"Secular consumerism/nationalism is worse than religion

[TithonusSyndrome]

I'm sure this defense has been encountered at least once and probably more often by every board member here. It's a fairly obvious tu quoque fallacy, and as such not difficult to retort to. But that's not what I'm wondering; I'm wondering if there's actually any truth to it. Is religion a petty social relic whose ability to threaten social justice, equality and overall wellbeing pales in comparison to the might of the military-industrial complex, the Brave New World-like media stranglehold on the minds of Western voters, and consumer culture? If historians like Avro Manhattan are to be believed, religious groups like the Vatican have been equal partners to the likes of the CIA in most of the 20th century's biggest moments of black flag operations and other forms of neocolonialism, but I only recently discovered him and as such, I can't comment on how reliable he is. I'm hoping someone here could answer that for me as well. But I have to admit, if the worst that religion is able to do is interfere with stem-cell research, that seems like a pretty distant second to deploying troops to protect American financial interests and actually shooting people dead and leaving their country in upheaval, not to mention creating demand for sweatshops known for their human rights abuses and inundating citizens with so much instant gratification that they forget entirely about their civic duties.

[Stuart Mackey]

I am not sure of the point of this, as it seems like one big question that should be answered by you via research.

Oh, use paragraphs, that lot hurt to read.

[Edi]

Traditionally, nationalism has actually leaned on religion to lend it extra support and supposed legitimacy. Why do you think "For God and country!" is such an ubiquitous rallying cry among jingoists? So religion just exacerbates that problem.

Consumerism without religion has nowhere near the track record of religion in causing harm, so that's direct bullshit as well. The Brave New World of spineless media in he West is (thankfully) mainly an American phenomenon, though there are some symptoms elsewhere as well.

So yes, it's nothing but a tu quoque fallacy and an almost completely baseless one at that.

[Broomstick]

Dumb question that's not entirely off topic...

What's a "tu quoque fallacy" in 25 words or less?

[Androsphinx]

Avro Manhattan was a conspiracy theorist nut, who attributed everything from Vietnam to the Cold War to turning St Sophia into a museum to the Vatican. You should read actual historians instead.

As for your premise, you are aware that one of the biggest blocs supporting the Iraq war, and one of the only ones remaining in broad support of Bush's foreign policy are the Christian fundamentalists?

[Xenophobe3691]

Dumb question that's not entirely off topic...

What's a "tu quoque fallacy" in 25 words or less?

"You did it too!"

[Coyote]

Actually, yes-- I do indeed feel that Big Business Consumerism and corporate influence is actually a far more powerful and dangerous immediate threat to the welfare of the USA in particular, the West in general, and the world overall. Corporate influence has vastly superior resources to draw from than even organized religion, IMO.

If I could purge politics of either religious influence or corporate influence, I'd really be flummoxed, to tell the truth, and in the long run I'd probably stick with purging corporate influence.

[General Zod]

I'm sure this defense has been encountered at least once and probably more often by every board member here. It's a fairly obvious tu quoque fallacy, and as such not difficult to retort to. But that's not what I'm wondering; I'm wondering if there's actually any truth to it. Is religion a petty social relic whose ability to threaten social justice, equality and overall wellbeing pales in comparison to the might of the military-industrial complex, the Brave New World-like media stranglehold on the minds of Western voters, and consumer culture?

If historians like Avro Manhattan are to be believed, religious groups like the Vatican have been equal partners to the likes of the CIA in most of the 20th century's biggest moments of black flag operations and other forms of neocolonialism, but I only recently discovered him and as such, I can't comment on how reliable he is. I'm hoping someone here could answer that for me as well.

But I have to admit, if the worst that religion is able to do is interfere with stem-cell research, that seems like a pretty distant second to deploying troops to protect American financial interests and actually shooting people dead and leaving their country in upheaval, not to mention creating demand for sweatshops known for their human rights abuses and inundating citizens with so much instant gratification that they forget entirely about their civic duties.

First, learn how to use paragraphs like I just did above. They're not that difficult to use and they make you look like less of a moron. Second, I have to say anyone claiming religion is less harmful is full of shit. Or do some of the biggest ethnic cleansings in history being spurred on by religion (y hallo thar Crusades & Holocaust!) not mean anything?

