Tanks vs. Mechs: 1941 Force Sub Part 3

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-16 01:09pm

SAMAS wrote:Not quite. Look at the first Screenshot I posted.

Here it is again.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... sc1497.jpg
Copy and paste to a new window to see it.

Like Wong said, the Lightning Saix would have to be a blur to be moving that fast. Well, the Saix is about one or two frames from going that fast, and it's already starting to blur.

He's lunging in that screencap, not running. There is a difference. And second, one screen cap doesn't mean to much since we can't tell the stride rate. Just a little blurring when he seems to be lunging, falling, or some other activity.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-01-16 01:24pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SAMAS wrote:Not quite. Look at the first Screenshot I posted.

Here it is again.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... sc1497.jpg
Copy and paste to a new window to see it.

Like Wong said, the Lightning Saix would have to be a blur to be moving that fast. Well, the Saix is about one or two frames from going that fast, and it's already starting to blur.
He's lunging in that screencap, not running. There is a difference. And second, one screen cap doesn't mean to much since we can't tell the stride rate. Just a little blurring when he seems to be lunging, falling, or some other activity.

You say that as if you had seen the episode. Of course, if you had, either we wouldn't be having this argument, or you're lying through your teeth.

Either that, or you're mistaking your Zoids. Just in case, the Lightning Saix is the one on the left. The one doing the lunging is the Liger Zero Jaeger.

Unless you're claiming that the Lightning Saix can lunge at 325 kph. Like I said, that is the beginning of his sprint. He's just about to put on a burst of speed to avoid the Jaeger's attack. In other words, it not only has the speed, but can accellerate at a rediculous rate.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-16 01:46pm

SAMAS wrote: Not quite. Look at the first Screenshot I posted.

Here it is again.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... sc1497.jpg
Copy and paste to a new window to see it.

Like Wong said, the Lightning Saix would have to be a blur to be moving that fast. Well, the Saix is about one or two frames from going that fast, and it's already starting to blur.

And that proves the stride rate how? All it shows is some blurring when it might or might not be running.

For all we know and can tell from that he's falling over.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-16 02:46pm

ok... first about the stride issue, I think one bit of terminology needs to be clear, but I dont know exactly how to go about it. We need to define wether or not we are talking about individual leg 'steps' or or the total movement of all the legs as a cycle or 'stride'... ie an AT-AT needs to make 4 leg steps or a single stride cycle in one second to move at a speed of 15m/s (54kph).

thats to avoid any unnecessary confusion...

now, as to the relationship between stride length, stride rate and running speed... I suppose that barring the issue of ground pressure there is something we might be overlooking, and that would be a closer look at the various phases of the stride -- for want of better terms I will call them the backstroke (when the leg moves down and back to make contact & pushoff), release (post pushoff, sees leg reach maximum rear extension) and return (where the leg is brought back forward in prep for another cycle).

oops... forgot to mention that the forelegs on any quadruped -- especially those capable of a running stride -- are in fact not legs, but arms and dont serve in a propulsive capacity, but rather one of stabilization & guidance.

Beleive it or not, it might be an overestimate to say that these mecha need to cycle thru strides at a rate of 19/sec to make 200kph... we have been assuming a constant leg 'speed' thru each phase of the stride cycle, when in reality such a thing never occurs in a running gait, where the animal/vehicle in question is only in contact with the ground for literally a miniscule fraction of the stride (the instant of contact & pushoff... note that the AT-AT is incapable of a running gait due to a number of factors like MASS and leg/foot design). What is absolute though is that, during the backstroke phase, the contact patch of the leg(s) have to be accelerated to match or exceed the vehicles groundspeed by the time of contact, depending on wether it intends to maintain speed or accelerate. the duration & speed of the rest of the cycle depends upon how long the vehicle remains in the air between contacts, which would be affected by the force vector components of the pushoff (up/forward), gravity, and extra 'assistance' such as thrusters or lifting surfaces... without 'assistance', mass, gravity and the resultant ground pressure issues come to the fore, as GP will be astoundingly high when under acceleration (not that it wouldnt be in general due to the need to constantly acclerate against drag once above 100kph)

Back to my original point... to get a more reasonable stride rate (but still very fast considering the size of these things) of from 2 to 4 per second, the typical zoid when running would have to cover between 20 and 45 meters between ground contacts to get 200kph -- more to get 300. From what I have seen of the Liger specs, that is between 1 and 2 body lengths. I still say such a vehicle wouldnt be practical, but such a movement profile is mechanically feasible (theoretically) given materials able to withstand the punishment... lower mass would really help here (although power is still out there somewhere).

