"Veiled voting" to be banned in Canada

[Ma Deuce]

Federal legislation would ban veiled voting
Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:20 PM EDT

By Randall Palmer

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Muslim women in niqabs or burqas will no longer be allowed to stay veiled when voting in Canada, under government legislation introduced on Friday.

The bill seeks to force the hand of Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand, who rebuffed a request by a parliamentary committee that he require the lifting of veils to prove voters' identities. He had insisted the existing law did not require this.

The new legislation would allow an exception only for someone whose face is bandaged after surgery or covered for other medical reasons.

The issue has become a hot potato especially in the province of Quebec, which is debating how far to accommodate minorities, and where the provincial electoral officer reversed course last March and required the unveiling of voters.

During a campaign for three federal seats in Quebec last month, all four federal parties said faces must be uncovered, but opposition Liberal Deputy Leader Michael Ignatieff was cool toward the bill in remarks on Friday.

"What I don't like, and object to, is the ways in which certain politicians are stirring this up," he told reporters outside the House of Commons.

He said the Liberals were committed to achieving a balance between religious freedom and civic duty, and that a decent society "would work out a pragmatic solution that keeps everybody happy."

The rival opposition party Bloc Quebecois, which had earlier introduced a bill similar to the Conservative government's, dismissed Ignatieff's criticism.

"I don't think anybody wants to play small politics with that. I think that we have to work to make sure that everybody is equal and that we will cooperate with the government if it's good for the electors," Bloc Member of Parliament Monique Guay said.

Conservative Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon, one of the cabinet members who introduced Friday's legislation, said that during last month's elections to fill vacant seats in Quebec some had shown up in masks to protest the whole situation.

"What we're trying to do here is keep and make sure there is electoral integrity in the process," Cannon said.

Excellent, and this is expected to pass with near-unanimous support. I don't see why they should be granted this kind of exemption for "religious reasons". There is a very good reason that election officials need people to prove that they are who they say they are when the vote, and that's a little hard to do if they won't even show their face. Religious accommodation can only go so far. Besides, anyone living in a Western country who deliberately conceals their face in public for no practical reason (such as cold weather, injury etc) should expect to be treated with suspicion, and Muslim women who choose to veil themselves are no different as far as I'm concerned. If they whine that this will prevent them from voting (even though this new bill still tries to be accommodating such as allowing them to show their face only behind a screen, in the presence of a female election official), well then fuck 'em.

[Imperial Overlord]

Good.

[Flagg]

Is it odd that even though I pretty much agree with this, it still makes me uneasy?

[Chris OFarrell]

Is it because unlike other groups who might protest, lodge a legal challenge or make some kind of civil disobedience, you are afraid that the "Religion of Peace" might have some person strap C4 to themselves and drive into a school in 'protest'?

[Shroom Man 777]

Infidels, this means war must be waged against your decadent filthy westerners! For this offense, we will behead all of you and rape your women and children and livestocks! JIHAD!

*goes to a store while wearing ski mask*

[Flagg]

Is it because unlike other groups who might protest, lodge a legal challenge or make some kind of civil disobedience, you are afraid that the "Religion of Peace" might have some person strap C4 to themselves and drive into a school in 'protest'?

There is that.

[Kanastrous]

Fuck this "pragmatic solution that keeps everybody happy" bullshit.

Whether or not people are happy with a pragmatic solution, shouldn't enter into the matter, at all.

I'm sorry to see that Canadians are obliged to deal with this crap; seems that once or twice a year there is some benighted medievalist git taking one state or another to court to sue for the right to have a driver's license photo taken while wearing a veil.

ANd what's worse, there's always a lawyer willing to waste the state's time, with the case.

[Elaro]

I'm sorry to see that Canadians are obliged to deal with this crap; seems that once or twice a year there is some benighted medievalist git taking one state or another to court to sue for the right to have a driver's license photo taken while wearing a veil.

ANd what's worse, there's always a lawyer willing to waste the state's time, with the case.

I blame multiculturalism. While good in principle, since the 80s, it degenerated into the "my personal habit/culture/whatever is untouchable! Fuck the law!" sentiment that allows such nonsense to happen.

