Death Star

[Darth Servo]

Latest from the "reasoned discussion" board:

However, given the surface-to-vacuum defenses, the number of fighters, turbolaser batteries, charged-particle blasters, magnetic railguns, proton torpedo banks, ion cannons, and a host of other protective devices, no naval ship of any size would be even a remote threat. A fleet of Imperial-class Star Destroyers—even a fleet of Super-class Star Destroyers, should such a thing ever exist — would offer no real danger to the battle station once it was fully operational. Given all that, a shield system that was less than perfect at times wasn't such a high price to pay for the ability to vaporize a planet.

The surface to vacuum defenses (huh? what's that, a range of 10 centimeters?) were enough to deal with a fleet of ISD or SSDs.
This puts at new twist on Dodonna's words, for any self respected EU fan.

The Death Star had such firepower, aside from the superlaser, that it would be able to deal with any fleet of any ISD or SSD anyone could think of.

Liar liar pants on fire! The quote states that "no naval ship of any size would be even a remote threat" meaning that no INDIVIDUAL ship would be a threat. After that line there is full stop and then it states that "A fleet of Imperial-class Star Destroyers—even a fleet of Super-class Star Destroyers" would offer no threat. NOT "any fleet" or "entire Imperial starfleet" but "a" fleet.
I shouldn't even comment on the retarded "surface to vacuum means 10cm range". I guess that means that surface to air missiles have a range of 10cm too.

Those idiots have always played fast and loose with the dialog.

We know that SDN people always took the most convenient interpretation of Dodonna's words, and never agreed that Dodonna, when talking to the pilots, could have been including the surface defenses, or even solely talked about them.

Liar. Our interpretations have ALWAYS included the possibility that the surface defenses was included in that quote. What was under debate was the idiotic trektard idea that said statement did NOT include the superlaser. Include the surface weapons or don't include them in Dodona's quote, the SW position isn't hurt either way. Hell, including them only means the Imperial starfleet is that much more powerful. Nice false dilema though Mr Oragahn, trying to force people to choose between "just the superlaser" and "just the surface defenses" even though "all of the above" is a perfectly viable third option.

[Darth Wong]

It's like arguing with Roberto Gonzalez. They look for loopholes rather than straight interpretations. For them, the entire Death Star concept is something they try to poke loopholes in, rather than taking the obvious straightforward interpretation that it's really big, really powerful, and blows up planets. No normal person thinks like that.

[Santiago]

It's like arguing with Roberto Gonzalez.

Who is this? Is this a real person or a stereotyped name you made to be funny. Please tell. Edito: Do you mean difficult due to the person in question not speaking English well, or what?

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's like arguing with Roberto Gonzalez.

Who is this? Is this a real person or a stereotyped name you made to be funny. Please tell.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. He was the Attorney General of the United States of America, and therefore was the designated minister of the Cabinet for developing and implementing the legal and law enforcement policy of the United States government.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It's like arguing with Roberto Gonzalez.

Who is this? Is this a real person or a stereotyped name you made to be funny. Please tell. Edito: Do you mean difficult due to the person in question not speaking English well, or what?

Where have you been for the last 3-7 years?!?!

[The_Last_Rebel]

That's funny. I thought the former AG's name was Alberto Gonzales.

[Stark]

Name like Gonzales = making racist joke about bad english? How's that work?

[Illuminatus Primus]

That's funny. I thought the former AG's name was Alberto Gonzales.

I think Mike just made a mistake. And my misread means I made a mistake. And his question was just honest literalism.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, apparently Ozymandias had Santiago banned for being a sock puppet....

[Kane Starkiller]

What's really puzzling about these guys is how they are willing to lie to your face about even the most obvious stuff.

Rate to low to mid petatons, at best. That's the maximum power of your (16 km wide) hypermatter reactor... and again, if this is not already influenced by that hyperspace related gizmo reaction going on, which would already account for the energy distributed there, considering that the ring is already present!

This is Mr. Oragahn claiming that up until the moment Alderaan's rings appear the observed energy is mid to low petatons "at best".
Of course anyone who has the films can easily do this:

The planet obviously expands in all directions in the 4 frame time interval shown here.
On those screencaps each pixel is roughly 125km and the planet expanded for at least several pixels. That would mean some 250km in a matter of four frames or 1500km/s. That is 6.6*10^36J. And the beam is STILL FIRING.
Really what makes one think he can be such a lying cunt and get away with it?

