Fundy argument! Can someone help?

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2003-01-11 11:24am

Faith is not required to have morals or to live a moral life. Indeed, if you're subscribing to Christian Fundamentalist morals, then you're quite immoral as far as most people would be concerned. Religious bigotry, bigotry towards homosexuals, etc, etc.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-01-11 11:34am

Archaic` wrote:Faith is not required to have morals or to live a moral life. Indeed, if you're subscribing to Christian Fundamentalist morals, then you're quite immoral as far as most people would be concerned. Religious bigotry, bigotry towards homosexuals, etc, etc.

I'm not sure what type of behavior you attribute to 'fundamentaism' but if by that you mean that I think all sinners should see the light then I suppose I'm 'guilty' At the same time, I understand that salvation cannot be forced on anyone, it is their decision. Other religions, homosexuals, etc... are wrong and sinful, but it is their right to behave in such a fashion if they choose.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-11 11:51am

Falcon wrote:Other religions, homosexuals, etc... are wrong and sinfull...

Yep, Falcon is an ignorant fundie biggot and therefore immoral.

Soulman · Post by **Soulman** » 2003-01-11 12:44pm

Falcon wrote: Other religions, homosexuals, etc... are wrong and sinful

As is eating shell fish and crabs according to the bible (I'm sure someone here has the actual quote), a single crab stick can send you to hell...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 01:17pm

Fundies define "wrong and sinful" as anything which defies their repressive ideology. That's why they're worthless fuckwits.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-01-11 01:47pm

Soulman wrote:
Falcon wrote: Other religions, homosexuals, etc... are wrong and sinful
As is eating shell fish and crabs according to the bible (I'm sure someone here has the actual quote), a single crab stick can send you to hell...

No it can't, maybe you should bother to read the Bible before believing everything you hear.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 01:52pm

Falcon wrote:
Soulman wrote:
Falcon wrote: Other religions, homosexuals, etc... are wrong and sinful
As is eating shell fish and crabs according to the bible (I'm sure someone here has the actual quote), a single crab stick can send you to hell...
No it can't, maybe you should bother to read the Bible before believing everything you hear.

He's not making it up. Leviticus says shellfish are detestable to God, and you must not eat them.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-01-11 02:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:
Soulman wrote: As is eating shell fish and crabs according to the bible (I'm sure someone here has the actual quote), a single crab stick can send you to hell...
No it can't, maybe you should bother to read the Bible before believing everything you hear.
He's not making it up. Leviticus says shellfish are detestable to God, and you must not eat them.

Thats under the old law which doesn't apply to us today. My point was that if you read the Bible and take it out of context you can get a whole host of things which no longer have meaning.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 02:12pm

Falcon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:He's not making it up. Leviticus says shellfish are detestable to God, and you must not eat them.
Thats under the old law which doesn't apply to us today. My point was that if you read the Bible and take it out of context you can get a whole host of things which no longer have meaning.

Oh really? How about Mathew 5:17-19?

Jesus wrote:Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-01-11 02:46pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:He's not making it up. Leviticus says shellfish are detestable to God, and you must not eat them.
Thats under the old law which doesn't apply to us today. My point was that if you read the Bible and take it out of context you can get a whole host of things which no longer have meaning.
Oh really? How about Mathew 5:17-19?
Jesus wrote:Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Yes, and they were fulfilled, hence why we no longer have to make sacrifices, etc... We now follow the teachings of Jesus, not the law that Moses handed down.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-11 02:50pm

Yes, and they were fulfilled, hence why we no longer have to make sacrifices, etc... We now follow the teachings of Jesus, not the law that Moses handed down.

So the Ten Commandments are obsolate?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 03:04pm

Falcon wrote:Yes, and they were fulfilled, hence why we no longer have to make sacrifices, etc... We now follow the teachings of Jesus, not the law that Moses handed down.

Oh, we're already living in the Kingdom of God? The Rapture is upon us? Hallelujah!!

