Palpatine planted images in Anakin's mind?

[Darth Servo]

I always assumed "seduction" is enticement, not rape.

Had Palpatine literally taken over Anakin's free will and manipulated his very life in such a way that he was "always going to fall to the dark side" (then he could have done it with anyone, right?) then it detracts I think, and violates previously established continuity.

Kurgan, WHO THE FUCK IS SAYING PALPATINE FORCED ANAKIN TO THE DARK SIDE?!?

[Galvatron]

Did he plant this image in Anakin's mind?

[Isolder74]

ew.....mind burns now!!!!!!


The goggles they do nothing! Thank so very much for that desturbing image.

On topic I do not feel that Palpitine fed to Anakin the images of his premonitions. It is just giving him way too much credit.

[Alexian Cale]

Perhaps. Since there is no conclusive evidence to prove it, we'd have to conclude otherwise; that said, it is well within Palpatine's power and character to do such a thing.

But I doubt he even cared to know about Shmi.

[Knife]

This is ridiculous. There's no difference between Anakin's dreams and Luke's. They see what they see because of the Force. Sidious isn't casting spells on Anakin any more than Vader was on Luke.

Jesus Tittyfucking Christ, I never asked for a goddamn thing from you before, but now I beseech you:

Please don't let this bullshit become canon!

I think we can, for once, agree on something.

Sideous is powerful but not all powerful. That's what the Force is for.

[Kurgan]

I always assumed "seduction" is enticement, not rape.

Had Palpatine literally taken over Anakin's free will and manipulated his very life in such a way that he was "always going to fall to the dark side" (then he could have done it with anyone, right?) then it detracts I think, and violates previously established continuity.

Kurgan, WHO THE FUCK IS SAYING PALPATINE FORCED ANAKIN TO THE DARK SIDE?!?

Certain fans whose names I won't mention.


As far as visions go, we don't see Luke's vision on Dagobah of Cloud City, only Anakin's visions of Padme. Were Luke's visions of Han & Leia planted by Vader? According to Lucas he's just sensing the "vibes" from the pain that Han is feeling (and gives this as a reason that Vader is torturing him).

So they seem like different situations. To me though, Palpatine knowing and being able to insert the visions into Anakin's head (without him knowing), doesn't that imply he knows the whole story? And if he intended to, doesn't that imply he had something to do with it? Maybe that's why people are thinking he had Shmi killed and ensured Padme's death somehow? (sabotaged the OBGYN robot programming with a virus?)

[Darth Servo]

Certain fans whose names I won't mention.

In other words, you won't back up your claim.

Were Luke's visions of Han & Leia planted by Vader? According to Lucas he's just sensing the "vibes" from the pain that Han is feeling (and gives this as a reason that Vader is torturing him).

Its possible.

So they seem like different situations. To me though, Palpatine knowing and being able to insert the visions into Anakin's head (without him knowing), doesn't that imply he knows the whole story?

No, it does not.

And if he intended to, doesn't that imply he had something to do with it? Maybe that's why people are thinking he had Shmi killed and ensured Padme's death somehow? (sabotaged the OBGYN robot programming with a virus?)

Non-sequitor.

[Havok]

Were Luke's visions of Han & Leia planted by Vader? According to Lucas he's just sensing the "vibes" from the pain that Han is feeling (and gives this as a reason that Vader is torturing him).

Its possible.

No Luke's visions were NOT planted by Vader. That was the point of the torture with no questions. "Why are they doing this?" "They never even asked me any questions."
He knew he would feel his loved one's pain, and come running. Like farther, like son.

Hmm... Interesting thought; Perhaps if Anakin had acted on his visions like Luke did, he wouldn't have turned to the Dark Side?

[Darth Servo]

Were Luke's visions of Han & Leia planted by Vader? According to Lucas he's just sensing the "vibes" from the pain that Han is feeling (and gives this as a reason that Vader is torturing him).

Its possible.

No Luke's visions were NOT planted by Vader. That was the point of the torture with no questions. "Why are they doing this?" "They never even asked me any questions."
He knew he would feel his loved one's pain, and come running. Like farther, like son.

How does "no questions asked" prove the images weren't planted? I'm not necessarily saying they were planted. I'd just like to see your reasoning behind this claim.

[Havok]

Its possible.

No Luke's visions were NOT planted by Vader. That was the point of the torture with no questions. "Why are they doing this?" "They never even asked me any questions."
He knew he would feel his loved one's pain, and come running. Like farther, like son.

How does "no questions asked" prove the images weren't planted? I'm not necessarily saying they were planted. I'd just like to see your reasoning behind this claim.

Well why bother, with tracking the Falcon, hiring bounty hunters, setting a trap at Bespin, torturing his friends all to just entice Luke to Cloud City for a rescue attempt, when he could have just implanted a vision from the bridge of the Executor to get him to go where ever he wanted?

[Darth Servo]

Well why bother, with tracking the Falcon, hiring bounty hunters, setting a trap at Bespin, torturing his friends all to just entice Luke to Cloud City for a rescue attempt, when he could have just implanted a vision from the bridge of the Executor to get him to go where ever he wanted?

