwise make?

I may be wrong here as I don't have any direct exposure to US culture; I just read a relatively small amount of stuff on the web and hear things second hand from UK news sources. But the impression I get is that the restriction of decision-making freedom is a side effect rather than an express intent. The intent is to 'look tough' and 'zero tolerance' appeals to the moronic type of voter that imagines either perfect enforcement or a reign of fear (of harsh punnishment) will solve the perceived problem. I haven't noticed much if any 'we must force public servants to act because they're incapable of making decisions' sentiment.

[Darth Wong]

I may be wrong here as I don't have any direct exposure to US culture; I just read a relatively small amount of stuff on the web and hear things second hand from UK news sources. But the impression I get is that the restriction of decision-making freedom is a side effect rather than an express intent. The intent is to 'look tough' and 'zero tolerance' appeals to the moronic type of voter that imagines either perfect enforcement or a reign of fear (of harsh punnishment) will solve the perceived problem. I haven't noticed much if any 'we must force public servants to act because they're incapable of making decisions' sentiment.

I have. Specifically with respect to judges, there is a virtual war on their independence.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The populists have been upset for half-a-century that judges cannot be bent to the will of their mob. Basically, constitutional case law giving the U.S. a modern standard of civil liberties and freedom from bigotry or religious law has created a massive backlash by the ignorant retrograde section of the populace. Some Americans delude that the last 40 years is worse than the previous 40, and those whose lot has declined think it has to do with school prayer and "abortion on demand" than, I dunno, the rich becoming MUCH richer at the expense of the working class by manipulating trade law and regulations to benefit their bottom-line at the majority-ownership of the conglomerates.

The true genius of American conservatism was to get poor working whites to vote on the basis of anger for blacks' advancement and civil rights as opposed to their own economic interest. From there they've simply desperately drudged up boogeyman after boogeyman to keep the focus on irrelevent "values issues" while the same poor whites keep getting trashed by the very rich who really operate the Establishment.

[mjn6172]

You know, we had a very similar situation come up at the school I was working at last year (a kid brought a butter knife in with his lunch and some teacher overreacted and brought him to the principal). After some . . . strong discussion with the district office, my principal was ordered to suspend the student and set up an expulsion meeting due to the moronic zero-tolerance policy. We were able to set the meeting up for two days later, which was much faster than the usual 10-15 days later. Fortunately the Assistant Superintendant (who presides over all expulsion meetings and has the ultimate say on them) had a brain and was able to stop the expulsion and get the student back in school for the next day.

I still remember how pissed my boss was at the county office over being forced to suspend the student. At least we were able to bring that one back, but this is just another case indicating how useless these zero-tolerence policies are.

[Eris]

I may be wrong here as I don't have any direct exposure to US culture; I just read a relatively small amount of stuff on the web and hear things second hand from UK news sources. But the impression I get is that the restriction of decision-making freedom is a side effect rather than an express intent. The intent is to 'look tough' and 'zero tolerance' appeals to the moronic type of voter that imagines either perfect enforcement or a reign of fear (of harsh punnishment) will solve the perceived problem. I haven't noticed much if any 'we must force public servants to act because they're incapable of making decisions' sentiment.

I have. Specifically with respect to judges, there is a virtual war on their independence.

To elaborate, the entire movement against "judicial activism" and "legislating from the bench" are some of the higher profiles assaults on government making decisions. It's dressed up in pretty language to make it look like it's just a case of sticking to Constitutional checks and balances (at least it is here in the US) and is trying to erode the power of the judiciary until all it can do is "interpret the law," that is, deliberate upon innocence and then assign the legally mandated minimum punishment for the crime in question. (Mandated minimum sentences are another good example of what's going on, actually.)

Of course, when it comes to the executive branch making decisions, they take a different view, but hypocrisy has come to be expected at this point.

I hadn't actually thought of zero-tolerance policies as explicit examples of this behaviour in other contexts, but it does certainly fit the MO, right down to an analogue of the mandated minimum sentences.

[Spin Echo]

You know, we had a very similar situation come up at the school I was working at last year (a kid brought a butter knife in with his lunch and some teacher overreacted and brought him to the principal). After some . . . strong discussion with the district office, my principal was ordered to suspend the student and set up an expulsion meeting due to the moronic zero-tolerance policy. We were able to set the meeting up for two days later, which was much faster than the usual 10-15 days later. Fortunately the Assistant Superintendant (who presides over all expulsion meetings and has the ultimate say on them) had a brain and was able to stop the expulsion and get the student back in school for the next day.