Not "realspace turboboosted many times above c", like tachyonland.
OMG, hypermatter could be... exotic matter?

*Oh noes.*

If “hypermatter” consists of intrinsically faster-than-light particles (tachyons) in some harnessed (perhaps gyrating) form then they could in principle be used as a power source. The act of accelerating a tachyon from c up to infinite speed (considering the complex, supra-light Lorentz-transformations) unleashes all of the particle's mass-energy. This is analogous to the deceleration of ordinary sub-light particles, which however have a lower energy limit mc². A tachyon accelerated to infinite speed and zero energy becomes less like matter and more effectively an omnipresent wave of zero intensity — intangible to the ordinary world. Such a process would achieve complete mass-energy conversion without needing to react this exotic fuel with any antiparticle. The power output would depend on the rate at which the “reactor” can decelerate available fuel, and not upon any reaction process.

That hypermatter is tachyonic was a possibility everyone was aware for years. I can't believe those idiots actually think that novel's statement about tachyons is some great discovery which somehow completely destroys our point.

It also means that precedent ships, notably the Acclamators, used fusion cores, and had nothing to do with hypermatter. And thus we have a problem, I think, when tying fusion cores to 200 GT per salvo for one quad cannon turret, not including all the ship's other power hungry systems.

Hmm so because hypermatter is tachyonic that means that Acclamators use fusion reactors? I don't quite see the connection here but hey that's Trekkie logic for you.

[Vympel]

Hmm so because hypermatter is tachyonic that means that Acclamators use fusion reactors? I don't quite see the connection here but hey that's Trekkie logic for you.

At this point I don't give much regard to this clique of kiddie twits, wanking each other off with obvious bullshit in their little cocoon. Notice how they don't venture out and try these arguments in an environment where they would be attacked directly?

Remember, these are the same fools that proposed that Wars reactors actually relied on the fusion of diesel, based on no evidence whatsoever.

[Darth Servo]

This is Mr. Oragahn claiming that up until the moment Alderaan's rings appear the observed energy is mid to low petatons "at best".
Of course anyone who has the films can easily do this:
[snip image]
The planet obviously expands in all directions in the 4 frame time interval shown here.
On those screencaps each pixel is roughly 125km and the planet expanded for at least several pixels. That would mean some 250km in a matter of four frames or 1500km/s. That is 6.6*10^36J. And the beam is STILL FIRING.
Really what makes one think he can be such a lying cunt and get away with it?

You're talking about a person who actually buys Darkstar's "band of brightness-anti-genesis effect" bull.

It also means that precedent ships, notably the Acclamators, used fusion cores, and had nothing to do with hypermatter. And thus we have a problem, I think, when tying fusion cores to 200 GT per salvo for one quad cannon turret, not including all the ship's other power hungry systems.

Hmm so because hypermatter is tachyonic that means that Acclamators use fusion reactors? I don't quite see the connection here but hey that's Trekkie logic for you.

No, itts because the ROTS novelization makes a statement about dragons in the center of stars and cousins of those dragons in starship reactors means Acclamators run on nuclear fusion.

[Mange]

Ask those people for evidence about what they're claiming about the passenger liner... I meant Death Star.

[Dooey Jo]

Of course anyone who has the films can easily do this:
http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/al ... ansion.jpg

Watch it, or he might post a picture of an overexposed and blurry baseball to refute that.

[Kane Starkiller]

No, itts because the ROTS novelization makes a statement about dragons in the center of stars and cousins of those dragons in starship reactors means Acclamators run on nuclear fusion.

But of course! "Kids talking about dragons living in stars" is iron clad evidence. No way around it: ALL SW ships use fusion.
But when a novel states in no unclear terms that DS reactor output is equivalent to "total weekly output of several main sequence stars" then we shouldn't in any way take it at face value. Oh no now we must concoct all kinds of goofy explanations to escape the clearly stated energy output.

[Kane Starkiller]

Especially since we know that a significant mass of the planet is sucked into hyperspace through an unquantifiable mechanism, which means that all those nifty calcs about energy needed to overcome gravity binding are in need of some severe lowering as well.

He claims the mechanism is unquantifiable but is ABSOLUTELY SURE that it will mean "severe lowering" of Death Star energy requirement calculations.
Consistency? What is that?

[DarthShady]

Consistency? What is that?

A thing that clearly doesn't exist in the minds of trekkies!

