Force Ghosts and Clone Bodies

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Post by Kurgan »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Kurgan wrote:The Clone Emperor is an idiot. Why would he want to possess a baby? He's crazy as well as stupid!

But, then again, he's a comic book villain, so what should we expect? ;)
We know they have age-acceleration biotechnology and gene therapy. Besides, just because your only option sucks doesn't mean its worse than death.
Considering he has his choice of targets, it's idiotic to assume the form of a baby and leave himself completely helpless.

Isn't he literally surrounded by underlings who are just waiting for the chance to usurp him? "Oops, the 'Emperor' needs a diaper change, I guess I'm in charge now!"

Or should we imagine some hilarious story in which a little baby is throwing around lightning and babbling orders in babytalk through a universal translator?

Seriously, the dude has his choice of targets, it's pretty ridiculous for him to set his sights on a friggin' infant. What a moron... no wonder the good guys keep beating him!
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Kurgan wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Kurgan wrote:The Clone Emperor is an idiot. Why would he want to possess a baby? He's crazy as well as stupid!

But, then again, he's a comic book villain, so what should we expect? ;)
We know they have age-acceleration biotechnology and gene therapy. Besides, just because your only option sucks doesn't mean its worse than death.
Considering he has his choice of targets, it's idiotic to assume the form of a baby and leave himself completely helpless.

Isn't he literally surrounded by underlings who are just waiting for the chance to usurp him? "Oops, the 'Emperor' needs a diaper change, I guess I'm in charge now!"

Or should we imagine some hilarious story in which a little baby is throwing around lightning and babbling orders in babytalk through a universal translator?

Seriously, the dude has his choice of targets, it's pretty ridiculous for him to set his sights on a friggin' infant. What a moron... no wonder the good guys keep beating him!
What choices? You've obviously ignored the entire discussion here in favor of one of your childish rants.
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Post by Alexian Cale »

I will admit, things had gone to pot for Palpatine at that point. He'd be at the mercy of his dark side lieutenants.
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If you must use a baby, how about this... have one yourself!

Post by Kurgan »

What choices? You've obviously ignored the entire discussion here in favor of one of your childish rants.
Your personal beefs are boring and irrelevant. Whether the story writers desired to make the villain seem like an insane idiot or not, the result is the same... he ends up looking like an insane idiot. If you'd rather believe he gambled big and lost, feel free.


Any evil overlord whose ultimate plan is to implant his consciousness into a BABY, no matter how amazing that baby might one day be, is a moron, and deserves to lose.


As it turns out he takes over the wrong person and dies. If Palpatine was really so amazing and powerful he should have foreseen how foolish a plan this was and taken over some other non-clone. He had plenty of supposedly loyal followers whose bodies were not decaying. But then Palpatine apparently learned nothing from his previous failings at seeing the future to make his insane plans. Far from being a calculating and wise overlord, the conclusion I must draw is that the character is indeed "mad" in a very real sense.
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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Re: Force Ghosts and Clone Bodies

Post by Crown »

FOG3 wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Only Palpatine possessed the ability of life transfer/transfer essence, that we are aware of.
I'm pretty sure the Thrawn Trilogy, or perhaps Darksaber made it clear Palpatine learned that trick with a doohickey of some sort from someone else, who I seem to recall being described as a Jedi Master.

After facing off against Mace Windu, rational and Palpatine aren't really on the same page anymore.
Darksabre. It has to be Darksabre, I'm almost certain of it*. There are two examples;
  • Callista making it known to Luke that what she did, 'storing' herself into the computer system was a technique she was taught by her Master. It's made out to be a well known trick, as the Master emphasised that it should be only done under extreme duress and circumstances, as it's not the 'Jedi way' or some such idiocy like that.
  • The Bevel flashbacks, when he's first tortured, killed, and then ressed in his new clone body, the Emperor mentions, that he hopes that everything is working okay, as the Jedi Master he stole that technique from wasn't exactly forthcoming with the minor details.
I don't have the book (might be at home 16, 000km away), so if anyone wants to put themselves through the unenviable task of flipping through that piece of shit to find the quotes, feel free to do so.



*The first point, the Callista point, could be from the book she was first introduced, which the name escapes me now, in fact it probably is.
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Re: If you must use a baby, how about this... have one yours

