English society fails math

[CaptainChewbacca]

From another site, there's no link, I'm afraid.

Cool Cash' card confusion
Ciara Leeming
3/11/2007

A LOTTERY scratchcard has been withdrawn from sale by Camelot - because players couldn't understand it.

The Cool Cash game - launched on Monday - was taken out of shops yesterday after some players failed to grasp whether or not they had won.

To qualify for a prize, users had to scratch away a window to reveal a temperature lower than the figure displayed on each card. As the game had a winter theme, the temperature was usually below freezing.

But the concept of comparing negative numbers proved too difficult for some Camelot received dozens of complaints on the first day from players who could not understand how, for example, -5 is higher than -6.

Tina Farrell, from Levenshulme, called Camelot after failing to win with several cards.

The 23-year-old, who said she had left school without a maths GCSE, said: "On one of my cards it said I had to find temperatures lower than -8. The numbers I uncovered were -6 and -7 so I thought I had won, and so did the woman in the shop. But when she scanned the card the machine said I hadn't.

"I phoned Camelot and they fobbed me off with some story that -6 is higher - not lower - than -8 but I'm not having it.

"I think Camelot are giving people the wrong impression - the card doesn't say to look for a colder or warmer temperature, it says to look for a higher or lower number. Six is a lower number than 8. Imagine how many people have been misled."

A Camelot spokeswoman said the game was withdrawn after reports that some players had not understood the concept.

She said: "The instructions for playing the Cool Cash scratchcard are clear - and are printed on each individual card and in the game procedures available at each retailer. However, because of the potential for player confusion we have decided to withdraw the game."

More than 15m adults in Britain have poor numeracy - the equivalent of a G or below at GCSE maths

Almost three times as many UK adults (15.1m) have poor numeracy - the equivalent of a G or below at GCSE maths - than with poor literacy skills, according to the government's Skills for Life survey.

Peter Hall, of the Association of Teachers of Mathematics, said: "The concept of minus numbers is something we would cover with 11 or 12 year olds, and we would expect them to have come across it before.

"The concept of smaller numbers is something that some people do seem to struggle with. Seven is clearly smaller than eight, so they focus on that and don't really see the minus sign. There is also a subtle difference in language between smaller - or lower - and colder. The number zero feels lower.

"There have always been some people who find numbers and basic mathematics difficult. Maybe in the past it was less noticeable because people could find jobs they could excel in without having qualifications in maths."

Could a UK boardmember explain what a 'g' level skill is in mathematics? I'd make more fun of your country, but the fact is in America nobody even TRIED to use negative numbers in lotto scratchers.

[Kanastrous]

Lotteries have always been a good barometer of how can't-do-math stoopid any given population has become...

[Darth Wong]

I once tutored a high-school kid who didn't understand negative numbers. This doesn't surprise me at all. The fact is that the educational system just doesn't sufficiently punish people who can't do math, and that's related to the massive surplus of artsies in the profession. That problem exists in all western societies right now.

[Kanastrous]

I absolutely sucked at math, in grade school...and my father, who wasn't that much better at it, 'tutored' me, which was frequently terrifying, because he used to be pretty short-tempered...

...and the turnaround came when we got into negative numbers, which I got, and he didn't.

That was a good feeling.

[Molyneux]

I don't remember a time when I didn't have at least an intuitive understanding of negative numbers.

That these people can get through a public school system without knowledge of one of the basics of arithmetic is disheartening...

[salixfire]

Could a UK boardmember explain what a 'g' level skill is in mathematics? I'd make more fun of your country, but the fact is in America nobody even TRIED to use negative numbers in lotto scratchers.

The grading system works from A* being the highest level then A, B, C and onwards down to G. Though I thought it stopped at F and the only thing lower was a U which meant ungraded (either from being so bad not to even warrent being marked to not turning up for the exam without due cause).

I really didn't think that people could get away without knowing negative numbers as you see them quite often in things like weather reports. However, I agree with Darth Wong in that the educational system doesnt punish people who can't do math.

[Admiral Valdemar]

There is no G grade. What Chewie refers to is GCSE maths, which is a secondary school qualification all 16-year-olds should have. It is the highest academic qualification that is mandatory before you leave school the same year.