1. WTF does this have to do with 'no questions asked'?
2. If the torture never actually happens, Luke doesn't get the vision. Doesn't it need to be a vision of something that is actually going to happen, planted or not?

[Havok]

Well why bother, with tracking the Falcon, hiring bounty hunters, setting a trap at Bespin, torturing his friends all to just entice Luke to Cloud City for a rescue attempt, when he could have just implanted a vision from the bridge of the Executor to get him to go where ever he wanted?

1. WTF does this have to do with 'no questions asked'?
2. If the torture never actually happens, Luke doesn't get the vision. Doesn't it need to be a vision of something that is actually going to happen, planted or not?

Ok, well I have been taking "planted" to mean fabricated or conjured, not something that happened and then they took it and put it where they wanted. The latter is the method I was eluding to in my previous post about how Palpatine might have manipulated Anakin.

"They never even asked me any questions." To me says that Vader tortured him to get the intense pain and suffering out there so Luke could feel it and come running. How I was thinking of "planted", makes that process unnecessary. Why would Vader go to all that trouble if he could have just "planted" the vision he wanted? That's why I said Vader did not "plant" the vision.

[Darth Servo]

Ok, well I have been taking "planted" to mean fabricated or conjured, not something that happened and then they took it and put it where they wanted.

Why? Both of Anakin's visions (planted or not) were of things that eventually happened.

"They never even asked me any questions." To me says that Vader tortured him to get the intense pain and suffering out there so Luke could feel it and come running. How I was thinking of "planted", makes that process unnecessary. Why would Vader go to all that trouble if he could have just "planted" the vision he wanted? That's why I said Vader did not "plant" the vision.

Again, if the events of the vision need to actually happen at some point in time in order for the vision to happen, your shortcut won't work.

[Havok]

I'm not arguing for anything being planted. Somewhere along the line of the thread I just started interpreting "planted" differently. Vader tortured Han and Leia because he knew Luke would feel their pain just how he felt the pain of Padme and Shmi. The vision that Luke experienced were of the future just like the visions Anakin had. The only difference is that Vader created the circumstances of the vision, where Palpatine, as far as we know did not. I guess in a sense Vader manipulated circumstances to create the vision, so in a way he did plant it.

[Havok]

Damnit, I just read through that and it's not making much sense. I'm trying to keep this straight and spout off part numbers and tell customers how to pump up their engines at the same time and it isn't working out. Just ignore me for right now.

[Kurgan]

Certain fans whose names I won't mention.

In other words, you won't back up your claim.

My "claim"? I'm only "claiming" that I had heard some fans promoting the idea that Sideous PLANTED those visions in Anakin's head. Do I need to name the names of those people and provide direct links to exact quotes for you? I posted this because I wanted to see how popular this idea was with posters on SD.net.

Since I'm not accusing specific people on this forum of holding a view that they contest, I don't see the big deal with no naming names.

Anyone on this forum who does hold this view, I invite them to argue it here. That's kinda the point!

In terms of what the original people went by "planted" I didn't bother to ask at the time. I guess I presumed they meant that they were just fabricated. But when you look at the actual "clips" that Anakin sees in his mind, they correspond to actual footage we see, so they seem like real "visions of the future" (or at least a possible future, that Anakin unwittingly brings about).

Were Luke's visions of Han & Leia planted by Vader? According to Lucas he's just sensing the "vibes" from the pain that Han is feeling (and gives this as a reason that Vader is torturing him).

Its possible.

Okay, so is it also possible that Palpatine is planting the visions in Anakin's head of his mother suffering and Padme dying in childbirth?

Or did he just sense that Anakin was having those visions and thus found out the "real story" of his secret life? (I prefer the latter; though that wouldn't explain why nobody else seems aware of them, unless you chalk that up to "shroud of the dark side" or something).

So they seem like different situations. To me though, Palpatine knowing and being able to insert the visions into Anakin's head (without him knowing), doesn't that imply he knows the whole story?

No, it does not.[/quote]

Okay, so all things being equal, Palpatine could have planted the visions, even if he had no idea Anakin's secret wife was pregnant (well he does know that, we learn later, but how he found out, we aren't told in the movie; via ROTJ though we know that strong feelings can be read with the Force if they are not guarded at the moment), or that Anakin's mother was in terrible pain, you think?

And if he intended to, doesn't that imply he had something to do with it? Maybe that's why people are thinking he had Shmi killed and ensured Padme's death somehow? (sabotaged the OBGYN robot programming with a virus?)

Non-sequitor.

Do you accept that Padme simply "lost the will to live" and died? That seems to be the commonly accepted understanding, via the movie (even if its ridiculous in real life terms). The other proposals have been that Anakin somehow killed her with the Force, or that Palpatine somehow killed her.

I figured if Palpatine is "planting" the visions that somehow implies he's responsible for what's happening. Okay, so that isn't a given, but I wonder what people think. Well?

[Darth Servo]

Certain fans whose names I won't mention.

In other words, you won't back up your claim.

My "claim"? I'm only "claiming" that I had heard some fans promoting the idea that Sideous PLANTED those visions in Anakin's head.