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-01-11 04:49pm

Sir Sirius wrote:
Yes, and they were fulfilled, hence why we no longer have to make sacrifices, etc... We now follow the teachings of Jesus, not the law that Moses handed down.
So the Ten Commandments are obsolate?

No, not really, but anything that was specifically set down for the Jews (sacrifices, rituals, etc...) don't apply anymore. Jesus fulfilled the law, doing away with the rituals of salvation that the Jews used as he became the ultimate go-between from man to God.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 04:54pm

Falcon wrote:No, not really, but anything that was specifically set down for the Jews (sacrifices, rituals, etc...) don't apply anymore. Jesus fulfilled the law, doing away with the rituals of salvation that the Jews used as he became the ultimate go-between from man to God.

Jesus said not one stroke of the pen would disappear from the old law until "everything has been done". Not everything has been done; the mythical Rapture is not upon us. The only thing that happened was that the Romans strung him up.

EDIT: and given the nature of your response, which relies heavily upon carefully interpreting an ambiguous portion of text, you are clearly wrong in acting as though there is an unambiguous denial of the law in the New Testament. Therefore, you should not be accusing people of not reading the Bible if they don't see this denial that you pluck from ambiguous semantics.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-01-11 05:35pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:No, not really, but anything that was specifically set down for the Jews (sacrifices, rituals, etc...) don't apply anymore. Jesus fulfilled the law, doing away with the rituals of salvation that the Jews used as he became the ultimate go-between from man to God.
Jesus said not one stroke of the pen would disappear from the old law until "everything has been done". Not everything has been done; the mythical Rapture is not upon us. The only thing that happened was that the Romans strung him up.

EDIT: and given the nature of your response, which relies heavily upon carefully interpreting an ambiguous portion of text, you are clearly wrong in acting as though there is an unambiguous denial of the law in the New Testament. Therefore, you should not be accusing people of not reading the Bible if they don't see this denial that you pluck from ambiguous semantics.

I'm not getting where this 'rapture' thing comes from. Once Jesus returns and takes those who are left the earth will end, no one will be left or some such sillyness.

All things be accomplished isn't referring to the end of time, its referring to Jesus' sacrifice. The old law has been put away, we follow Jesus by faith now. No more miracles, no more direct Godly intervention, just faith.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 06:19pm

Falcon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:No, not really, but anything that was specifically set down for the Jews (sacrifices, rituals, etc...) don't apply anymore. Jesus fulfilled the law, doing away with the rituals of salvation that the Jews used as he became the ultimate go-between from man to God.
Jesus said not one stroke of the pen would disappear from the old law until "everything has been done". Not everything has been done; the mythical Rapture is not upon us. The only thing that happened was that the Romans strung him up.

EDIT: and given the nature of your response, which relies heavily upon carefully interpreting an ambiguous portion of text, you are clearly wrong in acting as though there is an unambiguous denial of the law in the New Testament. Therefore, you should not be accusing people of not reading the Bible if they don't see this denial that you pluck from ambiguous semantics.
I'm not getting where this 'rapture' thing comes from. Once Jesus returns and takes those who are left the earth will end, no one will be left or some such sillyness.

All things be accomplished isn't referring to the end of time, its referring to Jesus' sacrifice. The old law has been put away, we follow Jesus by faith now. No more miracles, no more direct Godly intervention, just faith.

Don't you love the way fundies, when cornered, simply fall back on rote recitation of their beliefs?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-11 06:27pm

Jesus said not one stroke of the pen would disappear from the old law until "everything has been done". Not everything has been done; the mythical Rapture is not upon us. The only thing that happened was that the Romans strung him up.

IIRC, the 'Rapture' is only mentioned in Revelations, which was written years after Jesus died, hence the likely possibilty that the 'Rapture' which was, according to Revelations, coming soon, existed only in the mind of it's (mortal) creator, and thus really had nothing to do with Jesus' fulfillment of the OT prophecies at all.

Or not!

