Mythbusters: 200GT Turbolasers, 100% Phaser Accuracy

[Lord Poe]

The Claim:

The 200 GT turbolaser claim was invented by the ICS! Before the ICS was published, Warsies never claimed 200 GT! Waaaaa!!

Link 1

From: Marti...@aol.com (SirNitram)
Newsgroups: alt.startrek.vs.starwars
Subject: Re: Sixty SSD's VS 100 Borg Cubes and 200 Sovren class ships
Date: 13 Jul 2001

Yea, I suppose it's debatable how many orders of magnitude more effective a single HTL bolt is than a full Phaser blast from a GCS. We have the calc's. A single HTL blast is measured in gigatons, and is NOT dependent on the target. So, while Phaser's drop their efficiency to a few megawatt laser on armor, the TL is still going strong.

Link 2

From: "Kynes" <ky...@choam.org>
Subject: Re: [calc] Alternate Turbolaser calcs
Date: 1999/07/04

No arguments here. After all:

1e38 J for DS blast x 2 for Imperial starfleet: 2e38 J / 1e7 for each ship: 1e31 J / 200 for each weapon: 5e28 J / 4e9 for TNT tons: 1.25e13 MT / 1e12 for exatons: 12.5 ET

Thus, even if the recoil from a TL bolt was 999 gigatons (the max it could be before being in the "teraton range") it would still deliver less than 0.000008% of its energy as KE. Obviously, other warships would worry far more about the thermal/ray properties of the bolt than the inconsequential gigatons of KE, thus naming the shield that protects against them a "ray shield."

Link 3

From: x...@iafrica.com (Michael January)
Subject: [calcs] Further to BDZ
Date: 1999/07/11

Edam has been insisting that a significant portion of the energy required in a BDZ comes from an ISD's fighter and bomber complement, and missiles launched from the ISD, rather than the ISD's 'beam weapons' or turbolasers.
In an earlier post, I pointed out that if current power assumptions are used:-

10 MT for a proton torpedo
60 gigajoules for a fighters laser-cannons
500 megatons for a capital ships concussion missiles

and these weapons were fired continuously for a 24 hour period, they would contribute less than 0.001% of the energy required to do what a BDZ operation demands.

If however, we accept Edam's position that these weapons contribute a significant portion of the energy, then we can do the following. A BDZ demands a minimum of about 5.3e27 Joules to be injected. This will raise the temperature of 30% of a 20km crust to the melting point of Iron, but not enough to melt it, let alone to melt rock, not iron.

If proton torpedoes (or other bombs fired by TIE bombers) contributed 10% of this energy (5.3e26 Joules), then the 12 TIE bombers would have to fire TWO MILLION missiles of about 122 gigatons each during the BDZ operation.
If the laser cannons on the 72 fighters (including the bombers) contributed a further 10%, then this would require 12.5 MILLION weapons firings of 5100 megatons per shot.

If an ISD carried 1000 missiles, and these contributed 10% to the BDZ, then each missile would have to have a warhead yield of 126 TERATONS.

That still leaves the turbolasers to do 70% of the job, which means that individually, each turbolaser is still 146 GIGATONS, and an ISD would have to have 200 of them fire continuously for 24 hours to finish the job.

Personally, I am quite happy to accept that a TIE delivers 5.1 gigatons per shot of it's laser cannons, and that a proton torpedo is 122 gigatons, and 12 TIE Bombers between them carry two million such missiles.

This also seems to balance out nicely

Turbolaser 146 Gigatons
One fighter, per shot 5.1 Gigatons
Proton Torp 122 Gigatons
Concussion Torp 126 Teratons

Puts all the weapons in pretty much the same power class, except for concussion missiles, which are MUCH more powerful than turbolasers

The Claim:

"Trekkies have NEEEVER claimed 100% accuracy for rek weapons!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!



