Dark Empire criticism thread

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-30 07:50pm

Publius hasn't finished restoring his website, so all of Test of Wills isn't availble.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2007-10-30 08:57pm

Ryan Thunder wrote:
Kurgan wrote:I would hazard to say that the present form of Episode II and III could be said to be a direct result of the strength of Fett-fanboyism.

So even if Fett-wanking existed prior to DE, it and sources like it gave it a major boost, and contributed (however indirectly) to Lucas inserting him into the SE and Prequels.

I mean for crying out loud... he's now a clone of his dad who is the template for the Stormtroopers and instrumental in the Clone Wars!
Who also suffered the most anti-climactic villain death in the whole saga. Seriously.

"His jetpack stopped working."

"No, dammit, I was looking forward to that fight. Now you've ruined it for me, asshole!"

Like father, like son, eh?

Seriously though, I think Lucas is "torn" between wanting to capitalize on the desires of fanboys, but also wanting to stick it to them with "his" vision of how things are (ie: not "admitting" he "made a mistake" in not making Boba Fett more prominent and giving him a "death worthy of ..." whatever).

He gets to have it both ways of course, by giving us MORE Fett in the prequels and SE's (not necessarily quality over quantity), and have him alive and flying around and whatnot (even as a child, I hear) in the EU.

Best part of DE for me? Big Green Dark Side Powered Rancors!

(and that inspired a really cool sequence in the Jedi Academy pc game as well)

The DE series is basically fanwank, but it's fun.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2007-10-31 01:25am

Alexian Cale wrote:
I've gone ahead and actually read the written sections after the comics (reference guides or something), and yeah, it's stated that Palpatine allowed Luke to betray him in little things (such as sending the Rebellion the code to destroy his World Devestators), and his idea is basically to the effect of "if my dark apprentice isn't full of anger and spunk, he's not worth it." But it still seems like Palpatine is overestimating his control over Luke, and Luke's purpose of turning to the Dark Side in the first place was to destroy Palpatine from within. And Palpatine knows that, yet he's still so full of himself that he lets Luke doing that. It would be excusable if Palpatine really acted like he was the master manipulator that he was (as opposed to a run-of-the-mill villain with neat gadgets and Force storms), but he's stupid enough to allow Leia to steal the Jedi holocron that he showed off to her. And stupid enough not to protect his cloning rooms better.
I'd personally call this writer's fiat, but as for an in-universe explanation, you must remember that Emperor Palpatine was losing his grasp on sanity by this point and losing rationality, which -- in some cases -- would make him even more dangerous. He's still brilliant and perceptive, he was aware from the beginning that Luke was rebelling (and I doubt Luke was aware of that), and he's certainly still Luke's intellectual superior by far. But his arrogance and desperation force him to accept Luke's ill intent because Palpatine is that determined to make him his apprentice.

As for Leia stealing his holocron, again, you can credit this to hubris. I doubt he thought she'd attack him, since (if you remember), she tried it once before -- and he kicked the shit out of her without any real effort.

But I will say that Luke Skywalker was uberpowerful at this point. There probably wasn't enough that Palpatine could guard his chambers with that Luke wouldn't have eventually cut down anyways.

The original trade paperback of DE had a bunch of liner-notes and annotations after the end which explained Palpatine's reasoning and why Luke fell, etc. Basically, it was supposed to be a grand arc about good intentions and ends justifying the means - Luke was supposed to reflect Ulic Qel-Droma's noble sacrifice of himself to infiltrate the Krath (as he does Palpatine) to destroy them from the inside when they are too strong to do so from without (much like Palpatine). Eventually this struggle between genuine collaboration or conversion and infiltration or sabotage amounts to a contest of wills between the two (hence the title of Publius' fan fic).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-10-31 03:47am

I don't mind the "Fett-wank" of the prequels so much. Jango is a cool guy with a rocket pack and some guns. What's wrong with that?

Where various EU writers have taken that and written at length about all the admirable things he taught his clones, how wonderful Mandalorian culture is and such, that's just silly.

Darth Massacrus · Post by **Darth Massacrus** » 2007-10-31 04:33pm

The worst part of Dark Empire? Vima Da-Boda. A 200 year old midget woman from the Nar Shaddaa slums who used to be a Jedi and can only speak in the third person.