[Darth Wong]

No one ever mentions the fact that no Islamic group actually asked for the right to vote while veiled anyway, and that not one politician involved in this whole affair can even find any record of a single complaint to that effect.

In other words, I have to wonder if this whole controversy was actually created by somebody trying to add fuel to anti-Muslim sentiment.

[Flagg]

No one ever mentions the fact that no Islamic group actually asked for the right to vote while veiled anyway, and that not one politician involved in this whole affair can even find any record of a single complaint to that effect.

In other words, I have to wonder if this whole controversy was actually created by somebody trying to add fuel to anti-Muslim sentiment.

This may come from a woman in FL who sued the state because they wouldn't allow her to get her drivers license photo taken with a veil on. She lost.

[CJvR]

I suspect that the fanatics are to shocked by the notion that their two legged livestock should have the right to vote to have formed any organized response yet.

[Flagg]

I suspect that the fanatics are to shocked by the notion that their two legged livestock should have the right to vote to have formed any organized response yet.

Right, because every muslim woman that wears a veil is nothing but chattel married to a fanatic.

[Kanastrous]

No one ever mentions the fact that no Islamic group actually asked for the right to vote while veiled anyway, and that not one politician involved in this whole affair can even find any record of a single complaint to that effect.

In other words, I have to wonder if this whole controversy was actually created by somebody trying to add fuel to anti-Muslim sentiment.

Possibly.

And if the outcome is a law in place to address the problem before it's become a problem, that impresses me as being okay; if no one's yet demanded to vote while veiled, then no one can claim to have been infringed upon, if no one ever does make the demand then likewise no one will have been constrained, and if the time comes when someone does insist upon doing it, well, the law will already be in place, to stop them.

[Ma Deuce]

And if the outcome is a law in place to address the problem before it's become a problem, that impresses me as being okay; if no one's yet demanded to vote while veiled, then no one can claim to have been infringed upon, if no one ever does make the demand then likewise no one will have been constrained, and if the time comes when someone does insist upon doing it, well, the law will already be in place, to stop them.

There were at least three incidents in the recent Quebec provincial election where a Muslim woman wanted to vote while wearing her veil. Despite a request by a parliamentary committee, the chief of Elections Canada refused to prevent them from doing so, saying it was not specifically forbidden and that he would not back down from that position unless Parliament changed the election law to specifically forbid it. Well, that's what's happening now.

[Metatwaddle]

No one ever mentions the fact that no Islamic group actually asked for the right to vote while veiled anyway, and that not one politician involved in this whole affair can even find any record of a single complaint to that effect.

In other words, I have to wonder if this whole controversy was actually created by somebody trying to add fuel to anti-Muslim sentiment.

This may come from a woman in FL who sued the state because they wouldn't allow her to get her drivers license photo taken with a veil on. She lost.

I know Canada and the States are close, but I really doubt that Canada would pass a law preemptively because of something that happened in the States that was only tangentially related (i.e. both situations involve women with veils, government and identification).

[Kanastrous]

Well, see above ^^.

Ma Deuce just offered examples of incidents which seem to demonstrate that it *is* a real-world issue.

So this is neither pre-emptive, nor Muslim-bashing. It's a direct response to a real problem.

Seems difficult to criticize that, at least, on its face.

[hongi]

As an underage kid who has never voted before, why do you need an uncovered face for voting?

[AniThyng]

I suspect that the fanatics are to shocked by the notion that their two legged livestock should have the right to vote to have formed any organized response yet.

Right, because every muslim woman that wears a veil is nothing but chattel married to a fanatic.

Well I suspect he thinks that muslim women can't of course think for themselves and come to the conclusion that they might wish to wear the veil and yet exercise thier right to vote - it's clearly not just the "fanatics" shocked by this notion - it's CJvR as well.

[Androsphinx]

As an underage kid who has never voted before, why do you need an uncovered face for voting?