I just sort of threw this together... forgive the rambling...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-16 06:07pm

SAMAS wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
SAMAS wrote:Not quite. Look at the first Screenshot I posted.

Here it is again.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... sc1497.jpg
Copy and paste to a new window to see it.

Like Wong said, the Lightning Saix would have to be a blur to be moving that fast. Well, the Saix is about one or two frames from going that fast, and it's already starting to blur.
He's lunging in that screencap, not running. There is a difference. And second, one screen cap doesn't mean to much since we can't tell the stride rate. Just a little blurring when he seems to be lunging, falling, or some other activity.
You say that as if you had seen the episode. Of course, if you had, either we wouldn't be having this argument, or you're lying through your teeth.

Either that, or you're mistaking your Zoids. Just in case, the Lightning Saix is the one on the left. The one doing the lunging is the Liger Zero Jaeger.

I do mean the one on the left. It looks like he's lunging for the one on the right to me.

And that still doesn't prove the stride rate as I said.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-01-16 06:22pm

SAMAS wrote:Actually, I think it might accellerate faster than that.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... sc1497.jpg

That's a scene of a Lightning Saix putting on a burst of speed to avoid an attack. This is like half a second before he leaves the screen. If I remember right, this secne was done in slow motion right up to this point, where the Lightning Saix does a virtual disappearing act.

Accelerate faster than 0-325kph in two seconds? You've got to be kidding!

Unfortunately, I can't see the pics right now, since you've busted your angelfire limit for the day. I'll try to look later.

But I agree. I don't think they're physically possible. But to use them in a debate, it has to be a given that they are capable of the stuff they are shown doing.

I'm assuming that the materials to make the mech are all possible and used to construct it. However, what I'm concerned about is another problem, the ground. I seriously doubt that any material on the surface of the Earth could support that sort of pressure. In other words, these robots would be tremendous digging machines, and not much else. Try climbing up a steep hill made of loose sand or a lot of small rocks and loose dirt and see how far you get with no solid footing. Now watch an ant climb the same hill with no trouble whatsoever.

Well, the Geno Saurer/Breaker don't count, as they use hover engines to move that fast.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... dsc258.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/darkzoi ... dsc417.jpg

Fair enough then.

I dunno, but they have it.

They'd practically need a shell of solid neutronium covering the entire planet in order to allow these monstrosities to move around like that, it's insane. Moving 65 tons from 0-325 kph in under two seconds with just 6 square meters (or less) to work with? Great Scott!

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-16 07:08pm

not to mention the fact that they only have a tiny fraction of their stride cycle to actually apply the force necessary to do that acceleration... thus effectively multiplying the force/time issue. If they were smaller, and weighed in at more sane levels of around 10-20 tons, then I would be inclined to think they might be doable...

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-16 07:10pm

but still... 0-325kph in 2 seconds is a bit much. 0-60 sure, 0-100 possibly. after that there is no way.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-16 10:27pm

SAMAS wrote:Like Wong said, the Lightning Saix would have to be a blur to be moving that fast. Well, the Saix is about one or two frames from going that fast, and it's already starting to blur.

Its legs look perfectly sharp to me. Why aren't its legs blurred? Look at a car in motion: what's the first thing that starts to blur? Its body, or the spokes in its wheels?

Since anime is drawn rather than photographed, this is just artistic license. It certainly doesn't look like the legs are churning so fast that they're blurring; I remind you that in anime, humans routinely move in such a manner that the background blurs.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-01-16 10:41pm

Shaka[Zulu] wrote:not to mention the fact that they only have a tiny fraction of their stride cycle to actually apply the force necessary to do that acceleration... thus effectively multiplying the force/time issue. If they were smaller, and weighed in at more sane levels of around 10-20 tons, then I would be inclined to think they might be doable...

but still... 0-325kph in 2 seconds is a bit much. 0-60 sure, 0-100 possibly. after that there is no way.

