STGOD: A Dead Art? (II)

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-10-30 02:06am

Hotfoot wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Beowolf won't be showing up. I probably will be though.
....What?

He's making fun of Academia Nut's typo.

Academia Nut wrote:This of course presumes that Beowolf doesn't show up, in which case I call first dibs for pounding on the Kitaka.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2007-10-30 02:25am

I think Stargliders steampunk idea is pretty fucking cool. Plus, we don't really have to come up with interesting non-humans, we just get to use the fuck-up-edness that is mankind.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2007-10-30 03:15am

I am for a new one, and to silently let the old one go. Nuking it just for the hell of it, I don't know...
Fantasy STGOD: been there, didn't work, so I have not much faith in a fantasy and/or steampunk STGOD making it out of the womb.

I like the falling-Empire-idea. Powers can range of the barbaric horde grabbing what they can to a still loyal idealistic imperial Remnant-style nation (or a space ship from the past with Dylan Hunt on it to save the day

).
We would need to invest more time in a mutual history/timeline than before and pre-define some relationships before we start for real, though.

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-10-30 03:26am

Dahak wrote:Fantasy STGOD: been there, didn't work

Why not, in your opinion?

My guess would be 'inadequate quantification, too much world complexity'. Ships are just convenient to write stories around when you're only giving it half an hour a day. But I only skimmed through that thread.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2007-10-30 03:34am

I would be interested in participating in one of these things one of these days. However, don't STGODs require knowledge of graphics software in order to draw one's star kingdom's armadas and banners?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-10-30 03:37am

Battlehymn Republic wrote:I would be interested in participating in one of these things one of these days. However, don't STGODs require knowledge of graphics software in order to draw one's star kingdom's armadas and banners?

....no.

I mean, sure, it's a nice bonus to throw stuff like that together, but it's not like we don't let you play without a flag or shit like that.

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2007-10-30 03:40am

Letting the old game devolve into an orgy of violence and destruction, while somewhat entertaining, would not be my vote.

Let the old game die, and let's begin logistics on a new one. As for the new one, I'm against fantasy & steampunk, and for another sci-fi space fleet battle one with many factions all vying for control.

I call the Kremzeek (bonus points to whomever gets the reference).

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-10-30 03:44am

Hotfoot wrote:I mean, sure, it's a nice bonus to throw stuff like that together, but it's not like we don't let you play without a flag or shit like that.

I beg to differ.

Eddie Izzard wrote:That's what you do, that's how you build an empire. We stole countries with the cunning use of flags! Yeah, just sail around the world and stick a flag in.

"I claim India for Britain!"

They go, "You can't claim us, we live here! 500 million of us!"

"Do you have a flag?"

"We don't need a bloody flag! It's our country, you bastards!"

"No flag, no country, you can't have one!"

----

"What is it, Lieutenant Sebastian?"

"It's just the Rebels, sir. They're here."

"My God, man! Do they want tea?"

"No, I think they're after something more than that, sir. I don't know what it is, but they've brought a flag."

"Damn, that's dash cunning of them!"

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2007-10-30 04:00am

How about a compromise? Begin a new STGOD, and make it sci-fi, but make it of a different subgenre- PURE TOTAL WAR. How about a Warhammer 40K-esque universe where there is nothing but militarism, authoritarianism, and over-the-top huge numbers violence?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-10-30 04:06am

Battlehymn Republic wrote:How about a compromise? Begin a new STGOD, and make it sci-fi, but make it of a different subgenre- PURE TOTAL WAR. How about a Warhammer 40K-esque universe where there is nothing but militarism, authoritarianism, and over-the-top huge numbers violence?

To be blunt, it would get old fast. With the focus on pure combat, we'll need to make MUCH more detailed combat rules, and at a certain point, we might as well just play Homeworld or Space Empires or something to handle all of the stupid advanced rules.

It also leaves just about zero room for any actual roleplaying/diplomacy/side stories.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2007-10-30 04:08am

Okay, how about combat and also role-playing of the chaotic destabilizing webs of political intrigue sort (like playing chess aboard the Titanic), set in a grim neo-medieval universe where there are dozens of factions jostling for power in a backdrop of suffering and disorder?

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-10-30 04:13am

Battlehymn Republic wrote:How about a compromise? Begin a new STGOD, and make it sci-fi, but make it of a different subgenre- PURE TOTAL WAR. How about a Warhammer 40K-esque universe where there is nothing but militarism, authoritarianism, and over-the-top huge numbers violence?

The best way to do that is to play an online strategy game and then narrate it. Like a collective game novelisation.