Alexian Cale · Post by **Alexian Cale** » 2007-10-31 04:53pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Alexian Cale wrote:
I've gone ahead and actually read the written sections after the comics (reference guides or something), and yeah, it's stated that Palpatine allowed Luke to betray him in little things (such as sending the Rebellion the code to destroy his World Devestators), and his idea is basically to the effect of "if my dark apprentice isn't full of anger and spunk, he's not worth it." But it still seems like Palpatine is overestimating his control over Luke, and Luke's purpose of turning to the Dark Side in the first place was to destroy Palpatine from within. And Palpatine knows that, yet he's still so full of himself that he lets Luke doing that. It would be excusable if Palpatine really acted like he was the master manipulator that he was (as opposed to a run-of-the-mill villain with neat gadgets and Force storms), but he's stupid enough to allow Leia to steal the Jedi holocron that he showed off to her. And stupid enough not to protect his cloning rooms better.
I'd personally call this writer's fiat, but as for an in-universe explanation, you must remember that Emperor Palpatine was losing his grasp on sanity by this point and losing rationality, which -- in some cases -- would make him even more dangerous. He's still brilliant and perceptive, he was aware from the beginning that Luke was rebelling (and I doubt Luke was aware of that), and he's certainly still Luke's intellectual superior by far. But his arrogance and desperation force him to accept Luke's ill intent because Palpatine is that determined to make him his apprentice.

As for Leia stealing his holocron, again, you can credit this to hubris. I doubt he thought she'd attack him, since (if you remember), she tried it once before -- and he kicked the shit out of her without any real effort.

But I will say that Luke Skywalker was uberpowerful at this point. There probably wasn't enough that Palpatine could guard his chambers with that Luke wouldn't have eventually cut down anyways.
The original trade paperback of DE had a bunch of liner-notes and annotations after the end which explained Palpatine's reasoning and why Luke fell, etc. Basically, it was supposed to be a grand arc about good intentions and ends justifying the means - Luke was supposed to reflect Ulic Qel-Droma's noble sacrifice of himself to infiltrate the Krath (as he does Palpatine) to destroy them from the inside when they are too strong to do so from without (much like Palpatine). Eventually this struggle between genuine collaboration or conversion and infiltration or sabotage amounts to a contest of wills between the two (hence the title of Publius' fan fic).

Thanks for the elaboration. It has been over a year since I've had the pleasure of reading Publius's novelization (which convinced me that Dark Empire should be novelized), but I do remember that he concluded that Luke's devotion to the light side of the Force was simply stronger than Sidious's devotion to the dark side, hence why he managed to best Sidious in their lightsaber duel.

Would you say that this has merit to it? Because it's fairly obvious that, even then, Luke's Force powers are still inferior to Sidious's own (hence why Leia and the unborn Anakin Solo had to combine their power with Luke to stop the Emperor's Force Storm).

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2007-10-31 04:58pm

What does anyone feel about my idea of having Anakin return as a Force ghost at some point in DE to give Leia guidance/redeem Luke/pull Palpatine's spirit into Space Hell? Is that a cheesy idea, or does he still merit some visible role after ROTJ?

Alexian Cale · Post by **Alexian Cale** » 2007-10-31 04:59pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:What does anyone feel about my idea of having Anakin return as a Force ghost at some point in DE to give Leia guidance/redeem Luke/pull Palpatine's spirit into Space Hell? Is that a cheesy idea, or does he still merit some visible role after ROTJ?

Do you mean that this idea should be implemented? Or are you saying that it was possible the entire time?

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2007-10-31 05:02pm

It's just a wild idea from me to connect Palpatine's return with the prophecy of the Chosen One (which was entirely nonexistent back when DE was conceived and made). I don't think it was possible, because I'm pretty sure Anakin's space ghost didn't do anything after ROTJ.

Alexian Cale · Post by **Alexian Cale** » 2007-10-31 05:12pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:It's just a wild idea from me to connect Palpatine's return with the prophecy of the Chosen One (which was entirely nonexistent back when DE was conceived and made). I don't think it was possible, because I'm pretty sure Anakin's space ghost didn't do anything after ROTJ.

That'd be cool.

Terralthra · Post by **Terralthra** » 2007-10-31 06:00pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:It's just a wild idea from me to connect Palpatine's return with the prophecy of the Chosen One (which was entirely nonexistent back when DE was conceived and made). I don't think it was possible, because I'm pretty sure Anakin's space ghost didn't do anything after ROTJ.