Link 1

From: tsalo...@vipunen.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi)
Subject: Re: Cross-Universe Comparison
Date: 1996/02/19

This seems unlikely to be entirely "true". The rebels had computerized sights that seemed to lock onto TIEs quite nicely, and the turbolaser gunners of the Deathstar didn't actually look out of the window either. Admittedly, the turbolaser firing accuracy in SW:ANH was practically zero, while Trek starship phasers have a literally 100% accuracy, but then again, Trek ships always fight at point-blank range with their phasers in TNG (negating the speed advantage).

Link 2

From: Chris Wagner <wagn...@plebeian.com>
Subject: Re: What is more advanced: ST or SW Technology ?
Date: 1998/07/18

Computer targeting makes a huge difference. The E *always* hits on
target. We've seen that SD's accuracy leaves something to be desired.
Just look at the begining of ANH (Tantive IV) or the Battle of Endor.

Link 3

and if you notice,the defiant has a FIXED phase canon,meaning the ship must be manuavered to aim,and it still gets 68% accuracy with it.thats incredible accuracy for ANY battle weapon in almost ANY known war.

phaser arrays however are EASILY getting 90% accuracy,even in battle,RARELY have i ever seen the enterprise miss with phasers[if at all].

Link 4

08-23-2002
And for the person who said a Phaser would never hit a tie, you need to watch more Trek. The Enterprise's Targeting system is 100% accurate.......

And finally,

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/a3.html

Even the flight time from surface to orbit, however, suggests that Trek has far faster beam weapons, while the fine accuracy of beam weapons demonstrated so clearly in TOS has no demonstrable analogue in real-life or Star Wars.

[Batman]

Let's see-take the Alderaan incident, scale down linearly from there, reduce the firepower by 5 orders of magnitude to compensate for the possibility that maybe the superlaser DOESN'T scale down linearly and you get...?

[Sidewinder]

Even the flight time from surface to orbit, however, suggests that Trek has far faster beam weapons, while the fine accuracy of beam weapons demonstrated so clearly in TOS has no demonstrable analogue in real-life or Star Wars.

I've seen very little of TOS. Can someone verify whether or not the weapons under Kirk's command were more accurate?

[Batman]

The term 'no' comes to mind.

[Batman]

To elaborate, watch TWOK. Where the E-nil and Reliant repeatedly missed each other at ranges where WW2 targeting systems would have GUARANTEED hits using contemporary weapon systems, leave alone supposedly lightspeed weapons.

[Isolder74]

To elaborate, watch TWOK. Where the E-nil and Reliant repeatedly missed each other at ranges where WW2 targeting systems would have GUARANTEED hits using contemporary weapon systems, leave alone supposedly lightspeed weapons.

To be fair Bats, that was in a nebula firing without weapons locks at all with best guess as their targeting resolution. When firing in open space at each other, both ships hit spot on. And hit the part of the enemy ship they were trying to take out.

[Batman]

To elaborate, watch TWOK. Where the E-nil and Reliant repeatedly missed each other at ranges where WW2 targeting systems would have GUARANTEED hits using contemporary weapon systems, leave alone supposedly lightspeed weapons.

To be fair Bats, that was in a nebula firing without weapons locks at all with best guess as their targeting resolution. When firing in open space at each other, both ships hit spot on. And hit the part of the enemy ship they were trying to take out.

To put it bluntly-NO. Both ships were perfectly visible to each other. Yes, their uber-tech targeting systems may have been affected by the nebula but simple optical using real-world tech systems (you know, like the ones used in WW2) would have worked just fine.

[JGregory32]

It's been a long time since I saw the series, but don't we see several instances where moving the ship in any manner generates a miss? I do remember when the two Klingon Chicks fired on the enterprise the ship was able to doge by moving a small distance.
Of course stating any system acts with 100% efficency under BATTLE conditions is just stupid.

[BountyHunterSAx]

There are plenty of things to like about Star Trek; albeit not necessarily things that appeal to those who have had higher education. Why must trekkies, then, insist on humiliating themselves by insisting that Trek weapons and technology are among those things?