Because only certain people are allowed to vote. Minors, non-citizens, certain types of criminal, and so on. In local and regional elections, only inhabitants of a certain area can vote. Generally, you need to prove your identity so that it can be checked that you are entitled to vote. Many countries (though not the UK, the last time I voted at least) require photo ID, which is rendered impossible by wearing a veil, and refusing to lift it to prove your identity.

[Glocksman]

Perhaps ironically, voter ID requirements are a hot button issue here in the US.
Until my state (Indiana) adopted an ID requirement, all you had to do was sign the register at the polling place.
No ID checks were required.

It's interesting to know that Canada requires* you to show ID at the polls.


*I could be wrong, but this is what the OP implies.

[hongi]

Because only certain people are allowed to vote. Minors, non-citizens, certain types of criminal, and so on. In local and regional elections, only inhabitants of a certain area can vote. Generally, you need to prove your identity so that it can be checked that you are entitled to vote. Many countries (though not the UK, the last time I voted at least) require photo ID, which is rendered impossible by wearing a veil, and refusing to lift it to prove your identity.

Ah, awesome. Funny how I learn more here than at school. Thanks!

As for the whole veil at the voting thing, I do have Muslim friends and as I understand it, most people agree that for the purposes of identification, the veil should be taken off. It seems to me that most of the Muslim community agrees, and a few idiots are going against the mainstream.

[brianeyci]

No one ever mentions the fact that no Islamic group actually asked for the right to vote while veiled anyway, and that not one politician involved in this whole affair can even find any record of a single complaint to that effect.

In other words, I have to wonder if this whole controversy was actually created by somebody trying to add fuel to anti-Muslim sentiment.

It obviously is. Isolated incidents do not require the eye of Parliament. It is obviously to appease Harper's fanbase who see an easy target. On CBC Newsworld, when the elections officer actually came out and said no I am not going to enforce the vaguely worded directive and stick to the letter of the law, a young Muslim woman representing a Muslim community group came out and said outright they don't give a fuck. In other words, a lot of Muslims are confused why the fuck Parliament is spending time on this. Almost all Muslim women unveil to vote anyway she said, so what the fuck.

Not to mention that voters can vote without visual identification through the mail anyway. The entire point of visual identification is to confirm the identity of the person, and that can be done any number of ways such as if the person comes with the voter registration card mailed to her. And if she doesn't, she can always swear an oath. But of course, they're more prone to lying being from an exotic foreign culture.

This is a miserable waste of time at best, and at worst Islamophobia. Before they tried to solve a non-existant problem they have to show a problem exists, and voter fraud from Muslim veiled women is not statistically significant to warrant time from the most powerful lawmaking body in the country.

[Stuart]

Right, because every muslim woman that wears a veil is nothing but chattel married to a fanatic.

The real problem is that the person who turns up at a polling booth wearing a burka or niquab may not be a woman at all. There have been a lot of cases of men using the burka and niquan as a means of evading identification (the most notorious was when Maulana Mohammad Abdul Aziz Ghazi, one of the leaders of the Lal Masjid Mosque in Pakistan tried to get through the cordon of troops surrounding the place by wearing a burka. Regrettably for him, he hadn't mastered the art of walking in high heels and that made him rather conspicuous. Also, he was the only one of the group of women who stayed quiet. Apparently it was a female Pakistani Army officer who got suspicious, did a search during which his beard fell out.)

Some other examples of the use of Islamic face-concealing garments for criminal purposes.

Jewelry theft in London: Two robbers, male and female, stole £200,000 worth of jewelry from the exclusive Ramot on Sloane Street in Knightsbridge by wearing burqas into the store. The robbers then flung open their garments to reveal guns, threatened the staff, took their keys to the display cabinets, locked the staff in a back room, and made off in a black Mercedes Benz getaway car with what Scotland Yard called "unique" gems. (March 7, 2002)

Murder suspect flees UK Mustaf Jama, 26, one of Britain's "most wanted" criminals for having murdered Police Constable Sharon Beshenivsky, 38, in November 2005, fled the country during the last week of 2005 and returned to his native Somalia. The picture of Britain's most wanted man, with 21 criminal convictions, had been circulated to every police force, port and airport in the country. He got through by disguising himself as a Muslim woman. Specifically, he adopted his sister's identity, using her passport and by wearing a niqab. Turns out, security personnel at London's Heathrow Airport made no attempt to match his face with her passport picture, even though the airport was on a heightened state of alert after the 7/7 terrorist attack. Indeed, the Times (London) writes that "British immigration officers rarely carry out a visual check to match a passport photograph with a departing female passenger's veiled face." It also adds that, in October 2006, "a male suspect in a major anti-terrorist investigation evaded capture in Britain for several days by dressing in a burka. He was eventually arrested and is awaiting trial."