Anakin's Force ghost appears to Leia in The Truce at Bakura, and to Jacen Solo in The Unifying Force. He apparently also appears to Cade Skywalker in Legacy.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2007-10-31 06:02pm

Anakin doesn't really appear except for one appearance in Truce at Bakura, where he tries to apologize to Leia and she tells him off. At least, pre-Dark Nest. I haven't read any of the post-NJO stuff.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2007-10-31 06:13pm

NecronLord wrote:I don't mind the "Fett-wank" of the prequels so much. Jango is a cool guy with a rocket pack and some guns. What's wrong with that?

Where various EU writers have taken that and written at length about all the admirable things he taught his clones, how wonderful Mandalorian culture is and such, that's just silly.

I must say that Fett should not have come back. Especially if that would've ended the wank.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2007-10-31 06:15pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:What does anyone feel about my idea of having Anakin return as a Force ghost at some point in DE to give Leia guidance/redeem Luke/pull Palpatine's spirit into Space Hell? Is that a cheesy idea, or does he still merit some visible role after ROTJ?

I think it would be an idea of merit; check out the Dark Emperor fanfic on theForce dot net. The series does connect the strings of Dark Empire to Palpatine's life and maturation, including how and when he discovered the secret. It also has Anakin warning Luke than Palpatine may return from death after Endor.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2007-10-31 06:26pm

Alexian Cale wrote: Thanks for the elaboration. It has been over a year since I've had the pleasure of reading Publius's novelization (which convinced me that Dark Empire should be novelized), but I do remember that he concluded that Luke's devotion to the light side of the Force was simply stronger than Sidious's devotion to the dark side, hence why he managed to best Sidious in their lightsaber duel.

Would you say that this has merit to it? Because it's fairly obvious that, even then, Luke's Force powers are still inferior to Sidious's own (hence why Leia and the unborn Anakin Solo had to combine their power with Luke to stop the Emperor's Force Storm).

Well having spoken with him on the subject of themes, its basically an outgrowth of the duels between Sidious and Windu and Sidious and Yoda. Windu skirts the dark side and gives himself completely over to Vapaad - he is willing to die to destroy the Dark Lord, and Sidious isn't that willing to win, so he loses. Likewise, Yoda's preoccupation with the light side and his inability to totally give himself over causes him to "not have it" and to have "never had it" according to the ROTS novel. In ToW, Luke simply wants to protect his sister and unborn nephew from Palpatine beyond the value of his own life. He's willing to die to protect them. Palpatine isn't so willing. So he can't win.

The Force Storm is different; its not a contest of will or strength. Rather, Palpatine goes so deep and immersed in the dark side, that what Luke does is heal Palpatine; shield him from his own darkness with the light side (akin to Katarn's neutralization of Jerec in Jedi Knight). This momentary disconnection destroys Palpatine because he simply becomes enveloped and consumed within his own darkness without control. While directing a Force Storm he needs the power his darkness affords him and disconnected from it, it destroys him.

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2007-10-31 06:30pm

Ryan Thunder wrote:Who also suffered the most anti-climactic villain death in the whole saga. Seriously.

What could have been an interesting 'end' for Boba in Ep 6 is have him dueling Chewie and Lando on the barge, while Luke is busy cleaning up Jabba's barge.

They duel for a bit, but Lando is essentially an administrator, and Chewie has not been in good shape due to the improsonment, so Boba steadily overpowers them. It ends with Boba pointing his gun at Han, ready to pull the trigger.

Luke & Leia swing back, and we see the barge starting to blow up.

Boba looks at the barge, and asks L/L is Jabba was on board. Leia confirms so, and Boba puts his gun away. When Han asks him why, Boba explains that the Bounty on Han no longer applies, as Jabba is dead. He calls his ship, and just leaves.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2007-10-31 06:37pm

That would've been ideal. Fett's just another mercenary and bounty hunter, out for pay.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2007-10-31 06:47pm

The desire to minimize the abruptness of Fett's return is one of the reasons why he is never referred to by name in The Test of Wills (the other being to restore him to his original role as "the man with no name" from The Empire Strikes Back, complete with jangling spurs). At the risk of being accused of self-promotion, The Test of Wills is being slowly restored to the Domus Publica site; in the meantime, it is available for download here.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2007-10-31 07:12pm

Publius wrote:The desire to minimize the abruptness of Fett's return is one of the reasons why he is never referred to by name in The Test of Wills (the other being to restore him to his original role as "the man with no name" from The Empire Strikes Back, complete with jangling spurs). At the risk of being accused of self-promotion, The Test of Wills is being slowly restored to the Domus Publica site; in the meantime, it is available for download here.

