Leopard is here!

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-10-27 01:44am

Just installed Leopard, and it is awesome.

Safari is irritating me because it's actually USEFUL. The text search function is SPECTACULAR, the ability to make widgets makes Dashboard actually useful to me, and it's blindingly fast, launching easily 3-4 times faster than FireFox and giving me less problems. I really don't want it to take me away from FireFox but it's so much faster that I find myself liking FireFox less...
Dashboard is much faster.
Mail is also much faster. Strangely, some of my accounts were disabled after the upgrade, but I went into the preferences and checked the enable box and they started working again.

I can't run time machine until I reformat my external drive for HFS (it's FAT32 now), but I've got 100 GB used on that external drive out of 250...I was thinking of splitting it (since Leopard allows for on-the-fly partitioning) to 125 GB and 125 GB, moving everything from the FAT32 to HFS, then wiping the FAT32 and expanding the HFS partition. Will that work?

Anyone else have it yet?

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-10-27 02:35am

Does it have full support for dual-booting? I never liked OSX, but Leopard has sounded like a decent OS for a while. Apple can't run the applications I need (they are very specific) but if it has excellent dual-boot ability then I'd happily be excited for my next computer down the line. Now I just need them to make an apple that I can hide inside a nice black Thermaltake case.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2007-10-27 03:46am

Yes, it has Boot Camp. Parallels and VMWare Fusion also are good virtualization solutions.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-10-27 01:57pm

Covenant wrote:Does it have full support for dual-booting? I never liked OSX, but Leopard has sounded like a decent OS for a while. Apple can't run the applications I need (they are very specific) but if it has excellent dual-boot ability then I'd happily be excited for my next computer down the line. Now I just need them to make an apple that I can hide inside a nice black Thermaltake case.

OS X has had very good dual-booting for a while (the last year?) but Leopard makes it even better.

Apple supplies Windows drivers and adds some functionality to Windows letting you do stuff change the default OS in Control Panel. It's pretty easy to switch OSes.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-27 05:17pm

How can you not like OSX but think Leopard sounds good? It *is* OSX. How could you hate Tiger but want to use Leopard? *brain explodes*

I can get a new laptop now, at least. I wonder how much a group licence costs in AU, and I'm giggling at the 'zomg OSX is so teh expensive lol pay for service packs lol' when Leopard is AU$150, and a decent version of Vista is AU$400.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2007-10-27 05:42pm

Praxis wrote:I can't run time machine until I reformat my external drive for HFS (it's FAT32 now), but I've got 100 GB used on that external drive out of 250...I was thinking of splitting it (since Leopard allows for on-the-fly partitioning) to 125 GB and 125 GB, moving everything from the FAT32 to HFS, then wiping the FAT32 and expanding the HFS partition. Will that work?

No. To do on-the-fly partitioning, you need to reformat the drive to have a GUID partition table. Right now it probably has an MBR. And I don't know if GUID drives support FAT32 partitions.

I'm actually kind of jealous of all the people getting to use Leopard for the first time. I've been using it for months, and when you're see it from an internal engineering perspective, you get a little jaded because you see all the nitty-gritty details and problems. The thing is you can never predict which of those will manifest themselves into problems for the user and which are just irritating to your sense of theoretical beauty.

But so far, the reception seems great, and I'm glad. I knew that it would be better-received than Vista (honestly, not a hard trick to pull off), but I think it's one hell of an operating system with a lot to offer beyond the headline features, and the build shipping to customers is very solid. Everyone at Apple has been busting their asses on it for a long time, so enjoy.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-10-27 06:06pm

Actually, I bought Leopard last night, and I have to say, I'm pleasantly suprised. My experience with Tiger on my OS X was that it was a miserable piece of crap, an abomination of an operating system (honestly, I preferred using Windows ME to it), so I was eager to see if Apple had actually fixed these problems with Leopard, and indeed, they did.

I'm extremely impressed by how well Leopard performs under heavy load (this was, IMO, the biggest problem with Tiger), certain ergonomic improvements to the GUI, and improvements to Safari in terms of performance and stability. Also, the theming is much more refined and less schizophrenic than that of Tiger; instead of about five different styles of win deco, I've seen only two in the default install, and the overall look , and feel is softer and more subtle.

I'm also updating the other OS on my Mac Mini, Linux, from Ubuntu Feisty to Sabayon (or possibly Ubuntu Gutsy, although personally I'm not that much of an enthusiast of the Ubuntus).

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2007-10-27 09:47pm

For the record, Camino has always loaded far faster for me than Firefox, and I've liked Camino far more than Safari.

I'm still using Tiger, and likely won't update for a while, despite how sexy Leopard sounds. I'm still using my PPC Powerbook, so I'll wait to get a new laptop (if I get this job in Sunnyvale, that is - *deep breath*) with Leopard pre-installed.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-10-27 11:17pm

I tried Camino once, and immediately dismissed it as a crappy reskinned version of Firefox, although it wouldn't suprise me at all if Camino is more carefully compiled for the OS X platform.