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Kurgan wrote:
What choices? You've obviously ignored the entire discussion here in favor of one of your childish rants.
Your personal beefs are boring and irrelevant. Whether the story writers desired to make the villain seem like an insane idiot or not, the result is the same... he ends up looking like an insane idiot. If you'd rather believe he gambled big and lost, feel free.
You said you knew he could inhabit his hierarchs or the Ysanna tribesmen just as easily as Anakin Solo and without consequence. Given that he hatched the concept to capture the latter, yet failed either to inhabit them directly or to generate a clone of them fast enough suggests that it turned out to not be as viable an option as he had hoped. If you are suggesting this is wrong, he could quickly grow viable clones from them without consequence or could inhabit them directly POST EVIDENCE. The most parsimonious explanation was he didn't because he couldn't. Don't like it - too fucking bad. I'm not here to listen to you grind your ax.
As it turns out he takes over the wrong person and dies. If Palpatine was really so amazing and powerful he should have foreseen how foolish a plan this was and taken over some other non-clone. He had plenty of supposedly loyal followers whose bodies were not decaying. But then Palpatine apparently learned nothing from his previous failings at seeing the future to make his insane plans. Far from being a calculating and wise overlord, the conclusion I must draw is that the character is indeed "mad" in a very real sense.
Prove any of these were viable options. Given HE HIMSELF was obviously well and thinking enough to collect the Ysanna yet did not inhabit them suggests otherwise, and is the most parsimonious explanation. Prove your presumptions, don't just repeat them and expect me to nod like a retard.

What, do people lose the ability to think or argue when they step into PSW? Or is it just full of kiddies afraid of the real forum? Jesus.
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Post by Kurgan »

Is Palpatine only able to possess brainwashed slaves, young children and blank-slate clones? Perhaps I don't understand (or misunderstood) the capabilities of his soul-transfering Sith magick.

It is being suggested that Palpatine only did things that made sense or were his only option? It seems pretty obvious to me that he's an egomaniacal risk-taker and his behavior more and more mirrors that of your stereotypical comic book villain... flawed and/or irrational, so that the heroes can win.

We could say he's just written that way for dramatic purposes, which is the truth...

If we take SOD then that makes him an idiot/insane, unless he was simply destined by the Force to fail...


But possessing a baby seems like the worst possible thing he could set out to do. Even possessing some small animal would be preferable, because then at least he could more easily escape before he found a more suitable target. Or, there's that technology that exists wherein a brain can be implanted in a droid body or a ship... he could have used something like that to keep alive. That sort of thing existed in the EU long before General Grievous, but now there's even less reason to suggest he couldn't do that, unless you buy the BS that your midichlorians don't work unless your body is "all meat" (in which case, just patch flesh onto the endoskeleton, Terminator style?).
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Kurgan wrote:Is Palpatine only able to possess brainwashed slaves, young children and blank-slate clones? Perhaps I don't understand (or misunderstood) the capabilities of his soul-transfering Sith magick.

It is being suggested that Palpatine only did things that made sense or were his only option? It seems pretty obvious to me that he's an egomaniacal risk-taker and his behavior more and more mirrors that of your stereotypical comic book villain... flawed and/or irrational, so that the heroes can win.
So your evidence to support your conclusion he makes stupid choices is that you interpret canon using your theory that he makes stupid choices as an egomaniacal risk-taker. Right. Let me know when you've learned why circular reasoning isn't meaningful.
But possessing a baby seems like the worst possible thing he could set out to do. Even possessing some small animal would be preferable, because then at least he could more easily escape before he found a more suitable target.
So now you're just making shit up and blaming the fact it didn't happen on the presumption your theory is correct?
Or, there's that technology that exists wherein a brain can be implanted in a droid body or a ship... he could have used something like that to keep alive.
And this would allow him to continue using the Force how?
That sort of thing existed in the EU long before General Grievous, but now there's even less reason to suggest he couldn't do that, unless you buy the BS that your midichlorians don't work unless your body is "all meat" (in which case, just patch flesh onto the endoskeleton, Terminator style?).
I'm not obligated to disprove any and all bullshit you magically invented by eating alphabet soup then pointing your fetid asshole in the general direction of the forum.

Let me hold your hand like a small child so you won't hurt yourself:

In order to prove your theory he was unreasonable or irrational you must establish that he had better, feasible options he knowingly chose not to use. Evidence accepted includes canonical documents, not some fanon bullshit you just invented and asserted. You're asserting Palpatine changed and therefore the burden of proof lies on you. Its not parsimonious or logical to invent endless corollaries that I must disprove. They must be substantive before I must even acknowledge them.

I repeat. There's no evidence that these mechanisms exist, much less would apply or be feasible, desirable alternatives to a rational person in Palpatine's circumstances. The null hypothesis is that Palpatine of EE is the same Palpatine he's always been, only know he must deal with critical failure of his clone line and despite coming up with the idea to capture the Ysanna, he does not use them. The null hypothesis and parsimony suggests this alternative was not as promising as had initially been thought, and that Anakin was the only rational solution left. You must prove the other solutions were knowingly feasible in order to substantiate your alternative hypothesis that Palpatine is fundamentally irrational.

Now, should responsible authors have shown explicitly Palpatine jumping from one burned out-corpse ofhis heirarchs to another or likewise amongst Ysanna tribesmen or amongst clones thereof while his clone is placed in stasis until its obvious only Anakin will do and then re-inhabit his clone and attempt to possess him. Its lazy writing.