Liar. You claim that fans are saying Palpatine FORCED Anakin to the darkside. When asked to back it up, you replied, "nah, not going to"

Do I need to name the names of those people and provide direct links to exact quotes for you? I posted this because I wanted to see how popular this idea was with posters on SD.net.

You need to NOT change the fucking subject, asshole.

In terms of what the original people went by "planted" I didn't bother to ask at the time. I guess I presumed they meant that they were just fabricated. But when you look at the actual "clips" that Anakin sees in his mind, they correspond to actual footage we see, so they seem like real "visions of the future" (or at least a possible future, that Anakin unwittingly brings about).

So what? Why does the vision being of actual events mean they can't be planted?

If you want an analogy, suppose Force visions are like radio signals. Suppose a Jedi/Sith can only pick up the ones thy're currently tuned in to. Perhaps Palpatine was making sure they were being broadcast on Anakin's favorite station..

Okay, so is it also possible that Palpatine is planting the visions in Anakin's head of his mother suffering and Padme dying in childbirth?

Yes.

Or did he just sense that Anakin was having those visions and thus found out the "real story" of his secret life? (I prefer the latter; though that wouldn't explain why nobody else seems aware of them, unless you chalk that up to "shroud of the dark side" or something).

Maybe. But your opinion means nothing, especially given how you keep ocsillating between "Did Palpatine plant the visions" and "Did Palpatine FORCE Anakin to the darkside?"

Okay, so all things being equal, Palpatine could have planted the visions, even if he had no idea Anakin's secret wife was pregnant (well he does know that, we learn later, but how he found out, we aren't told in the movie; via ROTJ though we know that strong feelings can be read with the Force if they are not guarded at the moment), or that Anakin's mother was in terrible pain, you think?

How Palpatine found out about Padme is completely irrelevant to the question of whether he planted the visions in the first place. Anakin had undoubtedly discussed her with Palpatine given he couldn't talk about it with the Jedi.

Do you accept that Padme simply "lost the will to live" and died? That seems to be the commonly accepted understanding, via the movie (even if its ridiculous in real life terms).

Commonly accepted by whom? Your mysterious unnamed SW fans from some other board?

My thoughts on how she actually did die are completely irrelevant to the subject which is "did Palpatine plant the images of her death in Anakin's mind?"

The other proposals have been that Anakin somehow killed her with the Force, or that Palpatine somehow killed her.

The "Anakin killed her through the Force" is indeed presented on Mike's ROTS revelations page.

I figured if Palpatine is "planting" the visions that somehow implies he's responsible for what's happening. Okay, so that isn't a given, but I wonder what people think. Well?

If someone puts a piece of cake in front of someone on a diet, the dieter is still the one who choses whether or not to eat it.

[Kurgan]

Liar. You claim that fans are saying Palpatine FORCED Anakin to the darkside. When asked to back it up, you replied, "nah, not going to"

I'm a liar because I don't indulge you? Wonderful. Maybe you can sue me for false advertising and use the money to buy a big Jar Jar doll.

Are you insisting the discussion is not valid unless you know WHO made such claims? Do you think I just made them up to create filler?

If it was on the IMDB boards that I was thinking of, it's long gone anyway, as they delete threads that are older than a couple of weeks.

You need to NOT change the fucking subject, asshole.

Unless you're a moderator or a Bene Gesserit Truthsayer, I'm going to ignore this.

So what? Why does the vision being of actual events mean they can't be planted?

Because "planted" to me implies that it was fashioned from nothing... that it's a delusion, not a true portrait of future events. Of course if you see it as merely one possible future, then why wouldn't Anakin sensing it be independent of Palpatine?

I'd like to hear a good argument for it being implanted into Anakin's mind by Palpatine, rather than Anakin sensing the real (or possible) future.

You might argue that Palpatine can see the future, and since Anakin can't (because he's being "clouded") that he mistakes Palpatine's vision for his own. Whatever, just give me a theory, if you're done accusing...

If you want an analogy, suppose Force visions are like radio signals. Suppose a Jedi/Sith can only pick up the ones thy're currently tuned in to. Perhaps Palpatine was making sure they were being broadcast on Anakin's favorite station..

So you DO think he implanted the images...

Quote:
Okay, so is it also possible that Palpatine is planting the visions in Anakin's head of his mother suffering and Padme dying in childbirth?

Yes.

Again. So why were you offended that I suggested people were saying this? Did you see yourself included in that statement and got mad because I apparently didn't agree with you?

Quote:
Or did he just sense that Anakin was having those visions and thus found out the "real story" of his secret life? (I prefer the latter; though that wouldn't explain why nobody else seems aware of them, unless you chalk that up to "shroud of the dark side" or something).

Maybe. But your opinion means nothing, especially given how you keep ocsillating between "Did Palpatine plant the visions" and "Did Palpatine FORCE Anakin to the darkside?"

Why does my opinion mean nothing? Does yours mean anything? So far you've just stated that it's possible, and you seem to be leaning that way. Isn't it equally possible that he did not implant the visions?

And whether or not he was forced to the Dark Side is really a seperate issue (but I suppose related somewhat, he could have implanted the visions and still given him a free choice, but the more towards manipulation we slide, the closer we get to "he had no choice").