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2007-10-27 11:25pm

RThurmont wrote:I tried Camino once, and immediately dismissed it as a crappy reskinned version of Firefox, although it wouldn't suprise me at all if Camino is more carefully compiled for the OS X platform.

Well, essentially you're right. It is a stripped-down version of Firefox that doesn't theme (without an external program) and doesn't have extensions. However, it is carefully compiled for OS X, and moves quite quickly as a result.

EDIT: I always mess up the "its."

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-10-27 11:34pm

Camino also fails to display some websites that display correctly in Firefox, further negating its usefulness IMO.

Also, IMO, on Tiger anyway, Opera was very poorly integrated into the UI, which was a dissappointment, as under normal conditions, Opera is, by far and away, my preferred browser.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-10-28 02:17am

Stark wrote:How can you not like OSX but think Leopard sounds good? It *is* OSX. How could you hate Tiger but want to use Leopard? *brain explodes*

Maybe it's just the apple fandom making it sound good, but it did seem to be advertised as a significant upgrade to OSX, which I found icky. If it's basically just OSX with knobs on then to hell with it, but I'd really like to be able to run both OS's from the same computer, and microsoft doesn't seem to be offering me a way to run apple stuff very successfully on this platform. I've just never liked the apple UI to date though, so if it's more of the same, I'll have to pass. Thanks for dashing my hopes, meanie!

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-28 02:33am

So use bootcamp/virtualisation? If you don't like the OSX interface, I'm not sure why you'd even think about using Leopard: any picture of Leopard shows that it's essentially the same, with different searchs and Finder etc. I'd prefer using OSX to Vista, but I'm not buying those nutbar Apple desktops to do it. Laptop = OSX, desktop = Vista.

Seriously, it sounds like you used OSX once, didn't like it, then heard some 'rar rar Leopard' marketing and decided it was totally different. You can find out about all the changes with a trival websearch, so it puzzles me that you'd have this attitude.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-10-28 02:47am

It's actually the opposite--I used OSX a lot and hated it, but I heard a few things about Leopard and was hoping it would be quite good. This was mostly hoping, as I keep extending the olive branch in Apple's direction hoping for some sort of reconcilliation. ;D

And yes, while it looks the same, I though it was--ah well, nevermind, I was apparently just misinformed. I did hear the "rar rar Leopard" and decide it was totally different. I've attempted to search for it but it's a lot about wierd things I don't want to use, like all their crazy proprietary chat and shit. The TimeMachine option is nice, and CoreAnimation would be nice (if I didn't use aftereffects for animation anyway).

Basically, if I need to move next-gen at some point, I can either go Vista--which seems dangerous from what has been said, or Leopard. I was really hoping to have the choice be a little less woeful.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-10-28 03:17am

Covenant wrote:
Stark wrote:How can you not like OSX but think Leopard sounds good? It *is* OSX. How could you hate Tiger but want to use Leopard? *brain explodes*
Maybe it's just the apple fandom making it sound good, but it did seem to be advertised as a significant upgrade to OSX, which I found icky. If it's basically just OSX with knobs on then to hell with it, but I'd really like to be able to run both OS's from the same computer, and microsoft doesn't seem to be offering me a way to run apple stuff very successfully on this platform. I've just never liked the apple UI to date though, so if it's more of the same, I'll have to pass. Thanks for dashing my hopes, meanie!

Okay, I still don't get what you're going on about; Apple has had Boot Camp available for a YEAR. My Mac was already dual-booted before I installed Leopard. However, Leopard DOES add some enhanced functionality.

I've got Windows installed on a separate partition and I can choose to restart in Windows at any time. I've also got Parallels (similar to VMWare) installed and Windows running on a Virtual Machine.

I came up with this cool little solution in Leopard; I run Windows in a VM in full screen in one of my Spaces. So I press Ctrl and right arrow, and I'm in Windows! Ctrl left, and I'm in Mac OS X. It's pretty cool.

like all their crazy proprietary chat and shit.

What proprietary chat? iChat works over AIM and can chat with standard AIM clients on Windows.

CoreAnimation would be nice (if I didn't use aftereffects for animation anyway).

I think you misunderstand the usage of CoreAnimation. It's not an application for creating animation like AfterEffects, it's a tool built in to the OS that can be used in applications. An API for devs. Essentially, any app can make use of flashy 3D effects as they will in their windows seamlessly and smoothly. That means a lot of Leopard animations move a lot more smoothly.

Basically, if I need to move next-gen at some point, I can either go Vista--which seems dangerous from what has been said, or Leopard. I was really hoping to have the choice be a little less woeful.

So dual boot Leopard and Windows XP. Or heck, Leopard and Vista.

It's actually the opposite--I used OSX a lot and hated it, but I heard a few things about Leopard and was hoping it would be quite good. This was mostly hoping, as I keep extending the olive branch in Apple's direction hoping for some sort of reconcilliation. ;D

What did you hate about it?
Apple's redesigned the GUI and redesigned Finder, if that's what bothered you. Quick Look makes it MUCH easier to browse through files without launching the accompanying app, and heck even watching an entire movie without ever launching a video player.

