Tanks vs. Mechs: 1941 Force Sub Part 3

[SylasGaunt]

Well that answers the question of whether or not we saw infantry take out a zoid in Chaotic Century (my example being from Zero/New Century)

[Darth Wong]

Sylas, you are STILL trying to disprove observations with speculation. You don't seem to understand how this works: you can't disprove the AT-AT's weight by speculating about its name. You can't disprove the huge disparity in effects between asteroids and Obi-Wan's ship by speculating about how shields might work. What part of this are you too dense to understand?

And as for running, even if your smaller figures are correct, you STILL need several strides per second to make the rated speeds, so you STILL have to address the point rather than evading it.

And regarding the feeble-armour statement: live with it. If the thing is 70 feet tall and just 200 tons total, it's got almost no armour. Unless Zoids have shield technology, it's got to ward off anti-tank weapons with featherweight plates, which it's not going to do.

And finally, as for infantry, if an infantry weapon can take down a zoid as you say, then you agree that you don't need monster weapons to take them down. Thank you.

[Darth Wong]

I really have no idea what's going on here, but the numbers given are the official ones from TOmy, the company that made them. While not all the Zoids have been shown moving at top speeds, the ones that have in the animes, which I've already listed above, do back up their states stats.

You've seen them doing 5 to 10 strides PER SECOND?

[SylasGaunt]

Sylas, you are STILL trying to disprove observations with speculation. You don't seem to understand how this works: you can't disprove the AT-AT's weight by speculating about its name. You can't disprove the huge disparity in effects between asteroids and Obi-Wan's ship by speculating about how shields might work. What part of this are you too dense to understand?

Oh so shields can't be knocked down now?

As for the AT-AT's name, no military as far as I know gives something a designation for a role it isn't used in.

And as for running, even if your smaller figures are correct, you STILL need several strides per second to make the rated speeds, so you STILL have to address the point rather than evading it.

I believe SAMAS pointed out at least one example of that.

And regarding the feeble-armour statement: live with it. If the thing is 70 feet tall and just 200 tons total, it's got almost no armour. Unless Zoids have shield technology, it's got to ward off anti-tank weapons with featherweight plates, which it's not going to do.

Now kindly back that up with something. These are not built with modern day armor or even materials from the same damn planet. If the zoids were made out of modern armor materials at their stated weights then yes they wouldn't be able to ward off hits from anything, however I've already pointed out examples where their armor takes such hits like the Ultrasaurus taking a hit from a beam weapon we see nuke an entire city and not get much more than a limp. In Zoids Zero we've got the Judge Capsule's which are repeatedly dropped from orbit and impact the ground without suffering any visible damage whatsoever.

We've seen materials that to my knowledge do not exist on Earth appear in the zoids series (Planecite was the name I believe).

And some zoids do have shield technology.

And finally, as for infantry, if an infantry weapon can take down a zoid as you say, then you agree that you don't need monster weapons to take them down. Thank you.

Infantry weapons designed and built with them in mind. And even then the only kills we have are on light zoids.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

Ok I have to chime in here... I may be something of a fan of the mecha concept myself, but I simply cannot see how any such vehicle massing more than about 10 tonnes could possibly be viable in a real-world environment barring unforseen technological developments or the need for something to fit highly specialized roles.

I especially have to side with the esteemed Wong God concerning the speeds these things are supposed to be capable of -- cars have trouble getting safely over about 120kph, and that is on smooth, consistent surfaces... not counting specialty vehicles specifically designed for speed above all else. want to know the principal reason for this? it's really simple... it's a little thing called ATMOSPHERIC DRAG!!! Once a vehicle with any Cd over about .1 gets above 100kph, drag becomes a major burden. Forget having to do 19 stride cycles per second -- sorry Mike, but a single step doesnt really count... all the legs have to take a step to make a cycle -- you have to be able to meet or overcome your drag penalty at the target speed before you can even think about those strides! Sorry to all the fanboys out there, but zoids are nothing but giant air dams with Cd's so high that speeds above 100kph are effectively impossible.

[SylasGaunt]

I suppose now would be a bad time to point out the Liger Zero Jaeger creating something similar to a sonic boom..

[Shaka[Zulu]]

I doubt it would be a boom... more like the pressure wave you get when a tractor-trailer passes you (standing still) doing 60-90mph. there is NO WAY any zoid could create a mach cone.

[Hotfoot]

I suppose now would be a bad time to point out the Liger Zero Jaeger creating something similar to a sonic boom..

Something similar to a sonic boom? You mean it flies apart when forced to run at absurd speeds?