0-100 kph in roughly 2 seconds is roughly what cheetahs are capable of. Really souped-up cars can pull 0-100 kph in about 3 seconds under good conditions. If these mecha can pull 0-325 kph in <2 seconds, using just their legs (no wheels, jet/rocket assist, etc.) it's completely out of the question, I would think. Not to mention the G-force applied on the poor pilot, who would likely get squashed into jelly without some magic G-force protection.

Put them on Earth, and watch them tear up the terrain trying to go at top speed. I figure they'll dig a hole straight to the Earth's core, then just sit there, unable to move.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-16 10:51pm

To accelerate a "Lightning Saix" to 325 km/h in 2 seconds, you would need roughly 4.5 G's forward acceleration. For its supposedly 65 ton mass, you would need around 3 MN. This is a serious problem in terms of ground friction: dragsters only pull around 4 G's, and their ground contact patch is heated rubber so soft that you can't re-use those tires, in addition to being huge in relation to their mass. To achieve this kind of friction with relatively miniscule ground contact area, low coefficient of friction, and enormous mass is beyond ludicrous. As noted previously, all it would do is churn rock.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-16 11:16pm

Darth Wong wrote: Its legs look perfectly sharp to me. Why aren't its legs blurred? Look at a car in motion: what's the first thing that starts to blur? Its body, or the spokes in its wheels?

Since anime is drawn rather than photographed, this is just artistic license. It certainly doesn't look like the legs are churning so fast that they're blurring; I remind you that in anime, humans routinely move in such a manner that the background blurs.

Artistic liscense it may be, but the wheel analogy doesnt fit in this case... in this particular circumstance, with the saix just beginning to accelerate from a standstill, the legs havent yet established any stride pattern -- the hind legs are just pushing off into the first cycle, and are thus stationary relative to the effect their propulsive force is having on the body as a whole, thus the blurring... it is way too much blur however given the velocities at the time (that exaggeration is the artistic liscense)

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-16 11:20pm

Darth Wong wrote:To accelerate a "Lightning Saix" to 325 km/h in 2 seconds, you would need roughly 4.5 G's forward acceleration. For its supposedly 65 ton mass, you would need around 3 MN. This is a serious problem in terms of ground friction: dragsters only pull around 4 G's, and their ground contact patch is heated rubber so soft that you can't re-use those tires, in addition to being huge in relation to their mass. To achieve this kind of friction with relatively miniscule ground contact area, low coefficient of friction, and enormous mass is beyond ludicrous. As noted previously, all it would do is churn rock.

it gets worse Mike... add in the limited contact duration for effective propulsion and it really starts to get ugly! Like I said before... 10 to 20 metric tonnes tops and it might be believable.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-01-16 11:21pm

Shaka[Zulu] wrote:I doubt it would be a boom... more like the pressure wave you get when a tractor-trailer passes you (standing still) doing 60-90mph. there is NO WAY any zoid could create a mach cone.

Well it was causing a visible distortion and shockwave.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-01-16 11:26pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Or a tank and attack heilcopter, which would cost less while being more efffective. Mecha are all about form over function.

Those are ground units, the aerial ones are faster with Redlers and Storm Sworders clocking in at Mach 3 IIRC.

Also on a few occasions we've seen the Zero Jaeger seemingly teleport to the side to avoid weapons fire

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-17 09:05am

And how would the zoid aerial units do trying to hit a target at mach 3 even today with mach 2 fighters they usuallly travel sub mach to dogfight and attack targets

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-01-17 09:38am

Typhonis 1 wrote:And how would the zoid aerial units do trying to hit a target at mach 3 even today with mach 2 fighters they usuallly travel sub mach to dogfight and attack targets

Usually, they don't. Or they possibly use missiles.

