Gandalf the white vs yoda AOTC

[Crown]

<snip, more usless evasion of the question, repetition and logical falacies; Gandalf > than Elfs, thus Gandalf greater than Yoda . Mostly though the same theme (which has been debunked already) that Gandalf was holding back, again.>

have already de-bunked this. He was using magic to set alite in-animate objects, so that he can throw them at animate objects, so he can burn them. Since he was already using magic, he has already revealed his presence. Your argument that he was holding back so as not to reveal his presence is flawed.

There where many magic users even some humans, none had a Maier's abilties, to use a small weak amount of magic would give nothing away, to up the scale would... it's a bit like holding a Candle up in the dark, yes it's lighter, but no where near the extent of starting up a Lighthouse, Gandalf is a fucking light house. So no you havn't debunked anything...

Bullshit.

Now you understand why Gandalf, listening to their growling and yelping, began to be dreadfully afraid, wizard though he was, and to feel that they were in a very bad place, and had not yet escaped at all.

<snip Gandalf tries to frighten them away with the pine-cones>

<snip Goblins arrive and start setting fire to the trees containing the Dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf and begin to taunt>

"Go away! little boys!" shouted Gandalf in answer. "It isn't bird-nesting time. Also naughty little boys that play with fire get punished." He said it to make them angry, and to show them he was not frightened of them - though of course he was, wizard though he was.

<snip more taunting, Gandalf's tree (you know the one where he was hidding in) catches fire>

Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightening, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped.

Just at that moment the Lord of the Eagles swept down from above, seized him in his talons, and was gone.

Points to note;

1. Gandalf was afraid of the wolves and Goblins.
2. Insted of choosing to directly light them up like torches, he rather goes the dubious option of trying to smite them with lightening

Yeah I see how this was real subtle and behind the scenes. Sure, no one would have noticed that . One word; OWNED

And so fuck, did he need to use his magic then to escape? No what is it about him that makes Eagles want to help him, we know they don't care much for the world at large, why does Shadowfax allow him to ride him, hmm more to gandalf than the abilty to set Acorns alite...

Bullshit. The Eagles weren't helping him because they knew it was him, they were just curious as to who they were, and what was happening. Read the fucken book.

Answered else where what are these propeties of Life you find as a coinvincing reason for resitence to Gandalfs Magic? So far no such reason has been presented except is living so it has some sort of resitence, we have no reason for it's existence but we'd like you to prove that living things don't have a resitence to the magic. (proof of a negative I believe) Rather prove that when facing a Maier power level creature Gandlaf's control over fire would have been useful in setting the creature on fire, if this can be presented then uyou have evidence until then SHUT THE FUCK UP. As it is CANNON fact from the writings of TOLKIEN that gandalf used his real full powers only at those instances. THIS is Cannon and no amount of whining about how it's Tolkien fanboy rantings will change the fact... So I am sick and Fucking tired of hearing the same old crap being spouted off, that basically you don't like a situation and it makes debates harde so obviously when the point is brought up it's fanboy rantings... and it's, tired old and babyish, and quite frankly I expected better from the people here.

The one example of where Gandalf set animate object on fire, in all of that grand standing and posing was where exactly? You make the claim you dipshit, the onus is on you to prove it. Your whole; he was trying to go unoticed, crap has been debunked. Twice.

Yes yes, Yawn, the abilty to deflect heat away from you is not going to do much good, if your fucking clothes are on fire, as strangely enough thats touching you body... As for the lightsaber, logically it would be made off a material that stays cool, that does not conduct the heat, since we know lightsaber's can be used by non Jedi...

You dumb fuck. Qui-Gon's hands were bare centimeters away from the molten blast door, his face was only a arms span away (closer since his arms were bent at the elbow) and he wasn't even singed! Hell every official evidence shows us that Anakin dropped into molten lava (we'll have to wait for confirmation on this) and the son-of-a-bitch survived. What the fuck is a few burning rags going to do to Yoda?