[Darth Wong]

They will just claim that religion did not really cause those things. As if great armies would voluntarily march thousands of kilometres to Jerusalem for any other reason. Having said that, nationalism is indeed a powerful motivator for destruction, and is a legitimate competitor to religion in the mass-killing contest.

[General Zod]

They will just claim that religion did not really cause those things. As if great armies would voluntarily march thousands of kilometres to Jerusalem for any other reason. Having said that, nationalism is indeed a powerful motivator for destruction, and is a legitimate competitor to religion in the mass-killing contest.

The line does start to get blurry when you have countries promoting nationalism and developing personality cults that suspiciously look like religion around their leaders though (Chairman Mao and Kim Jong Il come to mind).

[Androsphinx]

They will just claim that religion did not really cause those things.

Well, the linkage between Christianity and the Holocaust is fairly remote (not ignoring Goldhagen et al).

[General Zod]

They will just claim that religion did not really cause those things.

Well, the linkage between Christianity and the Holocaust is fairly remote (not ignoring Goldhagen et al).

It's funny that "religion" is the only thing mentioned and dumbass apologists immediately pop up and assume Christianity was being singled out.

[Rye]

They will just claim that religion did not really cause those things.

Well, the linkage between Christianity and the Holocaust is fairly remote (not ignoring Goldhagen et al).

Directly, maybe, but Christianity's judgments on who sucked and who didn't made the choices of who was gassed phenomenally easier to swallow for the overwhelmingly christian population.

[Androsphinx]

It's funny that "religion" is the only thing mentioned and dumbass apologists immediately pop up and assume Christianity was being singled out.

You mentioned the Crusades and the Holocaust, moron. Darth Wong mentioned only the former, and I pointed out that the same wasn't necessarily true for the latter.

[Androsphinx]

Directly, maybe, but Christianity's judgments on who sucked and who didn't made the choices of who was gassed phenomenally easier to swallow for the overwhelmingly christian population.

What you say would make sense for the Jewish and homosexual victims - less so for the gypsies, ethnic Poles, Soviet POWs and the mentally ill. This is, as mentioned above, part of Goldhagen's thesis ("Hitler's Willing Executioners"), but doesn't seem to hold up very well.

[General Zod]

You mentioned the Crusades and the Holocaust, moron. Darth Wong mentioned only the former, and I pointed out that the same wasn't necessarily true for the latter.

It's not as if it's the only religious elements Hitler borrowed from for his justifications.

I could always give more specific ones like the Spanish Inquisition and witch-hunts and limit it to Christianit only barbarism if you prefer though, but please feel free to keep pretending that Christianity had nothing to do with committing such atrocities.

[Androsphinx]

It's not as if it's the only religious elements Hitler borrowed from for his justifications.

Like what else? The pagan religion he invented? Which was followed by all 4% of Germans? When you talk about the Holocaust and religion, by far the most obvious and most prominent religion to take into consideration is Christianity. Other influences are negligable.

I could always give more specific ones like the Spanish Inquisition and witch-hunts and limit it to Christianit only barbarism if you prefer though, but please feel free to keep pretending that Christianity had nothing to do with committing such atrocities

I'm not saying anything of the kind. I wasn't even addressing you when I mentioned the Holocaust - Darth Wong mentioned a direct causal relationship between the Crusades and Christianity, and I just pointed out that the relationship (if any) between Christianity and the Holocaust is much less direct.

I don't know why you are confusing my comment on a specific sub-section with a rejection of the whole OP. And I'm just amused that you think I'm a slavish apologiser for Christianity.

[General Zod]

Like what else? The pagan religion he invented? Which was followed by all 4% of Germans? When you talk about the Holocaust and religion, by far the most obvious and most prominent religion to take into consideration is Christianity. Other influences are negligable.

He borrowed heavily from Norse mythology, but if its agreed that Christianity was the most influential why the objection earlier? It's pretty clear that Christianity had a considerable influence.

I'm not saying anything of the kind. I wasn't even addressing you when I mentioned the Holocaust - Darth Wong mentioned a direct causal relationship between the Crusades and Christianity, and I just pointed out that the relationship (if any) between Christianity and the Holocaust is much less direct.