[Darth Servo]

No, itts because the ROTS novelization makes a statement about dragons in the center of stars and cousins of those dragons in starship reactors means Acclamators run on nuclear fusion.

But of course! "Kids talking about dragons living in stars" is iron clad evidence. No way around it: ALL SW ships use fusion.

Even if it wasn't kids on Tatooine talking about this, even if it was Bevel Lemelisk himself, anyone with a functioning brain can see that a statement about dragons living in stars is obviously a metaphor, cementing the fact that the original "liberated energy of a small artificial sun" statement from the ANH novelization is also a metaphor.

But when a novel states in no unclear terms that DS reactor output is equivalent to "total weekly output of several main sequence stars" then we shouldn't in any way take it at face value. Oh no now we must concoct all kinds of goofy explanations to escape the clearly stated energy output.

<trektard>
B-b-but (our fanboy interpretation of) the film novelization overrides the EU novel.
</trektard>

[Kane Starkiller]

This flies in the face of the comment, in the same book, that says that the multi star power is released in a burst - in a context where things are precisely said to go wrong.

Cherry picking, ignoring context and other elements won't win you a cookie.

Isn't it fascinating to what lengths of desperation some people will go?

If it didn't work - well, the hypermatter reactor was capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequencee stars;l if anything went ownky, it wasn't liekly he'd be around long enough to notice.

Nowhere does it say that reactor will release this energy ONLY if something goes wrong. In fact it is clear that the part about the output is a digression to inform about the reactors output so that conclusions can be readily drawn about what would happen IF that kind of energy output was released uncontrollably.
Jesus they can't even get the semantic whoring right.

[Vympel]

Isn't it fascinating how the idiot turns a quote that says the hypermatter reactor provides a 'superluminal boost' of much of the planet's mass into hyperspace' into "sucked into hyperspace through an unquantifiable mechanism".

[Kane Starkiller]

Hehehe. Yeah it was so precious to see him desperately twisting words and meanings of the novel to further his own personal view. I mean reading his post you get the impression that hyperspace is just waiting to suck you in and no effort is required.

[NeoGoomba]

Remember, these are the same fools that proposed that Wars reactors actually relied on the fusion of diesel, based on no evidence whatsoever.

Waitaminute...what!?

[Vympel]

Waitaminute...what!?

I'm quite serious. The "evidence" promoted by "Sharp Thorn" (who was obviously tjhairball/ bighairymountainman) on SB.com was a few scant references to liquids in the canon - the "crown jewel" of which was the deleted scene from RotS where Anakin and Obi-Wan are trudging around the Invisible Hand knee-deep in some sort of fuel.

(that would be the deleted scene that never happened). Actually, IIRC that was the only refernece he could come up with, but needless to say, it contradicted nothing even if one took the untenable position that the events of the scene ever actually occured (which, as demonstrated conclusively with common sense, they could not have).

Eventually the fool conceded he had no canon basis for the claim at all, but insisted it was better than hypermatter, which he termed "anti-canon".

[Kane Starkiller]

I'm quite serious. The "evidence" promoted by "Sharp Thorn" (who was obviously tjhairball/ bighairymountainman) on SB.com was a few scant references to liquids in the canon - the "crown jewel" of which was the deleted scene from RotS where Anakin and Obi-Wan are trudging around the Invisible Hand knee-deep in some sort of fuel.

Interestingly enough it is the exact same theory suggested by JMSpock on starfleetjedi:
+http://www.starfleetjedi.net/h5.html

I am convinced that JMSpock is none other than bighairymountainman and I already asked him over at our brief discussion at ST.com. He denied it but the arguments are just too similar. In addition to diesel fuel there is also the way that BigHairyMountainMan insisted that there are 700 starbases based on the numbering scheme and then insisted that percentage of the Spacedock type can be derived by simply observing what percentage do seen Spacedocks constitute among the all seen starbases. JMSpock uses the exact same argumentation for Borg cube numbers: Chakotay's single unsupported line of dialogue and then claiming that we can derive the percentage of Borg cubes amongst millions of Borg vessels by observing the percentage of seen Borg cubes among the all seen vessels. The fact that seen 50 or so Borg vessels cannot possibly represent a sufficient sample for millions of ships is naturally ignored just like BHMM ignored that a few seen starbases cannot represent a sufficient sample for the number of Spacedocks.
It's the same broken logic and same intellectually dishonest premises.

[Vympel]

Thought so. He also flogs the same transparently idiotic warp speed arguments much as hairball/mountain-man did.