I draw a line between Palpatine tempting him and actually manipulating his mind and will from within. If he can get inside his head and give him visions of what may or may not happen, doesn't that suggest a greater level of control?

It's true, we do hear Palpatine's voice as Anakin sits in the council, but that may be simply telepathy (like between Leia and Luke or Vader and Luke).

How Palpatine found out about Padme is completely irrelevant to the question of whether he planted the visions in the first place. Anakin had undoubtedly discussed her with Palpatine given he couldn't talk about it with the Jedi.

How do we know that, just from the movies? IIRC in the novel Palpatine found the records of the minister that married them in AOTC. In any case, in the movie, Anakin seemed surprised that Palpatine knew and immediately suspected that he was a Sith Lord when he said that, as if he needed the Force to discover the secret.

Why couldn't he talk about it with the Jedi? He wouldn't have to say he was married to Padme, he could just say, in private, he was feeling attracted to a woman and ask what he should do about it. I'm sure such a question has come up in the Jedi Order before in their 1,000+ year history. But whatever.

I'm saying if he was in Anakin's head ANYWAY, maybe he looked around, as it were and saw that "secret" lying there and decided it would be useful to use. It's not a given, but it might explain the "implanted" argument's logic better and even the "forced him to the dark side" theory better.

Quote:
Do you accept that Padme simply "lost the will to live" and died? That seems to be the commonly accepted understanding, via the movie (even if its ridiculous in real life terms).

Commonly accepted by whom? Your mysterious unnamed SW fans from some other board?

Name me someone who doesn't think Padme lost the will to live.
That's in the friggin' movie. People dispute it on grounds that it's UNREALISTIC. The question then remains how they think she died.

We can either just throw SOD out the window and say Lucas is a hack, or we can invent some alternate reason for her dying. The only one I've heard so far is that Anakin accidentally killed her with the Force.

What do YOU think? Let me guess, you agree with my "mysterious unnamed fans"?

My thoughts on how she actually did die are completely irrelevant to the subject which is "did Palpatine plant the images of her death in Anakin's mind?"

If Palpatine was going to fulfill those images, maybe HE killed her? Who knows? You tell me...

Quote:
The other proposals have been that Anakin somehow killed her with the Force, or that Palpatine somehow killed her.

The "Anakin killed her through the Force" is indeed presented on Mike's ROTS revelations page.

Oh great! Is that why you're upset?

Since I hadn't read Mike's revelations page in over a year, I went back as you suggested. He credits "Marina O'Leary and Joe" for the "alternative theory." Then he sums up and considers it "more plausible" than Padme willing herself to die.

I'm saying Lucas, in the film is saying she lost the will to live and that's how she died. That's stupid (for many reasons, among them that this isn't realistic), and if you don't like it, make up whatever you want. I personally just think it's bad writing.

As I see it, the page is trying to rationalize the "facts" of the movie to maintain SOD. But saying he accidentally killed her with the Force? Why not Palpatine killed her with the Force? Or maybe the midichlorians killed her. Maybe the children accidentally killed her. Who knows, right? A lot of things are "possible." Whatever you think is the most "dramatic" I suppose, but there's no clear answer just because you reject the movie's built in (but silly) answer.

Quote:
I figured if Palpatine is "planting" the visions that somehow implies he's responsible for what's happening. Okay, so that isn't a given, but I wonder what people think. Well?

If someone puts a piece of cake in front of someone on a diet, the dieter is still the one who choses whether or not to eat it.

But if the cake placer gets inside of the head of the cake desirer and implants a vision of the future in which the person is eating the cake, as if it's their inescapable destiny, does the person have a choice anymore? Less of a choice than before? What if there is no cake there, but only the implanted vision? Will the person, thinking it's predestined, seek out cake then to fulfill it?

[Darth Servo]

Liar. You claim that fans are saying Palpatine FORCED Anakin to the darkside. When asked to back it up, you replied, "nah, not going to"

I'm a liar because I don't indulge you? Wonderful. Maybe you can sue me for false advertising and use the money to buy a big Jar Jar doll.

No, asshole, you're a liar for denying that you claimed said fans claimed Palpatine FORCED Anakin to the darkside.

Are you insisting the discussion is not valid unless you know WHO made such claims? Do you think I just made them up to create filler?

Its not valid when you won't back up your claims. Its one of the rules around here.

You need to NOT change the fucking subject, asshole.

Unless you're a moderator or a Bene Gesserit Truthsayer, I'm going to ignore this.

So you think you're allowed to change the subject at will? I'm not a mod, so I can't punish you but I AM allowed to point out when you're using logical fallacies.

Because "planted" to me implies that it was fashioned from nothing... that it's a delusion, not a true portrait of future events.

What it implies to you is worthless. You make one leap in logic after another.

I'd like to hear a good argument for it being implanted into Anakin's mind by Palpatine, rather than Anakin sensing the real (or possible) future.

The timing is too convienent and we KNOW Palpatine has had his eye on Anakin since the end of TPM.

If you want an analogy, suppose Force visions are like radio signals. Suppose a Jedi/Sith can only pick up the ones thy're currently tuned in to. Perhaps Palpatine was making sure they were being broadcast on Anakin's favorite station..