-AHMAD

[Isolder74]

To elaborate, watch TWOK. Where the E-nil and Reliant repeatedly missed each other at ranges where WW2 targeting systems would have GUARANTEED hits using contemporary weapon systems, leave alone supposedly lightspeed weapons.

To be fair Bats, that was in a nebula firing without weapons locks at all with best guess as their targeting resolution. When firing in open space at each other, both ships hit spot on. And hit the part of the enemy ship they were trying to take out.

To put it bluntly-NO. Both ships were perfectly visible to each other. Yes, their uber-tech targeting systems may have been affected by the nebula but simple optical using real-world tech systems (you know, like the ones used in WW2) would have worked just fine.

Hence why it seems when they used the manual firing control yoke on the torpedos every one of them hit as they didn't rely on the computer much. While it does seem odd that the trek ships lost almost all visual function and sensors almost completely it makes you wonder why they never thought to mount a optical camera on the front of the ship as back up. The battle in the Nebula show the flaws in the Federation's ship technology in that if both ships were in pristine condition they would have had the same problem fighting in the nebula.

I only wish that the movie show us how Chekov was aiming the torpedos. Was the yoke a manual targeting joystick or just a fire switch(which seems overdone for that application)

[Connor MacLeod]

It never ceases to amaze me how people just assume the ICS figures "came out of nowhere." The fact that lesser calcs were more prevalent before is not because they weren't out there, it was because those lower calcs were generally conservative. Note that if you look over alot of the older sites (or even ASVS) I'm btting you'd note that alot of the calcs done were, in fact, lower limits, not upper limits. There was always the possibility they could be higher, but either there wasn't anything definite about how high, or those claiming higher would nitpick or scoff at the possibility. The only thing "new" abut the ICS figures was that it precisely defined WHERE SW firepower sat.

What has always annoyed me is that, having lived through a good deal of the "Pre-ICS" debate era, I can always remember that even the "consevative" calcs were complained about or nitpicked. I lost how many times some clown kept insisting that hte TESB asteroid wasn't really vaporized, or it was samller, or some other inanity. And heaven forbid anyone try to use the "half the starfleet" bit frrom ANH or the various tech books, Base Delta Zero, or the Slave Ship quote - those all got nitpicked or dismissed as "irrelevant" for many of the same retarded reasons you see used by the more lunatic fringe trekkies today.

[bz249]

And heaven forbid anyone try to use the "half the starfleet" bit frrom ANH

How could they repel the "half the starfleet" quote? Ok using it as a quantitative argument may be a little wild since Solo was a mere fighter pilot, however (IMHO) it clearly indicates that while blowing a planet to pieces is an immense logistical problem, but the Empire can do it if they really-really want...

[Mad]

And heaven forbid anyone try to use the "half the starfleet" bit frrom ANH

How could they repel the "half the starfleet" quote? Ok using it as a quantitative argument may be a little wild since Solo was a mere fighter pilot, however (IMHO) it clearly indicates that while blowing a planet to pieces is an immense logistical problem, but the Empire can do it if they really-really want...

I think Connor is referring to General Dodonna's "the Death Star is heavily shielded and carries a firepower greater than half the starfleet" line.

[bz249]

And heaven forbid anyone try to use the "half the starfleet" bit frrom ANH

How could they repel the "half the starfleet" quote? Ok using it as a quantitative argument may be a little wild since Solo was a mere fighter pilot, however (IMHO) it clearly indicates that while blowing a planet to pieces is an immense logistical problem, but the Empire can do it if they really-really want...

I think Connor is referring to General Dodonna's "the Death Star is heavily shielded and carries a firepower greater than half the starfleet" line.

Your point... I forgot that line...