Sweet. Thanks Publius!

Ryan Thunder · Post by **Ryan Thunder** » 2007-10-31 07:32pm

Kurgan wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:
Kurgan wrote:I would hazard to say that the present form of Episode II and III could be said to be a direct result of the strength of Fett-fanboyism.

So even if Fett-wanking existed prior to DE, it and sources like it gave it a major boost, and contributed (however indirectly) to Lucas inserting him into the SE and Prequels.

I mean for crying out loud... he's now a clone of his dad who is the template for the Stormtroopers and instrumental in the Clone Wars!
Who also suffered the most anti-climactic villain death in the whole saga. Seriously.

"His jetpack stopped working."

"No, dammit, I was looking forward to that fight. Now you've ruined it for me, asshole!"
Like father, like son, eh?

Seriously though, I think Lucas is "torn" between wanting to capitalize on the desires of fanboys, but also wanting to stick it to them with "his" vision of how things are (ie: not "admitting" he "made a mistake" in not making Boba Fett more prominent and giving him a "death worthy of ..." whatever).

Hey, don't get me wrong; I'm no fanboy. I was just looking forward to something a tad more interesting than "ZOMG teh jetpack dozn't work!"

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2007-10-31 07:33pm

Coalition wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Who also suffered the most anti-climactic villain death in the whole saga. Seriously.
What could have been an interesting 'end' for Boba in Ep 6 is have him dueling Chewie and Lando on the barge, while Luke is busy cleaning up Jabba's barge.

They duel for a bit, but Lando is essentially an administrator, and Chewie has not been in good shape due to the improsonment, so Boba steadily overpowers them. It ends with Boba pointing his gun at Han, ready to pull the trigger.

Luke & Leia swing back, and we see the barge starting to blow up.

Boba looks at the barge, and asks L/L is Jabba was on board. Leia confirms so, and Boba puts his gun away. When Han asks him why, Boba explains that the Bounty on Han no longer applies, as Jabba is dead. He calls his ship, and just leaves.

I like that. I like that a LOT.

In fact, that would be his "Han shoots first" moment when he does something that's so fitting for his character that it seems stupid to do it any other way. I could even imagine the dialogue.

Han: "What are you doing? Giving up?"
Fett: "No. I'm just unemployed now."

Or something to that effect.

Alexian Cale · Post by **Alexian Cale** » 2007-10-31 07:57pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Publius wrote:The desire to minimize the abruptness of Fett's return is one of the reasons why he is never referred to by name in The Test of Wills (the other being to restore him to his original role as "the man with no name" from The Empire Strikes Back, complete with jangling spurs). At the risk of being accused of self-promotion, The Test of Wills is being slowly restored to the Domus Publica site; in the meantime, it is available for download here.
Sweet. Thanks Publius!

All I got was a bunch of jibberish, Publius, for whatever reason.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2007-10-31 09:45pm

Once more, with feeling.

Alexian Cale · Post by **Alexian Cale** » 2007-10-31 11:17pm

Thanks, Publius.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2007-10-31 11:37pm

Galvatron wrote:
Coalition wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Who also suffered the most anti-climactic villain death in the whole saga. Seriously.
What could have been an interesting 'end' for Boba in Ep 6 is have him dueling Chewie and Lando on the barge, while Luke is busy cleaning up Jabba's barge.

They duel for a bit, but Lando is essentially an administrator, and Chewie has not been in good shape due to the improsonment, so Boba steadily overpowers them. It ends with Boba pointing his gun at Han, ready to pull the trigger.

Luke & Leia swing back, and we see the barge starting to blow up.

Boba looks at the barge, and asks L/L is Jabba was on board. Leia confirms so, and Boba puts his gun away. When Han asks him why, Boba explains that the Bounty on Han no longer applies, as Jabba is dead. He calls his ship, and just leaves.
I like that. I like that a LOT.

In fact, that would be his "Han shoots first" moment when he does something that's so fitting for his character that it seems stupid to do it any other way. I could even imagine the dialogue.

Han: "What are you doing? Giving up?"
Fett: "No. I'm just unemployed now."

Or something to that effect.

That's 100 times better than most of the shit in the EU. Have you or Coalition written any fanfics featuring Mandalorians?