So you DO think he implanted the images...

Yes, so what?

Again. So why were you offended that I suggested people were saying this? Did you see yourself included in that statement and got mad because I apparently didn't agree with you?

I was offended because you were claiming that people were saying Palpatine FORCED Anakin to the darkside. Learn to read shithead.

Why does my opinion mean nothing? Does yours mean anything? So far you've just stated that it's possible, and you seem to be leaning that way. Isn't it equally possible that he did not implant the visions?

Yes, but I'm not going around saying the other position is "out of their asses, I imagine"

And whether or not he was forced to the Dark Side is really a seperate issue (but I suppose related somewhat, he could have implanted the visions and still given him a free choice, but the more towards manipulation we slide, the closer we get to "he had no choice").

Another non-sequitor. We never saw Palpatine wave his hand in front of Anakin "You will turn to the darkside".

I draw a line between Palpatine tempting him and actually manipulating his mind and will from within. If he can get inside his head and give him visions of what may or may not happen, doesn't that suggest a greater level of control?

NO. He is just sending visions.

How do we know that, just from the movies?

Why the fuck should we limit ourselves to the movies?

Why couldn't he talk about it with the Jedi?

Why couldn't he talk about his marriage with the Jedi? Because that means getting expelled from the Jedi order, you idiot.

He wouldn't have to say he was married to Padme, he could just say, in private, he was feeling attracted to a woman and ask what he should do about it. I'm sure such a question has come up in the Jedi Order before in their 1,000+ year history. But whatever.

In other words, lie.

Name me someone who doesn't think Padme lost the will to live.

Already did. I poinited out that the very owner of this board agrees that the "lost the will to live" idea is ridiculous.

That's in the friggin' movie. People dispute it on grounds that it's UNREALISTIC. The question then remains how they think she died.

Its dialog, from an obviously confused droid. Haven't you noticed that around here, dialog is NOT irrefutable proof of anything. Hell, doctors in real life misdiagnose things.

We can either just throw SOD out the window and say Lucas is a hack, or we can invent some alternate reason for her dying. The only one I've heard so far is that Anakin accidentally killed her with the Force.

Or we can observe that the droid was confused as hell about the situation and thus its statement on the matter is just speculation.

If Palpatine was going to fulfill those images, maybe HE killed her? Who knows? You tell me...

I don't know. And its still irrelevant.

Oh great! Is that why you're upset?

No, I'm upset because you're a fucking liar.

Whatever you think is the most "dramatic" I suppose, but there's no clear answer just because you reject the movie's built in (but silly) answer.

You admit that the movie's "explanation makes no sense" so there MUST be an alternative. Again, character dialog, especially when comming from a droid who can't seem to figure out whats going on is not infalliable.

But if the cake placer gets inside of the head of the cake desirer and implants a vision of the future in which the person is eating the cake, as if it's their inescapable destiny, does the person have a choice anymore?Less of a choice than before? What if there is no cake there, but only the implanted vision? Will the person, thinking it's predestined, seek out cake then to fulfill it?

You're perverting the analogy. Palpatine did NOT plant an image of Padme's death or Anakin turning to the darkside as an "inescapable destiny". He didn't plant images of turning to the darkside into Anakin's head at all.

The cake: visions of Padme's death
Eating the cake: turning to the darkside to prevent death.

No matter how much you squirm, Anakin still chose to eat the cake, temptations or no temptations. Stop it with your dishonest little shell game you're trying to play. Temptation does NOT equal forcing.

[Kurgan]

No, asshole, you're a liar for denying that you claimed said fans claimed Palpatine FORCED Anakin to the darkside.

How do you know I'm intentionally misrepresenting the opinions of these unnamed fans, if you don't know who they are and what they actually said?

I think fans most certainly did think that, because they (as I understood it) interpreted the seduction of Anakin by Palpatine as some kind of absolute. This was also tied in (by some) of the "death" of Anakin, that he actually changed into another person ("Vader") or else that he was somehow "possessed" and his actions were no longer his own (taking the slave metaphor to an extreme). If they conceive of Palpatine manipulating all the events (including having Shmi killed, and implanting the visions into Anakin's head of her and Padme's deaths, with the extension that only Palpatine's teachings of secret powers could save them... well you put it together.. how much freedom of will does Anakin have left? As opposed to saying he saw the data in front of him, misinterpreted it and made some poor decisions based on it, with suggestions by Palpatine, but not direct manipulation of every detail).

Its not valid when you won't back up your claims. Its one of the rules around here.

So why not simply address the idea... that is, ASSUME somebody did make those claims and then examine the claims.

I'm not lying (as you allege), but, even if my "unnamed fans" were a fiction, what difference would that make? I didn't claim that these fans were somehow in possession of a deeper G-canon knowledge or something. I'm not citing them as authority. The focus is the question itself, and what people HERE think of those ideas.

These aren't my views, nor are they the views of any SDneter that I know of (unless you're saying these are actually your views, I didn't have you in mind when I posted).

So you think you're allowed to change the subject at will? I'm not a mod, so I can't punish you but I AM allowed to point out when you're using logical fallacies.

Hell yeah I'm allowed to change my mind, change the subject and change my hairstyle at will. Complain all you like...