Even if the clothes were managed to set alite (which I still contest they won't be to begin with), did you see AotC, by the time Mace finishes his jump his robe is just smoking, but no longer burning. What you think that Yoda is going to just stand there, and ponder the fact that his clothes are alite. Hell if he wanted to, he could and then it would be buff Yoda vs Gandalf, since I have already demonstrated a Jedi's ability to channel heat away from themselves (Qui-Gon). Choose.

The difference of temperature between molten blast door material, which one assumes is made of similar material as the armor of a ship, and that of a fire burning on clothes ARE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE APART. Qui-Gon's hilt was right into the fucking blast door, his hands could not have been more than 20cm from the freakin thing. Is this a new theme with you, the inability to look at evidence and actually present it without distortion? WTF man?

Actually as a Numenor man I believe Arragor is in fact either older than 50 or has the youth of a 30 year old, as it is stated that one of the differance between a Numenoir man and a standard man is longer life, stronger bodies and minds etc.

Aragorn born in 2931, the LotR saga is over the year of 3018. Aragon is 87, but has the appearance or youth of a fifty year old. We were both right/wrong. (from the appendices)

Yes yes thats right God like beings older than Middle Earth have weak wills... yes makes complete sense dosn't it, no that argument is abuserd and I suspect you know it. Oh and how many times did Arragorn do it, and for how long, as I remeember he took one quick glimpse simply to Sauron the face of his enemy, and to distract him, never again did he look. I wonder why....

You lying sack of... why bother?

<snip, Aragorn and the rest say good bye to Eomer and Merry, Legolas and Gimli press Aragorn to tell them what happened last night>

"A struggle somewhat grimmer for my part than the battle of the Hornburg,' answered Aragorn. 'I have looked in the stone of Orthanc, my friends.'

<snip Gimli reacts badly>

'You forget to whom you speak,' said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. 'What do you fear that I should say to him? Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? Nay, Gimli,' he said in a soft voice, and the grimness left his face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. 'Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely.'

He drew a deep breath. 'It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wretched the Stone to my will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now. The eyes of Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden,; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isuldur and the Sword are revealed; for I showed the blade re-forged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.'

Points to note;

1. It was hardly one quick 'glimps'.
2. Aragorn managed to struggle with Sauron for the Stone, he won.
3. Saruman (another immortal wonder boy) lost in the same contest.
4. He stayed long enough to show not only, who he is, but what re-forged primitive metallic phallic object he was carrying with him.
5. Sauron was afraid of Aragorn!

Conclusion, once again you have been proven wrong.

I left this to last for a reason. Mainly because you are placing yourself on a perilous edge, and I will try and show you why this line of reasoning should be dropped right away. When Yoda uses the Force, wouldn't that percieved to be magic? Well let me put to you this way; Yoda uses the Force to lift an X-Wing (TESB), now science (or more acuratlly Newton's 3rd Law) tells us for every action there is an equal and opposit reaction. This means that as Yoda is 'holding up' the X-Wing, it's weight should be reacting on him. Now why wasn't Yoda squashed like a muppet-bug? To use your argument(s); it's magic and can't be limitted by science! Therefore, since it's magic, Yoda could just shift the entire Middle Earth into the nearest Star, and laugh his ass off! Do you see the obserdety in this claim? Hell I have cannon faucking evidence that Yoda could indeed to this; Yoda; Size matters not!

Well yes I do see the stupidity, from you... Read my arguments I have said magic has it's rules, Seperate to Sciences, so Yoda is limited from doing that, not BY FUCKING Science for the very reason you have pointed out that his use of the force in that scene breaks Newton's laws.... BUT DUE TO THE LAWS OF THE FORCE. Please read through what I have been saying all along, as i have had to repeat the same argument now countless times, and always the same Bloody counter comes up... but Science. Now you've just presented the same argument I've been saying all along.

And my response (besides laughing my ass off)? The ability to destroy a planet is INSIGNIFICANT next to the power of the Force. Yoda moves the Sun to Middle Earth, end of battle.