-vanishes in a flash of light-

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-11 08:09pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
Jesus said not one stroke of the pen would disappear from the old law until "everything has been done". Not everything has been done; the mythical Rapture is not upon us. The only thing that happened was that the Romans strung him up.
IIRC, the 'Rapture' is only mentioned in Revelations, which was written years after Jesus died, hence the likely possibilty that the 'Rapture' which was, according to Revelations, coming soon, existed only in the mind of it's (mortal) creator, and thus really had nothing to do with Jesus' fulfillment of the OT prophecies at all.

Or not!

-vanishes in a flash of light-

Particularly since the Book of Revelation According to John is an apocalyptica, a Jewish style of writing that couched current events in symbolism signifying the end of the world. The numbered beast is Caesar Nero. (Interesting fact: there are 2 numbers of the beast, 666 and 616. One translates to Caesar Nero and the other to Caesar Neron. Caesar Nero is the Greek translation of Nero's name, and Neron is the Hebrew. The manuscripts, AFAIK, with the various numbers have been found in Jewish or Gentile settlements according to the identification of Nero).

Revelation is about the persecution of early Christianity in Rome, where it was illegal for over 300 years. It's interesting in a literary sense because it is one of the last apocalypses that we have, and it is so similar in many ways to earlier Jewish apocalyptic books.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-12 01:54am

Nonsense. The Bible's claims are bullshit and science has shown them to be so, therfore Judeo-Christian God=bullshit.

If you take the bible literally (as Fundies do, at least in the case of Genesis), then yes, science has disproved the creation story(or stories).

Of course, most Christians don't take the story literally anyway, so it wouldn't matter to them one bit. They haven't stopped believing in their God.

Anybody that claims "if the genesis story is not literally true, then my God doesn't exist" then yes, its been proved (reasonably) that their religion is false. Of course, if God exists, who are they to make such abosolute claims about him/her/it?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-12 01:57am

That's another good point... Catholics, the largest Christian group doesn't have that fundy problem: accepting both evolutionary theory, the big bang, and that the Bible has metaphorical/symbolic elements.

Of course there's still things like miracles, God, etc that secular non-theist skeptics still reject, and social teachings that liberals often attack.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-12 02:03am

Falcon, you sound like my Jehovah's Witness interpreter at school...

Alkondoion · Post by **Alkondoion** » 2003-01-12 07:13pm

Superman wrote:Ok, I recently had a fundy try to tell me about the principle of causation. Because of this, she said, the universe must have been created. I naturally asked who created god, and she said that since he exists outside of time... blah blah blah

My question is this: Can someone explain to me a)what causation actually is and b) how it applies to the origins of the universe? I have a rematch scheduled and any help would be appreciated.

Thanks people!

Okay, 'M' Theory. Learn what this is and you have your 'fundie argument repellent spray'.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-16 04:24am

Falcon wrote: All things be accomplished isn't referring to the end of time, its referring to Jesus' sacrifice. The old law has been put away, we follow Jesus by faith now. No more miracles, no more direct Godly intervention, just faith.

No need to prove anything then eh? No evidence will ever be forthcoming either from the way you state it. My, Isn't that convenient...

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-16 11:47am

Kurgan wrote:That's another good point... Catholics, the largest Christian group doesn't have that fundy problem: accepting both evolutionary theory, the big bang, and that the Bible has metaphorical/symbolic elements.

Of course there's still things like miracles, God, etc that secular non-theist skeptics still reject, and social teachings that liberals often attack.

Ah, but the Catholics aren't "true Christians" according to the fundies. The Catholics have betrayed God by accepting "evil teachings" like evolution, etc. According to the fundies, anyone who doesn't interpret the Bible exactly the same way they do is going to
hell.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-01-16 12:40pm

Falcon wrote:You should have faith because of the rich rewards and personal satisfaction to be gained by living a moral life.

I would dispute this, as I live a moral life precisely by not being a Christian or following the Bible.

By the way, hope you never sunk so low as to cut your hair or shave your beard on the sides; it's against the Bible. And remember to treat your slaves nicely; as long as they hail from a different country, the Bible has no problem with you having them.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Fundy argument! Can someone help?

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