Ghouliani on Torture

[Vympel]

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Anonymous Liberal for Glenn Greenwald: Giuliani on torture
Anonymous Liberal

Oct. 25, 2007 | In his book, former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin described his experience being tortured by sleep deprivation at the hands of the KGB:

In the head of the interrogated prisoner, a haze begins to form. His spirit is wearied to death, his legs are unsteady, and he has one sole desire: to sleep ... Anyone who has experienced this desire knows that not even hunger and thirst are comparable with it.

I came across prisoners who signed what they were ordered to sign, only to get what the interrogator promised them.

He did not promise them their liberty; he did not promise them food to sate themselves. He promised them -- if they signed -- uninterrupted sleep! And, having signed, there was nothing in the world that could move them to risk again such nights and such days.

Here's U.S. presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani, speaking at a town hall event in Iowa yesterday:

And I see, when the Democrats are talking about torture, they're not just talking about even this definition of waterboarding, which again, if you look at the liberal media and you look at the way they describe it, you could say it was torture and you shouldn't do it. But they talk about sleep deprivation. I mean, on that theory, I'm getting tortured running for president of the United States. That's plain silly. That's silly.

Apparently, this is what it's like on the campaign trail:

Mr. Bashmilah was subjected to severe sleep deprivation and shackling in painful positions. Excruciatingly loud music was played twenty-four hours per day, seven days per week. Guards deprived him of sleep, routinely waking him every half hour. Initially, the cell was pitch black, his hands were cuffed together, and his legs were shackled together, severely restricting his movement and causing him pain. Later, he was chained to a wall and the light in his cell was left on at all times, except for brief moments when the guards came to his cell ... Mr. Bashmilah's psychological torment was such that he used a piece of metal to slash his wrists in an attempt to bleed to death. He used his own blood to write "I am innocent" and "this is unjust" on the walls of his cell.

I wonder what Giuliani writes on the walls of his $4,000-a-night hotel rooms.

And given his outspoken belligerence regarding Iran, he must also find this pretty "silly" (from the State Department's official 2006 country report on Iran):

In recent years authorities have severely abused and tortured prisoners in a series of "unofficial" secret prisons and detention centers outside the national prison system. Common methods included prolonged solitary confinement with sensory deprivation ... long confinement in contorted positions ... threats of execution if individuals refused to confess ... sleep deprivation.

But these things can't be torture! We have memos saying they're just "enhanced interrogation techniques" fully consistent with U.S. and international law. Silly State Department.

Here's what Giuliani told the Iowa crowd about our preferred form of mock execution, waterboarding:

Questioner: "He [AG nominee Mukasey] said he didn't know if waterboarding is torture."

Giuliani: "Well, I'm not sure it is either. I'm not sure it is either. It depends on how it's done. It depends on the circumstances. It depends on who does it. I think the way it's been defined in the media, it shouldn't be done. The way in which they have described it, particularly in the liberal media. So I would say, if that's the description of it, then I can agree, that it shouldn't be done. But I have to see what the real description of it is. Because I've learned something being in public life as long as I have. And I hate to shock anybody with this, but the newspapers don't always describe it accurately."

You know we've come a long way as a country when the leading presidential candidate for the incumbent party suggests that perhaps one of the oldest, most iconic forms of torture known to man isn't torture at all, and we only think it is because we've been misled by our "liberal media." History no doubt also has a well-known liberal bias:

The first level of torture employed by the Spanish Inquisition was the "water cure." Water was poured into the accused's open mouth. The linen cloth was washed into the opening of the throat, preventing the accused from spitting the water back out. The overwhelming sensation of drowning forced the accused to swallow the water. The rules of torture as written by Torquemada, a man whom historians have compared to Hitler, stipulated that no more than eight liters of water could be used in a single session.

Perhaps the most revealing part of Giuliani's response was his comment that whether waterboarding is torture "depends on who does it." That pretty much sums up the prevailing right-wing view on this issue: It's not torture when we do it. It's American exceptionalism taken to an absurd and frightening extreme. It doesn't matter that we draft detailed reports every year chastising all other countries in the world who are known to engage in this activity. It doesn't matter that we've prosecuted people in the past for war crimes for engaging in this same activity. Somehow acts that we would all agree are torture when committed by other countries cease to be torture when they are authorized by the U.S. government (but only for us; it's still torture if others do it). If anyone thinks that the United States' standing in the world will improve if Giuliani becomes president, they're sadly mistaken.

-- Anonymous Liberal

It's a fucking bad dream.

[K. A. Pital]

Sleep deprivation is one of the most effective torture methods. It is well known that it leaves no trace on one's body and helps to form a Stockholm syndrome.

Of course, Ghoul is just showing his true colors here, nothing special.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its sad that Americans can't live up to standards of POW conduct afforded to fucking Nazis.

[Elfdart]

If they're so proud or torture and think it's such a good thing, why bother with things like sleep deprivation? If they have nothing to hide or be ashamed of, they should go straight to the hot poker up the ass.

The fact that they have to use weasel words to describe what they're doing gives the game away, doesn't it?