YAWN YAWN YAWN reuse of the argument above, as said he, as Cannon fact uses his power only when Approiate, he uses Maier powers against threats normal men cannot handle, Yawn that scene proves only that Goblins setting his tree on fire does not warrent the use of Maier power levels. power levels he displays during his fall from Khazid doom, 8 days of solid duelling, and more. One question could Yoda have duelled non stop for 8 Days, against the Balrog... and that was before he was gandalf the White.

Repetition, have already disproven, read above.

Another flaw in the whole argument, even assuming some life resistence to magic, Gandalf the White is more powerful than Gandalf the grey, so Gandalf the grey limits cannot be applied to Gandalf the White...

So you admit that Yoda owns Gandalf the Grey, great! Now if you would please be so kind as to show some evidence of what Gandalf the White can do, we can finish this. And by evidence I mean just that, no more bullshit forcing me to go digging through the fucking books to show that you are lying through your teeth.

[Crown]

I missed this one;

One question could Yoda have duelled non stop for 8 Days, against the Balrog... and that was before he was gandalf the White.

Well the appropriate responce is; Yoda wouldn't have fallen down to begin with! However I know you won't be able to deal with that so...

<snip, Car'das talks to Karrde and Shada about his ordeal with a Dark Jedi, and when they land on a backwater planet (Dagobah) they find a funny-looking little creature with big, pointed ears waiting for them (Yoda)>
An odd shiver ran through Car'das's thin body. "I won't try to describe their battle," he said in a low voice. "Even after forty-five years of thinking about it, I'm not sure I can. For nearly a day and a half the swamp blazed with fire and lightening and things I still don't understand. At the end of it the Dark Jedi was dead, disintegrating in a final, massive blaze of blue fire."
He took a shuddering breath. "None of my crew survived that battle. Not that there was much left of what they'd been anyway. I didn't suspect to survive either. But to my surprise, Yoda took it upon himself to nurse me back to life."

Points to note;

1. Yoda's battle was indiscribable to an educated and advanced participant of a technological society (ie not a medival dumb fuck)Man this is a petty point.
2. Yoda battles a Dark Jedi for nearly 1.5 days.
3. Unlike Gandalf and his battle with the Balrog, not only does Yoda survive, but he manages to nurse another back to health.
4. Finally to the intelligent person, it's not the duration of the combat that counts, but rather the intensity

Please note that this is the only example that I know of. I am sure that if I read some hack's writting, I could probably find longer levels of combat for you *coughKJADorsk81movingafleetofSD'scough*, but really what is the point?

[AdmiralKanos]

Post bug

[AdmiralKanos]

Post bug again (damn, this is irritating; maybe it has something to do with deleted posts).

[Crown]

Well either way it's up now..

[Skelron]

aperback pages 96 - 100;"]

Now you understand why Gandalf, listening to their growling and yelping, began to be dreadfully afraid, wizard though he was, and to feel that they were in a very bad place, and had not yet escaped at all.

<snip Gandalf tries to frighten them away with the pine-cones>

<snip Goblins arrive and start setting fire to the trees containing the Dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf and begin to taunt>

"Go away! little boys!" shouted Gandalf in answer. "It isn't bird-nesting time. Also naughty little boys that play with fire get punished." He said it to make them angry, and to show them he was not frightened of them - though of course he was, wizard though he was.

Okay I concede Gandalf the GREY was afraid of the Goblin's my bad, been a while I admit since I read the Hobbit, should reread it again, but that was Gandalf the GREY Note THE GREY we are TALKING ABOUT GANDLAF THE WHITE whose power was an order of magnatude HIGHER, using Gandalf the Grey to determine Gandalf the Whites power limits is like comparing in D+D a (For the sake of argument) a oh random level 10 Level mage and saying since this is what a tenth level can do, this shows that a Twentith level can only do the same things. Obviously this isn't the case even if it's the same mage who has risen those 10 levels since you last looked.

