trilithim torpedoes - effect on the empire

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-15 12:21pm

Are we all forgetting that the trilithium torpedo is lost technology? It's all well and good to briefly forget that for the sake of this scenario, but if we start talking about how the Federation should defend itself in general, we must stick to weapons they are known to have.

Supernova weapons are not that common. People travelled from the future to try to find one (the Tox Uthat), the Klingon gruesome twosome died trying to get one (STG), Soren spent untold decades trying to develop one, and if Skippy had one, he wouldn't need that goofy Medusa-radiation "superweapon" to destroy Earth.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-15 12:42pm

Darth Wong wrote:Are we all forgetting that the trilithium torpedo is lost technology? It's all well and good to briefly forget that for the sake of this scenario, but if we start talking about how the Federation should defend itself in general, we must stick to weapons they are known to have.

Supernova weapons are not that common. People travelled from the future to try to find one (the Tox Uthat), the Klingon gruesome twosome died trying to get one (STG), Soren spent untold decades trying to develop one, and if Skippy had one, he wouldn't need that goofy Medusa-radiation "superweapon" to destroy Earth.

skippy. lol

anyway, back to the topic at hand..i agree, it may come across as delusions of granduer to discuss such things, but i don't think it is. we simply cannot dismiss trilitium torpedoes as dead tech. just as the nuclear race here on earth, once a weapon is known to be a viable, possible thing, everyone wants one. the power to blow up a star makes for one tremendously tasty carrot being dangled before the minds of the twisted. come on now, you cant tell me for a moment you believe that a fed science team did not tear soren's little mountain hideaway apart after the Enterprise crew was rescued! christ, thats the holy grail of weaponry...they couldn't and wouldn't just say no thanks and walk away from it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-15 12:45pm

Given how they treated the Phase cloak...yeah

That and would they understand it?

Just because you may or may not have something in your possession, it's understanding how it works and then duplicating it again is the hard part.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-15 12:46pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:skippy. lol anyway, back to the topic at hand..i agree, it may come across as delusions of granduer to discuss such things, but i don't think it is. we simply cannot dismiss trilitium torpedoes as dead tech. just as the nuclear race here on earth, once a weapon is known to be a viable, possible thing, everyone wants one. the power to blow up a star makes for one tremendously tasty carrot being dangled before the minds of the twisted. come on now, you cant tell me for a moment you believe that a fed science team did not tear soren's little mountain hideaway apart after the Enterprise crew was rescued! christ, thats the holy grail of weaponry...they couldn't and wouldn't just say no thanks and walk away from it.

The desire to develop something does not equal the ability. Need I remind you that they've had a hard-on for transwarp drive since ST3, some 80 years before TNG?

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-15 01:05pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Pu-239 wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Federation should have the space navy equivalent of boomer subs equipped w/ trilithium torpedo silos.
This I like. Unfortunately they are too stupid
thats the best goddamn fed defense strategy i have heard on this board...or any for that matter. a fleet of phase cloaked boomers. it might work if the fed had hyperdrive which they don't. or if they managed to keep ships in communication with some kind of flash traffic message system the US Navy uses. they most likely could not keep the empire at bay for long, but that would be a kickass strategy against the rommies and dominion.

The Federation is banned from developing and using cloak technology, due to some weird treaty that states that the Romulans should be able to kick their ass (don't ask me). Has this treaty been canceled yet?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-15 01:06pm

Nope...given how adamant they were of giving the Definant a cloak.

I say so far it's in full swing.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2003-01-15 01:24pm

IIRC the treaty with the Romulans was the "Treaty of Algeron". I think it ended the Fed-Rommie war in exchage for the Feddies giving up the development of cloak tech.

Double Post Cleaned up-Bean

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-15 01:50pm

Given the range from the sun to planet and the power of the shields, I doubt the world would be destroyed. It would however be a fucking pain to move a quadrillion people off a planet before it freezes. Everyone of importance would however escape.

FettKyle · Post by **FettKyle** » 2003-01-15 01:53pm

I believe that those scientist would mostly stay away from it because only crackpot mad scientist would go for that stuff the Federation will do anything for peace including fucking a donkey.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-15 02:56pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Given the range from the sun to planet and the power of the shields, I doubt the world would be destroyed. It would however be a fucking pain to move a quadrillion people off a planet before it freezes. Everyone of importance would however escape.

umm, not to be a prick, but how can you make a statement like that without backing it up with physics?