I don't see where I committed a logical fallacy in my opening post.

What it implies to you is worthless. You make one leap in logic after another.

Then please tell me logically what point you're trying to make...

Quote:
I'd like to hear a good argument for it being implanted into Anakin's mind by Palpatine, rather than Anakin sensing the real (or possible) future.

The timing is too convienent and we KNOW Palpatine has had his eye on Anakin since the end of TPM.

And it's not a logical leap from there to assume that he implanted the visions of Padme and Shmi dying into Anakin's head to try to push him towards the Dark Side (when this isn't stated anywhere in the movie, and to my knowledge Lucas has never said any such thing as being his intention)?

Yes, so what?

So perhaps your anger above is due in part to the perception that my post was an underhanded attack upon you personally? If so, it's unwarranted since that was not my intention at all.

I was offended because you were claiming that people were saying Palpatine FORCED Anakin to the darkside. Learn to read shithead.

Which fans did I claim were saying Palpatine "FORCED" Anakin to the DarkSide? That was your outburst earlier, but I wasn't the one who brought up the loss of free will in the first place. I was commenting on what was said on page 1 (go read it again if you don't remember).

My whole point is that I don't give Palpatine as much credit for Anakin's fall as I PRESUME some people are doing. People in this thread have mentioned the possibility that Palpatine manipulated Anakin on a much more profound level. You leaped in arguing that I was claiming someone said he was forced. Is it possible for me to disagree with the idea, without pinpointing exactly WHO claimed and WHY they are wrong, according to me? I think you're overreacting here.

Quote:
Why does my opinion mean nothing? Does yours mean anything? So far you've just stated that it's possible, and you seem to be leaning that way. Isn't it equally possible that he did not implant the visions?

Yes, but I'm not going around saying the other position is "out of their asses, I imagine"

The movie says nothing about the visions being implanted. If we don't know, and there's no "canonical answer" then all of it is speculation. I don't LIKE the idea, that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. I also wondered if the idea had resonance with people here and if so WHY.

If you're going to argue that Palpatine implanting visions in Anakin's head is not "out of someone's ass" then where does it come from?

I figured the most obvious thing was that Anakin sensed a possible future and then freaked out and ended up fulfilling it. I don't see why it's necessary to think Palpatine implanted it into his head at all.

Another non-sequitor. We never saw Palpatine wave his hand in front of Anakin "You will turn to the darkside".

Which means nothing, since the stereotypical Jedi Mind Trick is not the only way to use the Force on someone, even just going by the movies.

I don't personally think he implanted the visions or took over Anakin's win. I think he used good old fashioned deception, and appealing to Anakin's ego.. things that any human could have done.

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I draw a line between Palpatine tempting him and actually manipulating his mind and will from within. If he can get inside his head and give him visions of what may or may not happen, doesn't that suggest a greater level of control?

NO. He is just sending visions.

Okay. And where did those visions come from in the first place?

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How do we know that, just from the movies?

Why the fuck should we limit ourselves to the movies?

Because I really don't give a shit about some "official explanation" if there is one. If Lucas has said something about it, that'd be interesting, and ditto if the EU said something, but it may not be useful. If it's NOT explained in the movies, one can't blame a person for not coming to the "correct" conclusion explained elsewhere if it's unclear.

Yes, it would be helpful to know where the "fans" who think Palpatine implanted the visions in Anakin's head got that idea. Was it just their interpretation watching the movie, did they read it in Star Wars Insider, or what? It doesn't really matter to me, I'm just curious why they think that.

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Why couldn't he talk about it with the Jedi?

Why couldn't he talk about his marriage with the Jedi? Because that means getting expelled from the Jedi order, you idiot.

Read what I wrote. I said

He wouldn't have to say he was married to Padme, he could just say, in private, he was feeling attracted to a woman and ask what he should do about it. I'm sure such a question has come up in the Jedi Order before in their 1,000+ year history. But whatever.

In other words, lie.

Would that be something new for Anakin? The charge was that he had to tell Palpatine about his marriage, because he needed someone to talk to about it and he couldn't tell the Jedi.

I don't see any evidence that he thought Palpatine knew, UNTIL their "conversation" in his chambers, moments before he whips out his saber and says "You're the Sith Lord"!

The movie tells us early on that Anakin told Palpatine about his "mother and the sandpeople" but nothing about the marriage. If you want to bring up the novel, it indicates that Palpatine seems to have found out based on detective work he did, and discovered the marriage records from Naboo (why would he need to do that, if Anakin had simply confided in him that he was married, or used the Force to sense it? But without the novel, I just assumed he "used the force").

I assumed Anakin told nobody, and so nobody knew, except the minister, the two droids, and Padme herself, until Palpatine found out (either via the Force or his paper-trailing Anakin).

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Name me someone who doesn't think Padme lost the will to live.

Already did. I poinited out that the very owner of this board agrees that the "lost the will to live" idea is ridiculous.

He thinks it's ridiculous (I agree, actually), but would he admit that is what the movie seems to be saying, at least on the surface? The medical droid tells us that she's losing the will to live, and that's the only qualified authority in the scene. Later Palpatine suggests (with a smirk and an eye roll that could be interpreted as proof that he was just BSing him if you like) that "it seems in your anger you killed her."