You dumb fuck. Qui-Gon's hands were bare centimeters away from the molten blast door, his face was only a arms span away (closer since his arms were bent at the elbow) and he wasn't even singed! Hell every official evidence shows us that Anakin dropped into molten lava (we'll have to wait for confirmation on this) and the son-of-a-bitch survived. What the fuck is a few burning rags going to do to Yoda?

My bad you are quite correct, it was late when I made that argument and I apoligise. HOwever can we cut out the personal imnsults, it dosn't get anyone anywhere, yes my language has slipped at times and for that I am sorry, but so far, and I may be wrong, I have stooped to personal insults, or done anything to warrent them. I will drop the Setting things on fire line in fact, it was never a key point to me, it simply got stuck on this, (Which I was using as an example initially, then got as stuck on the point as everyone else, when for me it was simply ment to be an example initially... I can be a little, Stubborn at times.) I was simply trying to point out that Science cannot be used to determine the limits of Magic, which I am sure if you thought about it, is logical sensible. (The same rule after all seems to apply to the Force, since it would seem impossible through science to Fall into a pit of Molten lava and survive, yet the force allows this. (Although obviously with limits, but then those limits come internally, By that I mean that a different Force user less powerful than Anakin might still have died from the wounds. If you see what I mean

Actually as a Numenor man I believe Arragor is in fact either older than 50 or has the youth of a 30 year old, as it is stated that one of the differance between a Numenoir man and a standard man is longer life, stronger bodies and minds etc.

Aragorn born in 2931, the LotR saga is over the year of 3018. Aragon is 87, but has the appearance or youth of a fifty year old. We were both right/wrong. (from the appendices)
[/Quote] Aye True enough. (I'll lay my cards on the table, I must reread LoTR soon, some of my memory is getting foggy, but that seems about right.

<snip, Aragorn and the rest say good bye to Eomer and Merry, Legolas and Gimli press Aragorn to tell them what happened last night>

"A struggle somewhat grimmer for my part than the battle of the Hornburg,' answered Aragorn. 'I have looked in the stone of Orthanc, my friends.'

<snip Gimli reacts badly>

'You forget to whom you speak,' said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. 'What do you fear that I should say to him? Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? Nay, Gimli,' he said in a soft voice, and the grimness left his face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. 'Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely.'

He drew a deep breath. 'It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wretched the Stone to my will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now. The eyes of Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden,; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isuldur and the Sword are revealed; for I showed the blade re-forged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.'

Points to note;

1. It was hardly one quick 'glimps'.
2. Aragorn managed to struggle with Sauron for the Stone, he won.
3. Saruman (another immortal wonder boy) lost in the same contest.
4. He stayed long enough to show not only, who he is, but what re-forged primitive metallic phallic object he was carrying with him.
5. Sauron was afraid of Aragorn!

[/Quote]
Point of order, I believe Shaurmon's fall was longer than one night looking at the stone, he spent many months or years I believe, and slowly lost the battle of wills, It was not the same as Arragorn looking into it one night, no matter how long he looked.

Two Of course Sauron was fucking scared of the heir of the man that defeated him last time, whose sword was responsible for his current weakened condition, in middle Earth Legaices have power, and nothing was more powerful a threat to Sauron than the Sword that was used to take his ring from him... Also Arragorn even points out that Sauron has not regained his full power, until he gets that ring he not fully himself, weaker, physically and possibly mentally, enough so that the TRUE heir to the Seeing stone can wrench it from his control. (Another advantage in Middle Earth he was the man who was suppossed to use the Stone, meaning it falls under his control easier than it would for other's. It's all the rules of Middle Earth Magic I was talking about much much earlier, as they are uncovered you can determine how things will react that are of a magic nature.

These are the limits you and Wong are looking for, they come not from science but from the laws established by Tolkien in this case. I never argued no limits, (Unfortunatly I admit at first it may have looked this way... My mistake))

quote] And my response (besides laughing my ass off)? The ability to destroy a planet is INSIGNIFICANT next to the power of the Force. Yoda moves the Sun to Middle Earth, end of battle.