I sucked at maths too, but I still got a high pass and can still grasp that -6 degrees is lower than -5. You damn well don't feel warmer at -40 than -1.

[Lisa]

I learned about negative numbers when I was 6 years old. In class (grade 1) I tried to bring them up only to have the teacher try to say there were no such thing... to this day I hope she just did not want to have to explain them to the class that was barely doing addition (i can't remember if we did subtraction then too)

[brianeyci]

Man, I thought all lotteries had a "skill testing question." If they don't understand negative numbers how do they expect to understand x * (y + z) or -12 * (5 + 3) or even *gasp* exponents?

[PeZook]

I wept.

Sometimes, I think we could do without 90% of humans on the planet.

What worth do they represent? If they are too goddamned stupid to understand simple things like these, what can they really contribute to the betterment of humanity?

Wage-slave labor at most. This is tragic.

[Mayabird]

Ah, the classic tax on people who fail at math. This time it's just a little more blatant than others.

Indeed, I also had elementary school teachers who didn't understand the concept of negative numbers. They might've tried to explain it away later by saying that they didn't want to "confuse" us (which is a bad excuse anyway), but they really, honestly didn't. It went like this:

Teacher: And you can't subtract a bigger number from a smaller number!
Adorably cute seven year old me: Yes you can! Then you get negative numbers.
Teacher: *blank look* What?

I sometimes wonder if people get into debt trouble partially because they can't comprehend, for whatever reason (bad teaching, negligent parents, brain damaged from candy additives), the concept of less than nothing. They just don't honestly get what being in debt really means or what those red numbers with the minus sign in front of them means. After all, I never did see that teacher (or most the rest of my idiot elementary school teachers) wearing the same clothes twice. Always had a new coat, shirt, whatever, and there's no way they could afford to get an entirely new wardrobe every day on a teacher's salary.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Found the article

I think the worst thing is the woman at the counter AGREED she should win.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

How can you not get negative numbers. It's pretty basic, and I am not fantastic at math. If you have 3 dollars and someone demands four dollars, you lose all three plus one floater that is a debt. It never existed, but it was subtracted from the account as credit. They lend themselves to pretty concrete representations in examples.

Punishment is a tricky issue. Depending on your goal for education, and depending on what you mean by the term. You could be using it as a Behaviourist. If then, it would certainly work if there's a behavioural issue causing poor math achievement, but not if it's some natural problem for the population such as intelligence limitations. Punishment would do little to increase performance and educate. Punishment can be used to eliminate undesirable behaioviours that are amenable to change due to voluntary actions.

A lot of the math teachers I had as a kid would use punishment for people who weren't good at math. Punishment is far less effective than reinforcement, though, in changing behaviour. It's usually more temporary too. A lot of the teachers misapplied punishment though, or had poor pedagogy, in my High School. For instance, when they taught math,
they didn't explain anything or do any hands-on work or give the rationale for it. They didn't indicate how something was done; they focused on memorization and mechanics. It was never tied to practical use. We know now you shouldn't do that, but the bad part of education is that if you fuck up teaching, your do-over "fix" for the next group doesn't help the previous group.

[Kanastrous]

A lot of the math teachers I had as a kid would use punishment for people who weren't good at math. Punishment is far less effective than reinforcement, though, in changing behaviour.

True. I had spectacularly shitty math teachers in public school, but when my folks sprang for a tutor who was a really excellent teacher (and probably would have been excellent, regardless of the subject he was teaching) my math skills improved immensely, and kept improving all the way to college.

[Darth Servo]

I remember being bored shitless with grade school math, the way they tailored the whole class to the lowest common denominator. My older brother was taking Algebra 1 when I was in 3rd grade and I could do his homework. Meanwhile the dumbshits in the class couldn't understand words like "subtract" or "minus" and neede the teacher to say "take away" to realize what the question was asking.

[Darth Servo]

Lotteries have always been a good barometer of how can't-do-math stoopid any given population has become...

Of course, one does need to account for the fact that your average lottery player is an idiot.