Okay, how about combat and also role-playing of the chaotic destabilizing webs of political intrigue sort (like playing chess aboard the Titanic), set in a grim neo-medieval universe where there are dozens of factions jostling for power in a backdrop of suffering and disorder?

Do you actually work in the marketing department at Games Workshop?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2007-10-30 04:21am

Starglider wrote:
Dahak wrote:Fantasy STGOD: been there, didn't work
Why not, in your opinion?

It's not my opinion, it's fact. After a short time, it died. People lost interest very, very quickly. Even quicker than this one I think.
And the various "hero" STGODs didn't go very far, either...

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2007-10-30 04:29am

The "decaying empire" scenario I think would set the stage nicely for a game. Most players would already know about one another, so we could skip most of the first contact and early diplomacy. This approach would allow the players to dive into the intrigue and "RAR EXPLOSIONS" right away, and would keep things interesting.

As long as the rules and details were settled upon beforehand, this idea, I think, has the potential for lots of good messy fun.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2007-10-30 04:39am

I just wanted a STGOD set in a universe where people call each other "sir" and "lady", there are space knights, everything is falling apart and fanatically religious, and there are aliens from beyond the void that are horrors unimaginable, dammit.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-10-30 04:41am

Battlehymn Republic wrote:I just wanted a STGOD set in a universe where people call each other "sir" and "lady", there are space knights, everything is falling apart and fanatically religious, and there are aliens from beyond the void that are horrors unimaginable, dammit.

You can always have your nation be one that calls people sir and lady and say forsooth after every time they take a shit, but not everyone is going to go for that. The rest of the stuff, well, hey. If the crumbling empire with everyone scrambling for scraps doesn't result in crazy shit happening, not much will.

As far as horrors unimaginable, trust me, the mods are there for that.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2007-10-30 04:42am

Excellent. I guess I was just thinking that there could be a game set in a particular setting, instead of the free-for-all any space opera type faction. But I'm just thinking of hypotheticals anyways, so don't mind me.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-10-30 04:48am

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Excellent. I guess I was just thinking that there could be a game set in a particular setting, instead of the free-for-all any space opera type faction. But I'm just thinking of hypotheticals anyways, so don't mind me.

The problem with having a game in a given setting, like 40K or Star Wars or whatever is that you end up needlessly limiting the players. If you want to write fan-fiction, by all means, go to FF and do just exactly that. That's not to say that numerous factions in STGODs aren't ripped from various sources, but by bringing them to the game, you are giving them new life.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-10-30 09:11am

When I first suggested fantasy stuff, it wasn't heroes or gods I had in mind, really. There's just only so many iterations on Boats you can do, and since so many people leaned towards Fantasy even in our sci-fi STGOD (what with all the psychics and assorted magic) I didn't think that just saying "this is a dude" instead of "this is a spaceship" was really that big of a leap.

If we do steampunk, which also sounded fun, we're not going to be any more immune to dropouts. It doesn't matter what the format is. People might get bored writing about their ironclads shooting your ironclads or whatnot.

You can even claim that land warfare is more complex and harder to model, but we weren't accurately modelling space warfare before either. We're basically shoving around little wads of numbers on a map and writing stories about them. I have no idea why, if people were enthused about the setting, they'd be less able to do that if it was Option A instead of Option B.

A hero or fantasy one might fall into some specific traps, like letting peole have heroes, but if we keep that nonsense away and make sure it isn't a Tolkein STOGD where one guy is a match for 500 of your manz, then it shouldn't be an issue.

It's not like anyoen would stop me from making a Magic-casting Knight-and-Wizard army anyway, if I chose to make one.

Hotfoot wrote:D. Covenant, stow it. Humans and near humans are fine. If you want to wax poetic about "Real Aliens", you can make your own threads in OSF and FF. People calling human or near-human races has NOTHING to do with the quality of the game. The problem we had here was that multiple nations shared a homeworld and DIDN'T want to murder each other.

If you weren't aware, I made only one sentence worth of commentary on that idea, so you can cram your "stow it" nonsense--you spent more time in that Item D being snippy than I spent being annoyed at the human coalition.

Starglider, your mention of Hivers and Motiles, you talking about SotS? The fanmade custom race stuff, perhaps? If so, I find that funny--I'm the one who was the big force pushing for the oddness in their biology. Same name, different board.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2007-10-30 10:42am

Hotfoot wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Beowolf won't be showing up. I probably will be though.
....What?

Spelling.