Yep it would be if he has ever displayed this level of control. If you don't think that Yoda would be burnt up like a tosty critter as well. I never even bothered responding to this argument before yet here it is repeated. I got slammed for appearing to be arguing no limits, when you do the same thing, yet will likely end up being congratulated for this line...

However I suspect you know that it is a silly point, that quote can come to mean many things, not the least being that Vader was saying the abiltys he have are more useful than the Deathstar where he can be a little more precise the Deathstar simply randomnly destroys... (although the Emporer (In the EU) does show similar power levels to back this claim up, I suspect Anakin could have as well. Yoda has not shown enough power to destroy worlds. Powerful the little fella is npo doubt but powerful in the light he is, which dosn't go into the randomn destruction gig.

Another flaw in the whole argument, even assuming some life resistence to magic, Gandalf the White is more powerful than Gandalf the grey, so Gandalf the grey limits cannot be applied to Gandalf the White...

So you admit that Yoda owns Gandalf the Grey, great! Now if you would please be so kind as to show some evidence of what Gandalf the White can do, we can finish this. And by evidence I mean just that, no more bullshit forcing me to go digging through the fucking books to show that you are lying through your teeth.

having reread that bit I don't see where I admit anything, I simply said that evidence refering to Gandalf the Grey's limits cannot be applied to Gandalf the White. Where is the confession... Still don't see it, but maybe I'm missing it could you point it out to me, what lines gave you this impression? and no this isn't an evasion I'll search Tommorow for anything I can find that gives us examples of what Gandalf the white can do.

[Crown]

Just wanted to apologise for my-errr flame-atory language... You don't deserve to be flamed outright. After all it's just as possible that you aren't remembering correctly rather than outright lying.. I hope I didn't offend too much.

[Skelron]

Nah I'm in a strange mood tonight anyway, maybe over sensitive. Shoiuld remember thats part of this places style when you think someone is lying in a debate. (Must remember Dorkstar.) I was on the whole trying to use evidence already presented, and my foggy memory, and got lost on what my point initially was ment to be. (Trying to defend something that was possibly the wrong position, to make a point about the use of magic. Look I like the idea of debating how magic should be treated in debates here, I think it would be a good debate, If I agree to drop this debate, I think on balance the problem with this is that while Yoda might be able to defeat Gandalf the grey, not enough information exists on Gandalf the White to actually debate it. (Grey has other works by Tolkien, but as far as I know Gandalf the white only appears from the Two Towers onwards. and rarely uses his powers then, due to this we can't determine his limits, and so we are forced to draw on Grey's limits, and they don't work, and lead unfortunatly to the circular argument, that I have been spouting, of 'but thats Grey's limits....')

Instead I would like to start a new debate on the nature of Magic in debates, and how it should be treated. (it's one i feel more confident of my knowledge of for one thing, While I it may be many years since I've read LotR from cover to cover, I've devoured Fantasy books, and the idea of magic since I was in Primary School. (About when I was 9 years old or so, I'm now 22)

This was actually what I wanted to debate mainly in the first place, but got sidetracked...

[Crown]

That's alright, personally I would stay very far away from the magic vs science debate (Mainly because I believe that the One Ring can only be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom and nowhere else, which I suspect Mike will bitch-slap me if I ever utter it in a debate (and perhaps he is right to).). But I agree it is hard to debate Gandalf the White, since we do know that he is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, but we don't know the limits or feats he has used...

*wipes tear from his eye*

Agree to disagree?

[Skelron]

That's alright, personally I would stay very far away from the magic vs science debate (Mainly because I believe that the One Ring can only be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom and nowhere else, which I suspect Mike will bitch-slap me if I ever utter it in a debate (and perhaps he is right to).). But I agree it is hard to debate Gandalf the White, since we do know that he is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, but we don't know the limits or feats he has used...

*wipes tear from his eye*

Agree to disagree?

Agree to disagree.