Hey morons, if you don't want your money, give it to me!!!

[Exileman]

Oddly, having worked in a gas station in the states, I remember selling those. 2 different winters. The difference was celsius and Fahrenheit. Since America uses bigger numbers (you didn't see a temp on the card below 10) it was easier.

In regards to people not grasping negative numbers, it really is an issue of teaching. Many of you have expressed anguish and anger at the fact that
some people don't get a mathematical concept.

I wept.

Sometimes, I think we could do without 90% of humans on the planet.

What worth do they represent? If they are too goddamned stupid to understand simple things like these, what can they really contribute to the betterment of humanity?

Wage-slave labor at most. This is tragic.

Realistically, everyone here is of above average intelligience. We grasp concepts such as negative numbers rather easily. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone else is worthless or somehow worthy of punishement. If you feel that bad about it, go into teaching. I've recently started tutoring fully grown adults who are attempting to get their GED. My focus is math. Most of the students I have are average people. Once I explain the concept to them, many of them pick up on it right away. The others simply require a different explanation. These are people I had to explain everything beyond addition and subtraction to. Between the ages of 25 and my oldest is in his 40's. I asked them why they wanted me to tutor them (it started off as just for a friend and sorta grew) and they said that the teacher of the class only spends a few minutes in class on each concept and generally doesn't explain it that well. It's not even the teachers fault IMO, because s/he has a job to do. I have a group of 5. S/he has a group of 40. It's similar all over. So, if you all feel that bad about it, volunteer as a substitute teacher, or a tutor. Improve the situation instead of just bemoaning it.

[Teebs]

Could a UK boardmember explain what a 'g' level skill is in mathematics? I'd make more fun of your country, but the fact is in America nobody even TRIED to use negative numbers in lotto scratchers.

I know a partial explanation has already been given, but maths GCSEs (exams at 16) are graded from A* to G with G anything below that being a fail. The example I can remember of a maths teacher showing my class a G grade question was "What shape is this?" with a picture of a sphere. I think he was using it to demonstrate poor listening in class or something because whoever answered it had written 'sofia'.

[Kanastrous]

Now, that doesn't mean that everyone else is worthless or somehow worthy of punishement.

I can't speak for Darth Wong's intended meaning, but it seems to me that if you fail to learn basic math concepts, your 'punishment' will be the life-long consequences of being unable to balance a checkbook, or manage your credit...which is to say, you might find yourself getting mighty poor, mighty fast, for lack of an ability to grasp what those very important numbers are doing.

[Darth Wong]

Obviously, I was talking about academic punishment, ie- failing grades. It's amazing how lenient school systems are with math skills.

[Junghalli]

Realistically, everyone here is of above average intelligience. We grasp concepts such as negative numbers rather easily.

The notion that it takes "above average intelligence" to grasp the concept negative numbers easily is possibly the most depressing idea I've heard all year. It's a simple concept, even a ten year old could probably get it. And I say that as somebody who whips out the calculator to do 7 X 14: I suck at math.

It's especially depressing since the problem we're talking about here deals with degrees below zero, which has to be the most intuitive application of negative numbers possible. It's terrifying to imagine how stupid and ignorant somebody would have to be to seriously have trouble with the concept that eight degrees below freezing is colder than six degrees below freezing.

[Darth Servo]

The notion that it takes "above average intelligence" to grasp the concept negative numbers easily is possibly the most depressing idea I've heard all year. It's a simple concept, even a ten year old could probably get it. And I say that as somebody who whips out the calculator to do 7 X 14: I suck at math.

What would you say about someone who whips out the calculator to do 3 + 4? (true story, mom tutored such a person once)

[Zac Naloen]

She left school without a maths GCSE. Which basically means she got less than a D.

In other words, she's a fucking idiot. I could have done my maths GCSE with one hand tied behind my back and half my brain switched off, and I know I suck at maths beyond basic algebra.

[Kanastrous]

Every time I see the thread title, I think, sure, but the math society probably didn't do so well at English, either...

[Teebs]

I was arguably the best in my year at maths, I also got A*s in English (admittedly I had to work rather harder for them)