Seriously though, in addition to the problems of drag, there's the matter of propulsion. Given the mass of the mech, the necessary speed of the legs to propel it to the stated speed, the amount of time each leg would be in contact with the ground to propel the mech, well...it gets ugly real fast. When the entire mass of the mech needs to be supported on the rear legs (and not spread out on the entire base of the "feet", if they do move like animals, anyway, so it's only a fraction of the rear feet supporting the entire mass of the mech) to launch the mech forward in a run (unlike the AT-AT, which constantly uses most, if not all of each foot with each step, and has never been shown to go into a run, trot, gallop, or what have you). The end result being that to propel the mech forward at these rates, you've got to battle the ground's stability as well. Assuming that the prerequisite supermecha materials have been developed to keep the mech together and functional (through magic space mice, or what have you), let's figure out how much force would have to be exerted on the ground to propel these mechs to their stated speeds. Now, Shaka[Zulu] can probably come up with some reasonable drag values for one of those mechs, we already have their stated maximum speeds and weights, approximate scaling, and knowledge that they move like real animals would.



Now, going by (very) rough estimates based on the Cheetah model, and the stated states for it, I would place the area of the feet on the ground at about 3 square meters per foot, and two feet in contact with the ground during the leap. That's 65 tons (let's assume that they meant metric tons, not standard tons, for the time being) pressing down on a whopping 6 square meters. But wait, we're trying to run at 325 kph, too! But let's be gentle, and assume that the cheetah is only warming up for its incredible speed run. Now, if my calcs are correct, that gives it roughly 106,233 pascals just trying support 65 metric tons on 6 square meters, without trying to apply any addition force to accelerate or maintain a speed of 325 kph).

Now, the faster the mech can accelerate, the more force is required. Now, if these mechs do move just like the animals they are based on, then either the Cheetah mech hits top speed (325 kph) in roughly two seconds, or can hit roughly 100kph in two seconds. Either way, we're talking about some serious force being exerted through those hind legs to the ground in a very short period of time. Now, attempting to do anything more complex for the moment is going to make my head explode, but suffice to say that I get the definate impression that normal ground would not be able to support that sort of pressure.

Then we have that T-Rex "Geno Breaker" which is only a two-legged design, comes in at 137.5 tons (overtwice the mass of the cheetah) and is even faster at 345 kph? This is getting very silly, very quickly, and this is even assuming the mech can move using its own power and can itself withstand the forces at work. What substance could possibly support these monstrosities as they run along and accelerate with these absurd values?

[Shaka[Zulu]]

oops... I made a typo there... IN my first post above I meant to say 120mph, which is 200kph. however my point still stands, as that speed is rare for vehicles that are not performance oriented (mustangs, vettes etc). Most cars tend to max out (ie are power/drag limited) to about 100mph. even my now dead '92 typhoon was ultimately drag-limited to about 135mph...

[SAMAS]

I really have no idea what's going on here, but the numbers given are the official ones from TOmy, the company that made them. While not all the Zoids have been shown moving at top speeds, the ones that have in the animes, which I've already listed above, do back up their states stats.

You've seen them doing 5 to 10 strides PER SECOND?

New Century Zero Episode 5 -- High Speed Battle: Transforming into Zero Jager. The highlight of the episode is a duel between a Lightning Saix(Max. Speed (open range): 325km/h) and a Liger Zero Jaeger{Max. Speed (open range): 330 km/h). At one point, both Zoids put on a burst of maximum speed. Both times, they left the screen quickly, but took about two steps in a tenth of a second before going.

[Stormbringer]

I really have no idea what's going on here, but the numbers given are the official ones from TOmy, the company that made them. While not all the Zoids have been shown moving at top speeds, the ones that have in the animes, which I've already listed above, do back up their states stats.

You've seen them doing 5 to 10 strides PER SECOND?

New Century Zero Episode 5 -- High Speed Battle: Transforming into Zero Jager. The highlight of the episode is a duel between a Lightning Saix(Max. Speed (open range): 325km/h) and a Liger Zero Jaeger{Max. Speed (open range): 330 km/h). At one point, both Zoids put on a burst of maximum speed. Both times, they left the screen quickly, but took about two steps in a tenth of a second before going.

Care to provide some proof of your claims?

[SAMAS]

I suppose now would be a bad time to point out the Liger Zero Jaeger creating something similar to a sonic boom..

Something similar to a sonic boom? You mean it flies apart when forced to run at absurd speeds?