I just chalk it up as a writing mistake. I'm not really satisfied with any of the explanations that have been offered so far (or at least how they've been articulated).

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That's in the friggin' movie. People dispute it on grounds that it's UNREALISTIC. The question then remains how they think she died.

Its dialog, from an obviously confused droid. Haven't you noticed that around here, dialog is NOT irrefutable proof of anything. Hell, doctors in real life misdiagnose things.

That's true. But if we assume mis diagnosis doesn't mean therefore that Palpatine is telling the truth and that Anakin did, via the Force, accidentally make her die. It could have just been complications from her pregnancy, allergic reaction to some medication used, some other unforseen medical problem, etc. And if she was killed through the Force, who is to say (besides Palpatine, an untrustworthy source) that Anakin is the one who did it?

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We can either just throw SOD out the window and say Lucas is a hack, or we can invent some alternate reason for her dying. The only one I've heard so far is that Anakin accidentally killed her with the Force.

Or we can observe that the droid was confused as hell about the situation and thus its statement on the matter is just speculation.

So in other words, killing people with the Force is beyond the knowledge of medical droids in the Star Wars universe? Odd, considering how long the Jedi have been with the Republic, surely this sort of thing has come up? Or haven't they, in a thousand years, done an autopsy on someone killed by a Jedi who wasn't obviously just sabered to death?

Then again, we do have a precedent for Anakin accidentally destroying things, so maybe so, maybe so...

No, I'm upset because you're a fucking liar.

And I'm amused that you'd insist I'm lying...

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Whatever you think is the most "dramatic" I suppose, but there's no clear answer just because you reject the movie's built in (but silly) answer.

You admit that the movie's "explanation makes no sense" so there MUST be an alternative. Again, character dialog, especially when comming from a droid who can't seem to figure out whats going on is not infalliable.

No, there mustn't, because I'm not assuming the movie is inerrant.

I could assume the Star Wars galaxy is magical and therefore people can will themselves to die there. Or I could assume any number of explanations. But that doesn't automatically come to "Anakin accidentally killed her with the Force."

You're perverting the analogy. Palpatine did NOT plant an image of Padme's death or Anakin turning to the darkside as an "inescapable destiny". He didn't plant images of turning to the darkside into Anakin's head at all.

So there the connection between Anakin's seduction to the Dark Side and the visions of these two women's deaths was entirely voluntary decisions that Anakin came up with himself. Well that's fair if you want to argue that.

I wasn't arguing that Anakin had a vision of himself turning to the Dark Side (maybe he did, but no evidence of it). Not every vision he had came true, as he dreamed as a child ("dreamed") of freeing the slaves, which he never did. But he doesn't have the ability to know which of his visions will come true (and he acts as if Padme dying in childbirth can be stopped from happening).

The cake: visions of Padme's death
Eating the cake: turning to the darkside to prevent death.

No matter how much you squirm, Anakin still chose to eat the cake, temptations or no temptations. Stop it with your dishonest little shell game you're trying to play. Temptation does NOT equal forcing.

I'm questioning the perceived degree that Palpatine manipulated him. I'm biased towards putting more of the decision making power in Anakin's hands. Whether that's supported by the movie more or less than other understandings of it is up for grabs. I'm not arguing that he wasn't tempted, or that he was forced to join the Dark Side.

IF we were to assume that he thought his only option was to join the Sith, then that makes me wonder how much free will he actually had to choose between dark and light. I think this is merely the option he wanted to take, thinking it would benefit him, and the visions were possible futures that he himself sensed. Palpatine need not have implanted the visions, as he also has the ability to foresee possible futures (though this doesn't fully answer the question of how the other Jedi don't see this, but you wouldn't have to argue that any visions anyone has are Palpatine's creations, their visions may simply be selective and/or hazy, just as Palpatine's visions in the OT are).

[Alexian Cale]

It depends. I'll admit, Kurgan, from your earlier posts, you made it seem as though Anakin was a "bad person" to begin with and that Palpatine's machinations had nothing to do with what became of him. That isn't so. We can't credit the Sith Lord with forcing Anakin down that path -- you can't, you have to choose this for yourself -- but I would conclude that Sidious was the biggest catalyst in that decision. It was through his plans and schemes that nudged Anakin down that path.

Essentially, you can tell this by subtracting Palpatine from the problem: had Sidious avoided Anakin all together, would he have likely turned? Probably not. Or if he had, it'd have been a much slower process that would have likely taken... forever.

[Kurgan]

I do think he was a bad person (not as a child, but certainly for most of the time we see him in AOTC), but that doesn't mean I think he was forced to the Dark Side. He could have remained a jerky whiner and not necessarily become a mass murdering Sith. Before his hands were stained with innocent blood you could tell he had serious problems (and not just because we've seen the first three).

Being a bad person doesn't necessarily mean "dark sided," since we can have evil people like Tarkin who have no force ability whatsoever.

Presumably it's possible to fall to the dark side even if the Sith don't exist (at least in the EU that's true), so he may very well, with his personality, have eventually fallen another way. And there were certainly corrupt influences in the SW galaxy that were not Sith based, that he might have latched onto.