You're seriously suggesting that there's no to little relationship when one of the excuses frequently used was "The Jews killed Jesus?"

[Androsphinx]

You're seriously suggesting that there's no to little relationship when one of the excuses frequently used was "The Jews killed Jesus?"

You want to find me a major Nazi leader who said that, moron?

[TithonusSyndrome]

Yes, that looked ugly to me too even as I posted it, but I'm gonna play the "too late didn't pay attention" card here. It's not lost on me.

I am not sure of the point of this, as it seems like one big question that should be answered by you via research.

Do I look like a researcher? I'm asking you guys. If I had the time to do original research, that's what I'd do.

Avro Manhattan was a conspiracy theorist nut, who attributed everything from Vietnam to the Cold War to turning St Sophia into a museum to the Vatican. You should read actual historians instead.

Noted. Thank you.

As for your premise, you are aware that one of the biggest blocs supporting the Iraq war, and one of the only ones remaining in broad support of Bush's foreign policy are the Christian fundamentalists?

That's kind of what I was trying to cover when I mentioned Avro Manhattan; that religious motivations could've stood shoulder to shoulder on at least a few occasions with secular nationalist ones. Even in the case of Iraq, though, I'm tempted to believe that the religious motivations were mostly on the fringe of the list of real causes and the invasion could've taken place without a religious president, which isn't my way of exonerating religion, just noting that secular nationalism can get the job done on it's own.

[Androsphinx]

You do realise that the things which third parties say to justify a policy may have nothing at all to do with the reasons why the perpentrators did them? The Catholic Church in Germany were a bunch of anti-semitic fucks, but their influence on Nazi policy towards the Jews? Almost zero.

[General Zod]

You want to find me a major Nazi leader who said that, moron?

Who gives a shit whether they said it or not? The reigning sentiment at the time was that the Jews killed Jesus among the common populace. So it was retardedly easy to use that idea against the Jewish people. It's not as if every Pope up until recently hadn't been making that claim to reinforce the belief or anything.

[Darth Wong]

Androsphinx, ever heard of a guy named Martin Luther? Your attempt to divorce Nazi anti-Semitism from Christianity is bullshit. The guy was such a rabid anti-Semite that he makes modern anti-Semites look like Mel Brooks, and he was the inspiration for German anti-Semitism.

[Plekhanov]

You do realise that the things which third parties say to justify a policy may have nothing at all to do with the reasons why the perpentrators did them? The Catholic Church in Germany were a bunch of anti-semitic fucks, but their influence on Nazi policy towards the Jews? Almost zero.

Bullshit without the cultural influence of centuries of officially promulgated anti-semitism by the catholic and protestant churches the Nazi holocaust would never have happened.

[Rahvin]

You do realise that the things which third parties say to justify a policy may have nothing at all to do with the reasons why the perpentrators did them? The Catholic Church in Germany were a bunch of anti-semitic fucks, but their influence on Nazi policy towards the Jews? Almost zero.

Martin Luther, as has been pointed out, was a major anti-semite (see his book, "On the Jews and their Lies"), and is widely known to have been the major inspiration behind Hitler's antisemitism.

Many people confess their amazement that Hitler preaches ideas which they have always held.... From the Middle Ages we can look to the same example in Martin Luther. What stirred in the soul and spirit of the German people of that time, finally found expression in his person, in his words and deeds.

Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance.... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp (Schrot und Korn).
-Volkischer Beobachter, 25 Aug. 1933, (cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich)

A few from Luther himself:

"I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen."

"Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, "When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit" [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments..."

"In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule-- if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. . . . With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience."

Read more here. My quotes come from that site, and there are many, many more.

Martin Luther, of course as you may remember, was the founder of Protestant Christianity. The relationship between Christianity and the Holocaust is undeniable for anyone who actually looks. Hell, this doesn't even go into all of the Christian quotes directly from Mein Kampf and Hitler's own speeches.

He may have not directly said "we should kill the Jews because they killed Jesus," but the implication was strong, and his religion (Christianity) WAS his justification for the Holocaust.