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2003-01-15 03:21pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:arguments about whether or not it is a dead technology aside (Master of Ossus ) let's pose the hypothetical question. what happens if federation loyalists manage to hit a star, lets say in the coriscant system, with a trilitium torpedo and sending it into supernova. the planet would have several minutes warning to take action before the shockwave hits. what do you all think would be likely scenerios in the minutes following detonation of the star?

trilithium weapons do not cause supernovae they merely stop all fusion within a star, with the end results being a level 12 shockwave. Supernovae are more complex and far more violent than that.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-15 03:30pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:come on now, you cant tell me for a moment you believe that a fed science team did not tear soren's little mountain hideaway apart after the Enterprise crew was rescued! christ, thats the holy grail of weaponry...they couldn't and wouldn't just say no thanks and walk away from it.

Soren's little mountain hideaway contains nothing more than an empty launch platform, some broken catwalks and a dead guy with a wig... not much to rediscover trilitium containment or whatever. The info was given to the Klingons, but guess what: it was kinda erased when the BoP exploded.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-15 03:33pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Nope...given how adamant they were of giving the Definant a cloak.

I say so far it's in full swing.

Yeah the only reason the Defiant has a cloak is because it's sponsored by Romulans. Once they were about to withdraw support because of I-dunno-what, funny thing is that if that happened they were supposed to dismantle the Defiant.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2003-01-15 03:38pm

What about the terrorist that tried to blow up Bajor's star?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-15 03:47pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:come on now, you cant tell me for a moment you believe that a fed science team did not tear soren's little mountain hideaway apart after the Enterprise crew was rescued! christ, thats the holy grail of weaponry...they couldn't and wouldn't just say no thanks and walk away from it.
Soren's little mountain hideaway contains nothing more than an empty launch platform, some broken catwalks and a dead guy with a wig... not much to rediscover trilitium containment or whatever. The info was given to the Klingons, but guess what: it was kinda erased when the BoP exploded.

Um, Soren's "little mountain hideaway" was only left intact in the timeline where the star was destroyed. When Picard and Kirk came back from the Nexus (the "real" timeline), the missile blew up before launching: destroying the platform. There was nothing left that would be worth recovering.

[/nitpick]

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-15 04:04pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Given the range from the sun to planet and the power of the shields, I doubt the world would be destroyed. It would however be a fucking pain to move a quadrillion people off a planet before it freezes. Everyone of importance would however escape.

umm, not to be a prick, but how can you make a statement like that without backing it up with physics?

If you take the total energy of a supernova and distribute it within a single sphere surface with Earths distance to the sun as a diameter you get more energy than necessary to blow the planet apart... but much less than the DS for example.

Type I Supernova ( white dwarf supernova )

total energy of the nova: 1E44 Joule

surface of a sphere with radius "earth-sun": 153E6 km^2*pi*4 ~= 3E17 km^2

area blocked by earth ( viewed from the sun ): 13000 km^2*pi ~= 1.33E8 km^2

total energy which hit earth: 1.33E8 km^2 / 3E17 km^2 * 1E44 Joule ~= 4.4E34 Joule

even if this energy would be delivered at once it would not be enough to kill an Alderaan type shield... and Coruscant has better shields.

If someone spots a mistake, please tell me...

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-15 04:34pm

Darth Wong wrote:Are we all forgetting that the trilithium torpedo is lost technology? It's all well and good to briefly forget that for the sake of this scenario, but if we start talking about how the Federation should defend itself in general, we must stick to weapons they are known to have.

Supernova weapons are not that common. People travelled from the future to try to find one (the Tox Uthat), the Klingon gruesome twosome died trying to get one (STG), Soren spent untold decades trying to develop one, and if Skippy had one, he wouldn't need that goofy Medusa-radiation "superweapon" to destroy Earth.

Oh I'm aware. I'm saying they should've taken greater care to ensure they could duplicate the design.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-15 04:37pm

HRogge wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Given the range from the sun to planet and the power of the shields, I doubt the world would be destroyed. It would however be a fucking pain to move a quadrillion people off a planet before it freezes. Everyone of importance would however escape.

umm, not to be a prick, but how can you make a statement like that without backing it up with physics?
If you take the total energy of a supernova and distribute it within a single sphere surface with Earths distance to the sun as a diameter you get more energy than necessary to blow the planet apart... but much less than the DS for example.

Type I Supernova ( white dwarf supernova )

total energy of the nova: 1E44 Joule

surface of a sphere with radius "earth-sun": 153E6 km^2*pi*4 ~= 3E17 km^2

area blocked by earth ( viewed from the sun ): 13000 km^2*pi ~= 1.33E8 km^2

total energy which hit earth: 1.33E8 km^2 / 3E17 km^2 * 1E44 Joule ~= 4.4E34 Joule

even if this energy would be delivered at once it would not be enough to kill an Alderaan type shield... and Coruscant has better shields.