However, you're still making a hypothesis that one of the known qualities of this analysis - Palpatine's personality and character - changed. You must substantiate the claim he changed, and if you cannot prove it with canonical evidence, you must abandon the hypothesis. That nothing changed is the null hypothesis and remains assumed true until proven otherwise.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Kurgan wrote:Is Palpatine only able to possess brainwashed slaves, young children and blank-slate clones? Perhaps I don't understand (or misunderstood) the capabilities of his soul-transfering Sith magick.
It's game mechanics, but it may be all we have to go on. The Darkside Sourcebook states that someone with a high enough will power can bounce the user of that skill out, and he has to try again on a new target, but never even attempt possess someone he failed on before, if he fails enough times his essence is scattered throughout the galaxy and he ceases to exist. As soulless a clone or a baby has little or no will power, this may be the reason they chose them.
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Post by Kurgan »

So he could say, leap into a Stormtrooper?



Also, since Palpatine can "empower" people with the Dark Side of the Force, doesn't that imply that whoever he possesses need not have high force ability (or even be force sensitive at all) for him to retain power once he's inhabiting them? Certainly "infusion of the Force" is part of the EU, via magick tech at least.
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Kurgan wrote:So he could say, leap into a Stormtrooper?

Also, since Palpatine can "empower" people with the Dark Side of the Force, doesn't that imply that whoever he possesses need not have high force ability (or even be force sensitive at all) for him to retain power once he's inhabiting them? Certainly "infusion of the Force" is part of the EU, via magick tech at least.
Not all Force sensitives are produced equally. Imply? Its never been proven to work, its only your supposition that its plausible. That its never happened suggests there are practical problems. You can't just decide something must be feasible, especially when we don't mechanistically understand the Force.
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Post by Terralthra »

Mara Jade stated in the Thrawn trilogy that the Emperor made her more powerful in the Force, and when he died, her ability went downhill as well. Who knows the actual effects, since she is shown as a fully powerful Jedi later in the EU chronology.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Kurgan wrote:So he could say, leap into a Stormtrooper?
He could leap into anyone, but I didn't actually mean the Stormtrooper kind of clone, I meant soulless was a qualifier. If you notice, when Palpy's soul wasn't in them, his clones were little more than vegetables.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

General Schatten wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Is Palpatine only able to possess brainwashed slaves, young children and blank-slate clones? Perhaps I don't understand (or misunderstood) the capabilities of his soul-transfering Sith magick.
It's game mechanics, but it may be all we have to go on. The Darkside Sourcebook states that someone with a high enough will power can bounce the user of that skill out, and he has to try again on a new target, but never even attempt possess someone he failed on before, if he fails enough times his essence is scattered throughout the galaxy and he ceases to exist. As soulless a clone or a baby has little or no will power, this may be the reason they chose them.
The DSSB Transfer Essence skill differs from Palpatine's essence transference, and you still must inhabit Force sensitives.

Also, the "empowering" of non-Force sensitives typically involves taking that power from somewhere - the Sith Master skill Palpatine uses absorbs his minions into his own will whilst empowering them, essentially they get a loan of Force power at the donor's expense while their alive and exercising it. Likewise for Reborn, who stole it from long-dead Jedi or Sith spirits. You have to rob Peter to pay Paul, so I doubt the empowering skill would continue to work after Palpatine died; they depend on him for that power. He just can't flip the Force sensitivity switch in someone to "on" and it stays that wa.
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"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The DSSB Transfer Essence skill differs from Palpatine's essence transference, and you still must inhabit Force sensitives.
Unless you are aware of some errata I'm not then please present it, you could also show that it's different from Palpatines, Palpatine doesn't seem to like taking risks and a mindless clone or a baby with barely any sense of self would be very weak-willed and eaily overcome. As it is, I don't feel like typing out the most detailed skill in the book, which takes up an entire page, but I will if I must.
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Post by Kurgan »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Kurgan wrote:So he could say, leap into a Stormtrooper?

Also, since Palpatine can "empower" people with the Dark Side of the Force, doesn't that imply that whoever he possesses need not have high force ability (or even be force sensitive at all) for him to retain power once he's inhabiting them? Certainly "infusion of the Force" is part of the EU, via magick tech at least.
Not all Force sensitives are produced equally. Imply? Its never been proven to work, its only your supposition that its plausible. That its never happened suggests there are practical problems. You can't just decide something must be feasible, especially when we don't mechanistically understand the Force.
Never been proven to work? Both Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy feature that as the central plot premise (and not as a game mechanic, but central to the storyline, which is C). We're not just talking about force sensitives having their powers boosted to incredible levels by individuals or magickal tech, but even those with no ability having the force infused into them, to the point where they are virtually indistinguishable from other adepts.

That it's "never happened" (in DE) is simply a plot hole created retroactively by the fact that these stories were written after DE. I can decide it's feasible because I've been shown by C-canon that it IS possible and indeed happended, dozens, if not hundreds of times. However it is done, it certainly works, and I don't see it being impossible for Palpatine to obtain the means that others used to make it happen.

And as for Stormtroopers, who says these clones are unsuitable, but the clone bodies Palpatine uses are "special"? We know they can clone Jedi, powers and all. But even so, there are other ways.
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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