UK Terrorism suspect escapes Closed-circuit television captured Yassin Omar, 26, of north London, on two occasions wearing a burqa. Omar is one of the six accused July 21, 2005 would-be bombers (he allegedly tried to set off a hydrogen peroxide bomb at Warren Street Underground station). The first time was on the day of the attempted bombings, when Omar (in the Daily Telegraph description) "dressed from head to toe in a black burka and carrying a brown handbag" is seen walking to Golders Green coach station and getting off a bus hours later at Digbeth, Birmingham.

The second time, he fled London under a burqa a day after the failed attacks. As the Times (London) account puts it: The 6ft 2in (188cm) figure of Yassin Omar, dressed from head to toe in a black burka, could be seen with a white handbag over his left arm as he made his way with a woman to a London coach station. Mr Omar boarded the 6.20pm National Express service to the Midlands, Woolwich Crown Court was told. Three hours later the bus arrived in Birmingham and he disembarked. He sat on a bench and waited until a red Nissan Sunny car pulled up, Max Hill, a junior prosecutor, said. He then got in and was driven away. It bears noting that, for reasons of verisimilitude, Omar shaved his arms and carried a white handbag. Giving testimony in court, Omar explained that he took one of his mother-in-law's black burqas because she "had lots of them" and put it on out of fear that the police would shoot him.

Afghanistan Afghan soldiers captured Mullah Mahmood, a Taliban leader and expert bomb-maker, as he tried to flee a massive NATO security operation dressed in a burqa. "Alert [Afghan] soldiers at this checkpoint spotted the oddity and quickly arrested him," explained a NATO press release. (Mar. 7, 2007)

Pakistan A male gunman wearing a burqa shot dead Masroor Alam, 35, a Sunni Islamist involved in several cases of sectarian killings, near his home in the remote tribal town of Dera Ismail Khan, north-west Pakistan, then fled on a motorbike. (Mar. 9, 2007)

Kenyan prostitutes hide under niqabs Now for the niqab hiding an altogether different sort of crime: Prostitution is illegal in Kenya's coastal port of Mombasa but, John Nene reports for the BBC, streetwalkers there have a history of donning the buibui (a niqab that shows more of the face). Wearing black buibuis brings two advantages, allowing them to mingle with other women and to melt into the night when the police turn up. As one streetwalker puts it, "I'm better off wearing the buibui so I look respectable. I can avoid arrest." Of course, respectable women disapprove. "I feel so embarrassed that sometimes I contemplate removing my buibui and throwing it away. The buibui has lost its respect," says one such woman, Mariam Salma.

In short, the burka and niquab have well-established reputations for being used to evade legal authorities and commit crimes. So why should voter fraud be any different? I'd go further and suggest that wearing burkas and niquabs (along with any other face-concealing garments) in any security-sensitive area should be illegal. All the more so since in many Moslem countries 'women' wearing such garments are routinely waved through security checkpoints.

[Ma Deuce]

It's interesting to know that Canada requires* you to show ID at the polls.

Yes, you are required to show identification at polls in Canada: One piece of photo ID is considered sufficient (I usually use my driver's licence, though as of 2005, health cards also have your photo on them, at least in Ontario).

[Lord Poe]

Perhaps ironically, voter ID requirements are a hot button issue here in the US.
Until my state (Indiana) adopted an ID requirement, all you had to do was sign the register at the polling place.
No ID checks were required.

Wow. I've always had to flash my ID. (Here in Schwarzeneggerland.)