If someone spots a mistake, please tell me...

I think it would rupture shields. No one has ever done reliable calcs on how much wattage a planetary shield can absorb, but I doubt it is anywhere near that.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-15 05:02pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I think it would rupture shields. No one has ever done reliable calcs on how much wattage a planetary shield can absorb, but I doubt it is anywhere near that.

The Alderaan shield blocked the superlaser for a fraction of a second... that would be enough to handle the nova. The DS is rated at 1E38 Joule, 2000 times stronger than the energy from the nova.

And my calculation asumed that all of the novas energy would be delivered within ONE moment, except within a few months.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-15 05:28pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:come on now, you cant tell me for a moment you believe that a fed science team did not tear soren's little mountain hideaway apart after the Enterprise crew was rescued! christ, thats the holy grail of weaponry...they couldn't and wouldn't just say no thanks and walk away from it.
Soren's little mountain hideaway contains nothing more than an empty launch platform, some broken catwalks and a dead guy with a wig... not much to rediscover trilitium containment or whatever. The info was given to the Klingons, but guess what: it was kinda erased when the BoP exploded.
Um, Soren's "little mountain hideaway" was only left intact in the timeline where the star was destroyed. When Picard and Kirk came back from the Nexus (the "real" timeline), the missile blew up before launching: destroying the platform. There was nothing left that would be worth recovering.

[/nitpick]

Actually that is not correct. At one point Soran is inputting information into a computer away from the launch point itself. That area survived the big fight to stop the missile from launching.

Another point that people haven't noticed. The Dominion was going to pop the Bajoran star and they were going to use a Trilithium weapon to do it.

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2003-01-15 05:35pm

Does anyone know how 'thick' the expanding shell of material from a supernova may be, rather than simply a thin shell?. It doesnt make any difference for the energy estimates, but it might tell us the Peak power absorbed by the shields.

Type II supernova models suggest a surface speed of 5000Km/sec and a maximum radius of 1e10Km at peak brightness(Introductory Astronomy & astrophysics, Zeilik & Gregory).
If it did take ~8 hours to fully pass the planet, peak power of the order 1e30W would be expected (1.5AU, planet radius 8865km, energy absorbed ~4e34J assuming 1e44J total kinetic energy output). Thats assuming of course an artifical supernova is as energetic as a natural Type II with a large star. As it cant occur naturally for a star this small its possibly too large by a couple of orders of magnitude.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-15 05:36pm

Alyeska wrote:Actually that is not correct. At one point Soran is inputting information into a computer away from the launch point itself. That area survived the big fight to stop the missile from launching.

True, but the warhead was not developed there. It was merely a launch platform, and the station (which was destroyed) would have held the actual design data.

Another point that people haven't noticed. The Dominion was going to pop the Bajoran star and they were going to use a Trilithium weapon to do it.

I remember that. However, the Dominion is not the Federation, and is not likely to give these things away.

As for their effectiveness, we don't actually know what kind of shockwave they produce. Whatever they're producing is not a true supernova, which requires a particular set of processes beforehand that will take a lot longer than a few seconds. It's certainly powerful enough to scour a world clean, but to say that it's a supernova just because they describe it that way is simply wrong. We never even see what the final state of the star is afterwards.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-01-15 10:17pm

The star Soren stopped didn't even destroy the planet. The only thing that killed everyone was the fact that the star's gravity was disrupted, letting the ribbon smash into the planet. As if. Even if all fusion stops within a star, the star still has mass, and thus gravity, meaning the ribbon will stay in place.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-15 10:24pm

HRogge wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:I think it would rupture shields. No one has ever done reliable calcs on how much wattage a planetary shield can absorb, but I doubt it is anywhere near that.
The Alderaan shield blocked the superlaser for a fraction of a second... that would be enough to handle the nova. The DS is rated at 1E38 Joule, 2000 times stronger than the energy from the nova.

And my calculation asumed that all of the novas energy would be delivered within ONE moment, except within a few months.

Yes but you don't know the wattage of the DS beam and if possibly it has a brief lower-intensity precursor to sap off shields before blowing the planet. Remember this thing has to recharge for every good shot.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-15 10:34pm

To hear some tell it, the Feds not only have sun popping tech, they modified it with the genesis tech, allowing them to transform the entire mass of the star into starships. This would both eliminate enemy systems, and production problems.

And yes, that is a real claim, from SB. Don't remember who said it though.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

trilithim torpedoes - effect on the empire

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