[Isolder74]

By the way, Batman, I wasn't saying that The Wrath of Kahn was perfect targeting but I was trying to point out that we have to ignore all the misses in the Nebula because of extenuating circumstances. Because of the intereference Trekkies can claim any misses in that battle as outliers and as such it does not prove or disprova anything in the regards of perfect targeting claim.

The myth of perfect target may well be from The Wrath of Kahn because after Kahn makes his 'lock' all his shots hit right where they are suppose to. Of course that is against an opponent that is basically a stationary target and has no countermeasures active. Then to make the myth complete Kirk does the same thing to Kahn after the prefix trick.

Now trekkies saying Federation ships always hit.....that's just not logical.

[Darth Servo]

TOS examples? Remember the Pioneer 10 probe is considered "most difficult" to hit and the BOP missed at least twice.

[NecronLord]

TOS examples? Remember the Pioneer 10 probe is considered "most difficult" to hit and the BOP missed at least twice.

With a big lock-on graphic right before no less.

Of course, if Wars can have bracketing fire, so can ST. There were three quick shots and the third hit. It's not as if Klaa stood up and went 'damn, I missed.'

[Batman]

Using bracketing fire one a centuries old unpowered probe that isn't going to make any course changes whatsoever seems moderately pointless, though.

[Lord Poe]

TOS examples? Remember the Pioneer 10 probe is considered "most difficult" to hit and the BOP missed at least twice.

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi7hRUwJyac

[NecronLord]

Using bracketing fire one a centuries old unpowered probe that isn't going to make any course changes whatsoever seems moderately pointless, though.

He's a young and ambitious and clearly moronic captain. I doubt he cares much about fire-efficiency, so much as shooty-splodey-ness. Of course, it's still a just plain stupid scene.

[Adrian Laguna]

Using bracketing fire one a centuries old unpowered probe that isn't going to make any course changes whatsoever seems moderately pointless, though.

He's a young and ambitious and clearly moronic captain. I doubt he cares much about fire-efficiency, so much as shooty-splodey-ness. Of course, it's still a just plain stupid scene.

The fact that he took charge of firing the shot personally shows he did it for sport. Now tell me, is it any fun if you let a computer do the aiming for you? I think he let the computer assist him in getting the shot in the ballpark, but he did the fine tuning manually. There are plenty of scenes that show Trek firing computers suck, that's not one of them.

[NecronLord]

The fact that he took charge of firing the shot personally shows he did it for sport. Now tell me, is it any fun if you let a computer do the aiming for you?

I made this exact argument a few days ago. There's actually a shot of a big reticule appearing around the probe on his screen.

[Kamakazie Sith]

To elaborate, watch TWOK. Where the E-nil and Reliant repeatedly missed each other at ranges where WW2 targeting systems would have GUARANTEED hits using contemporary weapon systems, leave alone supposedly lightspeed weapons.

To be fair Bats, that was in a nebula firing without weapons locks at all with best guess as their targeting resolution. When firing in open space at each other, both ships hit spot on. And hit the part of the enemy ship they were trying to take out.

To put it bluntly-NO. Both ships were perfectly visible to each other. Yes, their uber-tech targeting systems may have been affected by the nebula but simple optical using real-world tech systems (you know, like the ones used in WW2) would have worked just fine.

No, they were perfectly visible to the audience. They were not crystal clear to the Enterprise crew. Think of the view screen image when Khan did a 180 on them. Simple optics probably never used due to the fact that they're generally useless in space combat because of the problems judging distance in an environment like that.

[Kamakazie Sith]

TOS examples? Remember the Pioneer 10 probe is considered "most difficult" to hit and the BOP missed at least twice.

One thing that I'm always curious about is why are alien ships used to refute the claim that Federation ships have 100% accuracy? It just seems lazy to me, and not to mention you're talking about a ship with a mostly fixed weapon system. It's not like a phaser array...

[Stark]

Get this - the targeting computer for a fixed-weapon craft would be linked to the maneuver drive, in order to maintain the 'indicated aimpoint-actual aimpoint' connection. This is WW2 technology.