I've always known that the reason people torture is for the sadistic thrill they get out of doing it, and the Vital Information That Could Save Us All Maguffin is just a handy excuse. After watching The Ox-Bow Incident a few weeks ago, I've come to the conclusion that the reason torture enthusiasts are so fond of abducting innocent people is that like the phony Major in that classic western, they get sadistic pleasure out of torturing and killing people they know to be innocent. While guilty thugs try to act tough, put on a brave front and tough it out as much as possible, innocent people like Maher Arrar and Abdallah Higazy and countless others will protest their innocence, cry in pain, beg for mercy, etc -all much more fun and entertaining for the sadistic fucktards who torture them.

[MKSheppard]

Its sad that Americans can't live up to standards of POW conduct afforded to fucking Nazis.

Yeah. We can't even shoot them.



Like we did the Operation Greif people.

[fgalkin]

The Operation Greif people dressed up in American uniforms to sneak behind our lines.

And we didn't shoot Skorzeny, after the SOE testified they did the same thing.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Sea Skimmer]

The Operation Greif people dressed up in American uniforms to sneak behind our lines.

And we didn't shoot Skorzeny, after the SOE testified they did the same thing.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

We put them to death because they opened fire with American uniforms on. Simply being captured with the uniform also happened to make you a spy, and at the time a spy was subject to summary execution.

Skorzeny was put on trial for this, and he was acquitted, because no proof could be found that he ordered his men to actually fight in American uniforms. The mere act of using those uniforms for infiltration was not considered a war crime, and this was supported by historical precedent. The precedent being that in naval warfare for hundreds of years it was considered acceptable to approach an enemy ship with a false flag flying, so long as it was hauled down just before you actually opened fire.

[MKSheppard]

Skorzeny was put on trial for this, and he was acquitted, because no proof could be found that he ordered his men to actually fight in American uniforms. The mere act of using those uniforms for infiltration was not considered a war crime, and this was supported by historical precedent. The precedent being that in naval warfare for hundreds of years it was considered acceptable to approach an enemy ship with a false flag flying, so long as it was hauled down just before you actually opened fire.

You know, I wonder if we could actually try and convict the people we capture in Iraq for fighting in civilian "uniforms".

[The Spartan]

Didn't American POWs get put through this same kind of shit during their stay in North Vietnam?

I know they got put into "stress positions" at the very least.

We called it torture then. Call it torture now.

Oh, wait. How silly of me. It's okay if we do it. Jesus I'm so ashamed right now.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Prison bitch needs to learn what a red herring is. Something like 90% of your N&P posts must be completely off-topic. Doesn't want to address torture, so let's talk about legal execution?

No one is arguing execution is always illegal; we allow the justice system in this country to execute people. However thankfully we don't allow them to torture people.

[Setzer]

Vital Information? For fuck's sake, they'll just do what people have done since the days of the Inquisition, and lie to get the torture to stop.

Phone tapping? They'll just speak in code like the Mafia did.

I think I'll move to Canada if shit like this outlives Bush.

[Darth Wong]

You've also gotta love the logic of "it's OK because other heinous butchers and fascists have done it" that some people are starting to pull. They figure "if they can do it, so can we!"

[The_Last_Rebel]

What about polygraph tests for the prisoners? Why not hook one up, ask him yes or no questions, carefully worded in a way that would give the info I needed, whether he lied or not, and you wouldn't have to lay a hand on him.

And make sure there are 3 chairs in the room...the interviewer's, the interviewee's, and in the corner, God's chair.

[Keevan_Colton]

What about polygraph tests for the prisoners? Why not hook one up, ask him yes or no questions, carefully worded in a way that would give the info I needed, whether he lied or not, and you wouldn't have to lay a hand on him.

And make sure there are 3 chairs in the room...the interviewer's, the interviewee's, and in the corner, God's chair.

You mean hook them up to a nervousness detector...gee...that'll be really helpful.

[CaptainChewbacca]

What about polygraph tests for the prisoners? Why not hook one up, ask him yes or no questions, carefully worded in a way that would give the info I needed, whether he lied or not, and you wouldn't have to lay a hand on him.

And make sure there are 3 chairs in the room...the interviewer's, the interviewee's, and in the corner, God's chair.

1. Polygraphs aren't 100% reliable.
2. We might not know what questions to ask in order for the polygraph to work.
3. Its ok to lie to infidels when you're waging Jihad.

[Coyote]

In Guiliani's appearance at the Iowa speech, MSNBC reported that he bombed-- badly. Apparantly he was 90 minutes late and when he showed up, he walked right past everyone to the bathroom. Then he came out and delivered this sputtering, rambling monstrosity of a speech. Supposedly, he was 20 minutes into his speech before there was even a hint of reaction from the crowd-- when a woman in the front row sneezed.

Supposedly, no one was impressed. I hope that Iowa does, indeed, prove to be decisive and delivers him a handy backslap out of the race. The thought of him having a chance is scary.

[Adrian Laguna]

In Guiliani's appearance at the Iowa speech, MSNBC reported that he bombed-- badly. Apparantly he was 90 minutes late and when he showed up, he walked right past everyone to the bathroom. Then he came out and delivered this sputtering, rambling monstrosity of a speech. Supposedly, he was 20 minutes into his speech before there was even a hint of reaction from the crowd-- when a woman in the front row sneezed.

Sleep deprivation will do that to you. You can't keep track of time, your body cycles are all over the place, and your words are rambling and incoherent. If he keeps torturing himself any longer to prove a point he'll soon drop out of the race so he can get some sleep.