Question. Do schools still have silverware in the cafeterias, or is it all just plastic knives and forks? What about biology classes. Do they do dissections? I'm trying to figure out how'd manage that without a scalpel.

[CJvR]

Wow. Im lucky Im not in school anymore. The average pencil is a hell of a lot more dangerous than a butterknife. Hell I used to have a ruler that was a genuine killing weapon, a solid aluminium profile half a meter long...

[Adrian Laguna]

Question. Do schools still have silverware in the cafeterias, or is it all just plastic knives and forks? What about biology classes. Do they do dissections? I'm trying to figure out how'd manage that without a scalpel.

Depends on the school, it also depends on whether the county/district has zero tolerance in effect or not.

My High School had plastic sporks (spoon + fork) or plastic forks available as cutlery. However, I know I've seen teachers using actual silverware with their lunches. Given the general "feel" of the place, I can't help but think that a student using a fork and knife (not a steak knife though) to eat a home-packed lunch wouldn't get a reaction.

In the science labs, we did use scalpels. I dissected a worm, a cray fish, a frog, and a sheep's brain.

[Mayabird]

I'm somewhat concerned about the girl, talking about how she made a stupid decision about bringing a butter knife to school. She made a mistake sure, but this really really silly. I find myself very hard pressed to lay any blame on her given the magnitude of unreasonableness stacked up against her.

It seemed to me that she was just saying the standard phrase of the moment for apologizing. All the famous people who are caught doing something illegal/wrong/stupid say something like that and she probably has a lawyer or a parent who told her to say that exact same sort of thing.

[chitoryu12]

Even sillier, my 8th grade tech class alone gave me access to power saws and penknives on a regular basis, yet they treated it as perfectly normal behavior. While people are getting expelled over butter knives, 13-year-olds weren't even given warnings before slicing boards in half and smoothing them on a sanding belt to make a shelf.

[mjn6172]

You know, we had a very similar situation come up at the school I was working at last year (a kid brought a butter knife in with his lunch and some teacher overreacted and brought him to the principal). After some . . . strong discussion with the district office, my principal was ordered to suspend the student and set up an expulsion meeting due to the moronic zero-tolerance policy. We were able to set the meeting up for two days later, which was much faster than the usual 10-15 days later. Fortunately the Assistant Superintendant (who presides over all expulsion meetings and has the ultimate say on them) had a brain and was able to stop the expulsion and get the student back in school for the next day.

Question. Do schools still have silverware in the cafeterias, or is it all just plastic knives and forks? What about biology classes. Do they do dissections? I'm trying to figure out how'd manage that without a scalpel.

The two schools I've worked at had all cheap plastic silverware in the cafeterias. I think this is true statewide for Florida, but it may be determined by the various school districts.

The biology classes at my old school were not allowed to perform Dissections. The only class that was allowed dissection was the Anatomy/Physiology class, and that teacher had to apply for special permission with the district and the students had to fill out a mass of permission slips/waivers before it was allowed. At my current school the standard Biology I classes don't perform dissections, but the more advanced classes (Dual Enrollment Biology, Marine Biology, Anatomy) do perform them.

[mjn6172]

Even sillier, my 8th grade tech class alone gave me access to power saws and penknives on a regular basis, yet they treated it as perfectly normal behavior. While people are getting expelled over butter knives, 13-year-olds weren't even given warnings before slicing boards in half and smoothing them on a sanding belt to make a shelf.

Those classes were taken out years ago here, I think around the time I graduated high school. Now our students have to take those classes at the local Tech school if that's what they want to do. To be fair, it generally works out better because only the students who are serious about learning skills like carpentry or welding will go, and the classes they take there count towards professional certification (and are free if they're still in High School.)

[Alyrium Denryle]

And what about drugs? Bullying? Mandatory-sentencing laws? All of these laws share one thing in common: they represent an attempt to legislate away the ability of individual government professionals to make their own decisions.

True. But it does not follow necessarily that the reasons for this problem are the conservative assault on government. What is the problem is the macho "get tough" attitude our politicians have toward anything that causes public fear. In the arguments they use, they dont ever say that the teachers are incompetent because they are government officials. What they say is that "something needs to be done, and I will get tough on X if you elect me" the only way they can do that is to make sentencing harsher, or impose mandatory sentences, or mandatory expulsion, or tighten what the definition of crime IS so they can arrest (or expel) more people.

They all say these things, so it only makes sense that they get into a self congratulatory circle-jerk when they pass the legislation.

Of course, what I find the most disgusting is that a student can get sexually assaulted in public and the perp will only be suspended for three days... but bring a butter knife to school....