Seriously though, in addition to the problems of drag, there's the matter of propulsion. Given the mass of the mech, the necessary speed of the legs to propel it to the stated speed, the amount of time each leg would be in contact with the ground to propel the mech, well...it gets ugly real fast. When the entire mass of the mech needs to be supported on the rear legs (and not spread out on the entire base of the "feet", if they do move like animals, anyway, so it's only a fraction of the rear feet supporting the entire mass of the mech) to launch the mech forward in a run (unlike the AT-AT, which constantly uses most, if not all of each foot with each step, and has never been shown to go into a run, trot, gallop, or what have you). The end result being that to propel the mech forward at these rates, you've got to battle the ground's stability as well. Assuming that the prerequisite supermecha materials have been developed to keep the mech together and functional (through magic space mice, or what have you), let's figure out how much force would have to be exerted on the ground to propel these mechs to their stated speeds. Now, Shaka[Zulu] can probably come up with some reasonable drag values for one of those mechs, we already have their stated maximum speeds and weights, approximate scaling, and knowledge that they move like real animals would.

Now, going by (very) rough estimates based on the Cheetah model, and the stated states for it, I would place the area of the feet on the ground at about 3 square meters per foot, and two feet in contact with the ground during the leap. That's 65 tons (let's assume that they meant metric tons, not standard tons, for the time being) pressing down on a whopping 6 square meters. But wait, we're trying to run at 325 kph, too! But let's be gentle, and assume that the cheetah is only warming up for its incredible speed run. Now, if my calcs are correct, that gives it roughly 106,233 pascals just trying support 65 metric tons on 6 square meters, without trying to apply any addition force to accelerate or maintain a speed of 325 kph).

Now, the faster the mech can accelerate, the more force is required. Now, if these mechs do move just like the animals they are based on, then either the Cheetah mech hits top speed (325 kph) in roughly two seconds, or can hit roughly 100kph in two seconds. Either way, we're talking about some serious force being exerted through those hind legs to the ground in a very short period of time. Now, attempting to do anything more complex for the moment is going to make my head explode, but suffice to say that I get the definate impression that normal ground would not be able to support that sort of pressure.

Actually, I think it might accellerate faster than that.


http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... sc1497.jpg

That's a scene of a Lightning Saix putting on a burst of speed to avoid an attack. This is like half a second before he leaves the screen. If I remember right, this secne was done in slow motion right up to this point, where the Lightning Saix does a virtual disappearing act.

But I agree. I don't think they're physically possible. But to use them in a debate, it has to be a given that they are capable of the stuff they are shown doing.

Then we have that T-Rex "Geno Breaker" which is only a two-legged design, comes in at 137.5 tons (overtwice the mass of the cheetah) and is even faster at 345 kph?

Well, the Geno Saurer/Breaker don't count, as they use hover engines to move that fast.


http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... dsc258.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... dsc417.jpg

This is getting very silly, very quickly, and this is even assuming the mech can move using its own power and can itself withstand the forces at work. What substance could possibly support these monstrosities as they run along and accelerate with these absurd values?

I dunno, but they have it.

[SAMAS]

You've seen them doing 5 to 10 strides PER SECOND?

New Century Zero Episode 5 -- High Speed Battle: Transforming into Zero Jager. The highlight of the episode is a duel between a Lightning Saix(Max. Speed (open range): 325km/h) and a Liger Zero Jaeger{Max. Speed (open range): 330 km/h). At one point, both Zoids put on a burst of maximum speed. Both times, they left the screen quickly, but took about two steps in a tenth of a second before going.

Care to provide some proof of your claims?

Me? No. I'm presently too broke the buy the DVD right now, and the episode won't come on TV for another week on so.

However, Sylas should have the episode in question(Hint: it's the one I mentioned by both name and subtitle above).

But if I can find a pic, or even a clip of it, I'll show you.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I dunno, when I think of these behemoths doing at least 5 strides a second the Benny Hill theme comes into my head and hilarity ensues.

But sonic boom?! Perhaps if it had wheels and a Saturn V rocket handy, but if the other Zoids do barely a coulpe of hundred klicks/hour, how does one do at least Mach 1 and get away with it? Would it not be more effective to simply make it an aerial vehicle, like a gunship or something?

[Sea Skimmer]

I dunno, when I think of these behemoths doing at least 5 strides a second the Benny Hill theme comes into my head and hilarity ensues.

But sonic boom?! Perhaps if it had wheels and a Saturn V rocket handy, but if the other Zoids do barely a coulpe of hundred klicks/hour, how does one do at least Mach 1 and get away with it? Would it not be more effective to simply make it an aerial vehicle, like a gunship or something?

Or a tank and attack heilcopter, which would cost less while being more efffective. Mecha are all about form over function.

[Darth Wong]

As stated repeatedly, the mechanical, aerodynamic, and ground-force/ground-friction problems associated with these 200km/h and 300 km/h bipeds are legion.