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2007-10-30 11:07am

Well, this thread has generated a couple of "sounds cool" and couple of "fantasy STGOD's don't work", so since the general trend seems to be for another sci-fi STGOD, might as well save Engineers and Artificers for another date when everything seems dead again. At least with a sci-fi setting I can retain my EW ships, the Cacofonix-class with the (in)famous Nyl Maymin leading the pack, known for always completing the mission... even when success is not expected, planned for, or even wanted.

Seriously, if we do a sci-fi setting I can have most of my OOB done tomorrow, excluding any bits about origin that would need a bit of massaging to work into the history we would work out.

Oh, and BeowUlf?

Post by **Beowulf** » 2007-10-30 11:40am

Yeah. It's surprising how many people can't spell my name correctly.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-10-30 12:03pm

Covenant wrote:If you weren't aware, I made only one sentence worth of commentary on that idea, so you can cram your "stow it" nonsense--you spent more time in that Item D being snippy than I spent being annoyed at the human coalition.

Ah yes, my apologies. I wasn't aware that the one snide comment followed by other slightly less snide snipes that you made didn't mean you had deeper feelings and misconceptions concerning the game, like the fact that the "Human Alliance" was made up of several non-humans (can't use aliens because they might not be "real aliens y'know) or that the underlying causes of what happened might be completely different from what you were insinuating.

But hey, if it's something you care so little about, there shouldn't be any problem in ceding the point now that the error of your ways has been shown to you. Right?

As far as fantasy/steampunk goes, if you guys want you can try again, but past experience has made most people leery. The last FSTGOD on SDN that I remember had a halfway decent start, but fell apart because the person who had whipped everyone up into a fury and started the first main conflict before the game even started, causing a massive alliance against him, dropped out and left everyone twisting in the wind.

And that, gentlemen, is the single greatest underlying problem with STGODs. Forget rules, forget races, forget settings. People crapping out is what kills STGODs the most. People leave for numerous reasons. They feel they got a bad shake, they feel overwhelmed, they come to the all too common realization that this kind of game eats up a gigantic amount of time, etc. Sometimes the leave of absence is temporary. A week with the family, two weeks for finals, then Christmas, etc. Other times, it's less temporary, and the steam goes out of everyone's sails and more people leave, and then it's over.

In this last STGOD, we had delays from multiple people on both sides of the major conflict, which is the major factor in what killed momentum in this game. This had several underlying factors, mind you, but most of those are easier to correct than this single problem which has plagued STGODs from the beginning.

Giving the Mods control over the deserted nations only works so long, and too often people feel resentful that the mods took control, and then become less inclined to come back. Giving other players control can lead to disaster, especially when the other player assumes total control and essentially doubles or triples his might in the process. Wiping them from existence is messy, as it can lead to multiple retcons, which, let's be honest, nobody really wants.

The best solution I can imagine, and by no means is this perfect, is that if we do another STGOD, it is in a setting where the players run the risk of being wiped out at any moment, and anyone who delays too long in a given action suffers that fate in an effort to keep the game moving. As I said, this has problems, but so help me it's the best idea I can think of. If anyone else has any suggestions, by all means, do share.

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2007-10-30 12:15pm

I think instant death gaming can work so long as we establish a set of ironclad ground rules first. Obviously they need refinement, but something along the lines of:

1) If you take more than X amount of time to adequately reply to a momentum stalling event (primarily battles) then your nation is assumed to have been annihilated by the event or some form of natural disaster. Sucks balls and might be a bit illogical at times, but don't muck up the game for everyone else.
2) If you need to have some sort of hiatus, please try to wrap things up with others so that your absence doesn't leave people hanging. If something comes up unexpectantly that is serious enough that you can't tell us, then you probably have the wrong priorities if you're whining about an online game nuking your made up civilization.
3) If your nation gets nuked, you are permitted to make a new one. This is supposed to be fun for all participants, including those who may have things come up. Just don't expect everyone to wait up for you.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-10-30 12:29pm

Those are good ideas, but the problem comes in defining what stalls momentum outside of battles, as such things can happen.

What makes things worse is when someone shows up, kicks out a post that doesn't resolve anything, and then disappears for another week or two.

And this is where ironclad rules turn into judgment calls, which of course can result in people being unhappy with the calls made. At the core of it, it's going to be mod consensus which boots a player's nation from the game, no matter how many rules we apply.

It's imperfect, but it could work if handled well.

In any event, before another STGOD gets off the ground, a few things need to be considered:

-Setting (this is close to being decided upon)
-Rules (assuming sci-fi, patching the previous set should work, but there should be a list of things that need to be covered that were not in the precvious set)
-Map (Easy enough, depending on the complexity of the map)
-Mods (There should be at least three to ensure the game runs smoothly)