But, the path he was going down was such that it seemed to me pretty much inevitable (the only question being how or when). That said, to me it's Anakin choosing that path, not somebody else making him do it.

The opposite view would be that he was a "good person" (Padme says this, Lucas says this too at a few points, though I don't recall if Lucas continued to say this after he released Episode III or only before) who "turned evil." So it's as if he was artificially changed in his personality by an outside influence (which I guess touches on whether one believes the Dark Side can consume someone without their consent).

And one might try to equate his "turning evil" with evil influences upon him. Then it's asserted by some that the Jedi's influence is what made him evil, or it was Palpatine's influence that made him evil.

While I won't dispute that Anakin's personal incompatibility with the Jedi way and the offering of temptation to him by Palpatine contributed to his fall, ultimately it was his choice, and his prior disposition fueled him on that path.

For story purposes obviously he had to turn, but how he turned was anyone's guess (we had hints of his seduction by the Dark Side and his "conversion" by the Emperor, that was it). I will not deny that Palpatine influenced him, but again, he could have resisted. Luke resisted. Obi-Wan resists Dooku's (admittedly weak-sauce, but still, it's there) attempt.

He could have realized "you know what, if I do this, I may get what I want, but at what cost? I shouldn't go to this extreme, maybe there's another way" and he'd be on a better path already.

Yoda says "once you start down the dark path" blah blah blah, but we know that what Yoda says isn't absolute, and we don't know necessarily how that will play out.

There's a lot of talk of destiny in Star Wars, but it seems that individuals ultimately have free choice. Some however, trap themselves, as Anakin seems to do.

[Havok]

My problem is what fueled the personality change?

He went from a cool well adjusted kid to a homicidal maniac, for no reason other than he missed his mom and then she died? I guess I can see that happening but it is a fucking stretch to me.

If you throw in his love for Padme and the impending doom he "knew" she would befall, that helps.... but why all the stubbornness when it came to accepting the ways and teachings of the Jedi, it's not like he came from an structured life as a slave where he had basically nothing and had to do things the way someone else wanted all the time or anything... oh wait, he did.

Maybe being a slave in the SW galaxy isn't what we know of being a slave, since he rebelled so hard against the structured life of a Jedi.

It just seems likely to me that the change came from Palpatine manipulating him for a decade plus, and not because he was always bad.

[Alexian Cale]

My problem is what fueled the personality change?

He went from a cool well adjusted kid to a homicidal maniac, for no reason other than he missed his mom and then she died? I guess I can see that happening but it is a fucking stretch to me.

If you throw in his love for Padme and the impending doom he "knew" she would befall, that helps.... but why all the stubbornness when it came to accepting the ways and teachings of the Jedi, it's not like he came from an structured life as a slave where he had basically nothing and had to do things the way someone else wanted all the time or anything... oh wait, he did.

Maybe being a slave in the SW galaxy isn't what we know of being a slave, since he rebelled so hard against the structured life of a Jedi.

It just seems likely to me that the change came from Palpatine manipulating him for a decade plus, and not because he was always bad.

Precisely.

[Kurgan]

He might simply have been psychotic (no psychological screening in the Jedi Order? Maybe they brushed that aside because they were so wowed by his potential?), and it wasn't until he reached adulthood and was being given responsibility that it became apparent?

I know, that sounds again like he was destined to be a jerk. But then I think some people are predisposed to that kind of life, and so they have to work extra hard (or get the proper medication and therapy) to avoid it.


I don't know. Why do people become assholes in the real world? (And not every one of them becomes a killer.)


I'm tempted to prop up my pet theories with a throw-away reference to Frank Herbert here, and just say that when you have somebody who thinks they knows what's best for those around them and/or is held up as some kind of Messiah, those people can do a lot of harm, especially if they've got an ego problem.

So you take somebody who'd be a problem at work or at home and give him super powers. Boom, your problems have just multiplied exponentially.

Perhaps Anakin is just not the sort of guy who should have been trained. He'd have been better off being a professional race car driver.

Anakin's meltdown reminds me a bit of that old SNL sketch with Chris Farley... "Relapse Guy" in that the character he plays is a drunk, and the group therapy solution seems to be to keep forgiving him and giving him progressively more and more responsibility to demonstrate his sincerity that he's changed... and each time he screws up worse and worse, hurting more people in the process.

Now we can't blame everyone, because everyone didn't know of all the nasty things he was doing or the big mistakes he was making or the huge risks he was taking, but each person who knew him in turn, seems to have failed him... in that they should have stopped and said "this isn't right, this guy needs help, and by that I don't mean more responsibility."

I don't know... it's all kind of locked up tight now, but the character had a lot of potential to be developed, and now we're just kind of stuck with 6+ hours of this, like you say, from sweet kid to nutbag.

I think it's a more interesting story though if he's a guy who chose evil because it stroked his ego, rather than that he was just misunderstood with an unhappy childhood and that is the cause of all his problems, like he's not really responsible. Thus when he returns, it's also a conscious decision to stop being such an ass, rather than just a lucky accident or something. I'm getting tired so I might not be making sense anymore (if I ever was, hehe).