And frankly, I have doubts that these speeds are ever seen onscreen, no matter how unrealistically stupid the show is. 5-10 strides per second would be a blur. The goddamned mechs would look like Speedy Gonzales.

[Admiral Valdemar]

As stated repeatedly, the mechanical, aerodynamic, and ground-force/ground-friction problems associated with these 200km/h and 300 km/h bipeds are legion.

And frankly, I have doubts that these speeds are ever seen onscreen, no matter how unrealistically stupid the show is. 5-10 strides per second would be a blur. The goddamned mechs would look like Speedy Gonzales.

In which case we end up, once again, with defining what canonicity really means in the Zoids universe.

Does the data from that website overrule the onscreen footage or dialogue? Tha capabilities may be greatly reduced if going by onscreen, but it may also be somewhat more "realistic" for lack of a better term.

[Stormbringer]

New Century Zero Episode 5 -- High Speed Battle: Transforming into Zero Jager. The highlight of the episode is a duel between a Lightning Saix(Max. Speed (open range): 325km/h) and a Liger Zero Jaeger{Max. Speed (open range): 330 km/h). At one point, both Zoids put on a burst of maximum speed. Both times, they left the screen quickly, but took about two steps in a tenth of a second before going.

Care to provide some proof of your claims?

Me? No. I'm presently too broke the buy the DVD right now, and the episode won't come on TV for another week on so.

However, Sylas should have the episode in question(Hint: it's the one I mentioned by both name and subtitle above).

But if I can find a pic, or even a clip of it, I'll show you.

So in other words: no clips, no screen caps and no fucking proof.

[Majin Gojira]

As stated repeatedly, the mechanical, aerodynamic, and ground-force/ground-friction problems associated with these 200km/h and 300 km/h bipeds are legion.

And frankly, I have doubts that these speeds are ever seen onscreen, no matter how unrealistically stupid the show is. 5-10 strides per second would be a blur. The goddamned mechs would look like Speedy Gonzales.

Nervous and admitadly Ignorant question: Does the fact that many of them have very long stride lengths mean anything? (Don't hurt me!)

[Admiral Valdemar]

As stated repeatedly, the mechanical, aerodynamic, and ground-force/ground-friction problems associated with these 200km/h and 300 km/h bipeds are legion.

And frankly, I have doubts that these speeds are ever seen onscreen, no matter how unrealistically stupid the show is. 5-10 strides per second would be a blur. The goddamned mechs would look like Speedy Gonzales.

Nervous and admitadly Ignorant question: Does the fact that many of them have very long stride lengths mean anything? (Don't hurt me!)

Wong already pointed out that many of them even with such large stride lengths would still need to move those legs at several times the speed you'd see a normal mech move.

Either you have big long strides and less of them (WotW tripods) or loads of little but faster moving legs (uh, a mechanical millipede(!)).

[Stormbringer]

As stated repeatedly, the mechanical, aerodynamic, and ground-force/ground-friction problems associated with these 200km/h and 300 km/h bipeds are legion.

And frankly, I have doubts that these speeds are ever seen onscreen, no matter how unrealistically stupid the show is. 5-10 strides per second would be a blur. The goddamned mechs would look like Speedy Gonzales.

Nervous and admitadly Ignorant question: Does the fact that many of them have very long stride lengths mean anything? (Don't hurt me!)

He's taken that into account. He's measured the strides and that determines how many times the mech has to make that stride. The speeds that they need to make those strides is still higher than ever likely to be shown.

[Majin Gojira]

Ok. Thanks.

See, I told you it was a stupid question. (insert nervous smiley here)

[SAMAS]

Care to provide some proof of your claims?

Me? No. I'm presently too broke the buy the DVD right now, and the episode won't come on TV for another week on so.

However, Sylas should have the episode in question(Hint: it's the one I mentioned by both name and subtitle above).

But if I can find a pic, or even a clip of it, I'll show you.

So in other words: no clips, no screen caps and no fucking proof.

Not quite. Look at the first Screenshot I posted.

Here it is again.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... sc1497.jpg
Copy and paste to a new window to see it.

Like Wong said, the Lightning Saix would have to be a blur to be moving that fast. Well, the Saix is about one or two frames from going that fast, and it's already starting to blur.

[Majin Gojira]

With that out of the way, let me say this:

from what I have seen in the series, the Liger Zero (White Armor) tends to move at about 2 strides per second, which each stride about 1.5-2x its body length (exluding Tail). with the blue armor/jets, it moves faster, apparently releying on the jets for movement. it's stride length is about 3-5x its body length (no tail). It's been a few months since i've seen the show, so I might be a little inacurate.

[Majin Gojira]

Oh, and the stride rate was about the same.