Leopard feels faster and snappier, and even all my apps feel snappier.

What specifically was so bad?

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-10-28 04:22am

Well, I can't say in specific. Some things were just me not knowing the OS well enough--I've been using Windows for an extremely long time, but used OSX only for a half a year--and those would get less and less frustrating as time went on. And some were actual legitimate frustrations, like the fact that I hate the entire 'finder' system, really dislike the universal top menu bar, and found a bunch of other little minor things now-and-then aggrivating. Basically, while I enjoyed moving from Old Windows to Windows XP, I did not enjoy working with OSX at all.

I did like Expose though. That made my life so much easier.

Like I've said before, this is really a matter of personal preference, with a few isolated gripes. And while I know that OSX has Bootcamp, I never said it didn't--that's just one of the reasons I was interested in it, since I disliked OSX, but if Leopard has a better feel, then I could get the Bootcamp going on a system I don't detest. And don't accuse me of being a luddite Stark, you'll be pleased to know I actually purchased a cellphone this year! (joke, but I did) I actually use it too.

The big issue is that if I moved to Leopard as my basic system, I'm going to have to move to apple hardware as well, which I don't like very much. I don't like laptops, so this would be a new desktop, and that's a big issue. If Leopard isn't really a big huge change from OSX then I'd basically just be running Windows on a macbox, and that's kinda deranged, since there aren't many apple exclusives that I need.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-10-28 04:31am

Oh, I see what people mean about my first post. I was asking if it was essentially 'native' support so that it runs just as well as a PC. I knew OSX had the capacity to dual boot, but I wanted to know if it was also present in Leopard, and to what degree of simulation. For all I knew they hadn't quite done that yet. I need to use windows for several applications that the apple doesn't have equal-quality software for, and I'd be hamstringing myself to upgrade to a machine that can't do it right.

Executor32 · Post by **Executor32** » 2007-10-28 05:48am

Dual-booting Windows and OSX on a Mac is no different than dual-booting Windows and Linux on a regular PC, i.e. Windows runs natively on the hardware and not as a virtual machine.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-10-28 01:43pm

Covenant wrote:Well, I can't say in specific. Some things were just me not knowing the OS well enough--I've been using Windows for an extremely long time, but used OSX only for a half a year--and those would get less and less frustrating as time went on. And some were actual legitimate frustrations, like the fact that I hate the entire 'finder' system, really dislike the universal top menu bar, and found a bunch of other little minor things now-and-then aggrivating. Basically, while I enjoyed moving from Old Windows to Windows XP, I did not enjoy working with OSX at all.

I did like Expose though. That made my life so much easier.

Well, Finder has been completely overhauled, if that helps, and Spaces means Expose is even more useful than ever before. And the whole GUI is a lot more consistent.

Also, Quick Look is the greatest thing I have ever seen.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-10-28 02:53pm

Basically, if I need to move next-gen at some point, I can either go Vista--which seems dangerous from what has been said, or Leopard. I was really hoping to have the choice be a little less woeful.

So dual boot Leopard and Windows XP. Or heck, Leopard and Vista.

Or better yet, use Linux (or perhaps dual boot all three). Though I am impressed by OS X, the fact is, IMO, its on a par with Linux at this point on a feature-per-feature basis, so from my point there is no sense in shelling out for Apple hardware when a free alternative exists that is just as good. I primarily purchased Leopard out of a desire to recoup some of my investment in Mac software (which was useless under Tiger, in that Tiger's terrible performance made it very difficult to actually get any work done). However, I will say, I am geniunely impressed; prior to the release of Leopard and the iPhone, I was beginning to be of the impression that Apple actually lacked the internal capability to do a decent operating system.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2007-10-28 05:27pm

RThurmont wrote:However, I will say, I am geniunely impressed; prior to the release of Leopard and the iPhone, I was beginning to be of the impression that Apple actually lacked the internal capability to do a decent operating system.

Out of curiosity, are you trying to goad me or something? You're laying on the back-handed compliments pretty thick here.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-28 05:37pm

I wouldn't stress, Durandal: his frothing hyperbole ensures nobody has taken him seriously for months. Even among my bespectacled Linux evangelists he's a laughingstock.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2007-10-28 05:54pm

Linux can be good, even brilliant if you've got the knowledge, time and dedication to get it all working. Unfortunately the vast majority of people don't have the knowledge, and while most of the remainder are clued-up enough to make it work, they also need an OS that "just works" without much fuss, and that simply isn't Linux.

Back on the subject of Leopard, I wasn't too sure about whether it was worth upgrading based on the feature list, but after seeing the demo videos on the Apple site and hearing the consensus, I think I'll take the jump. It also helps that I can get a nearly £30 discount while I'm still in uni.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-28 06:28pm

How does Apple work it's support for older versions? Will they continue to release updates for Tiger?

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-28 06:43pm

Well, they released updates for Panther well after Tiger came out, so I don't see why they wouldn't for Tiger.

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