You're all forgetting one important thing. The speeds given are the maximum speeds for the Zoids. The actual speeds used during combat will vary wildly, from a standstill to short bursts at max speed.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-17 01:33pm

SAMAS wrote:.
You're all forgetting one important thing. The speeds given are the maximum speeds for the Zoids. The actual speeds used during combat will vary wildly, from a standstill to short bursts at max speed.

yeah thats true... we need to remember that maximum rated speeds for any vehicle are typically specified under ideal conditions meaning no extra loads like cargo or external payloads (minimum mass, no extra drag), ideal surfaces (like salt lakes or dry lake beds for speed runs) etc.

to get off of zoids for a minute for an example, my avatar the YF-19 from Macross Plus is rated as being capable of a max running speed (in soldier mode) of 192kph, however this run speed is never seen, as most times when a veritech wants to 'run' fast in soldier mode it will use thrusters to skim just above the ground (when you have unlimited thruster endurance in atmosphere that is the only way to go). I figure that at best it can do an average of half that under normal operating conditions and loads (only approaching the max when it has completely expended it's weaponry, and then only under 'ideal' environmental conditions) -- considering the vast difference between its' unloaded mass of 8.5 metric tons and it's max takeoff weight in atmosphere of just under 40 metric tons that seems reasonable.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-01-17 05:46pm

SAMAS wrote:You're all forgetting one important thing. The speeds given are the maximum speeds for the Zoids. The actual speeds used during combat will vary wildly, from a standstill to short bursts at max speed.

Again, there is no possible way for these Zoids to reach those speeds, because there is no way that the ground could support them accelerating at such absurd rates, much less even maintaining those speeds. Why bother making a machine that couldn't work to specs under any real conditions? Even short bursts of speed would do little more than digging a hole and falling flat on its face. Even assuming that the tech required to make the Zoids is possible, there is no planet even remotely human-habitable that could allow such absurdities to work.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-01-19 06:28pm

Just to make a comment from the Peanut Gallery:

I love these threads, and this one's especially funny since I don't watch the series and can just listen to the different arguments made and not have a specific one of my own.

Most people who watch series or play games with mechs in them tell themselves that artistic liscencing is being used to depict giant robots being unrealsitically efficient and effective in their intended roles, and leave it at that. I did, and I still enjoy them (I've even got a game deisgn or two under wraps that use mechs).

But noooo, SAMAS and friends don't leave it at that. Somehow, they conclude that they have to argue that these mechs can be objectively efficient and effective in the real world! Good gravy, your favorite series doesn't have to be able to whoop everything else's ass for you to still like it. Is this the same driving force that makes rabid trekkies uphold pseudoscience to defend their favorite series?

Maybe it has to do with mothers telling their kids they are 'special' rather than unique, or maybe I'm just bizzarely humble about my stuff. Oh well, I better get back to playing 3-year-old computer games now.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-19 10:57pm

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:Just to make a comment from the Peanut Gallery:

I love these threads, and this one's especially funny since I don't watch the series and can just listen to the different arguments made and not have a specific one of my own.

Most people who watch series or play games with mechs in them tell themselves that artistic liscencing is being used to depict giant robots being unrealsitically efficient and effective in their intended roles, and leave it at that. I did, and I still enjoy them (I've even got a game deisgn or two under wraps that use mechs).

But noooo, SAMAS and friends don't leave it at that. Somehow, they conclude that they have to argue that these mechs can be objectively efficient and effective in the real world! Good gravy, your favorite series doesn't have to be able to whoop everything else's ass for you to still like it. Is this the same driving force that makes rabid trekkies uphold pseudoscience to defend their favorite series?

Maybe it has to do with mothers telling their kids they are 'special' rather than unique, or maybe I'm just bizzarely humble about my stuff. Oh well, I better get back to playing 3-year-old computer games now.

Aaaahhhh, but it is just this sort of 'yes it can/no it cant' argument over what most people consider (often times pointless when it comes to sci-fi) entertainment that leads to great things... granted not necessarily in the form the author originally imagined but great things nonetheless. For how long was the idea of spaceflight considered 'pointless entertainment' that could never happen? I rest my case...

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-19 10:59pm

WAY OT here, but Shaka, is that a VF-19 in your avatar?

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-20 12:02am

why yes it is... well actually I prefer to think of it as a YF-19 or VF-19A... I prefer the aesthetics of the prototype & the A model to the S versions.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-01-20 01:06am

Shaka[Zulu] wrote:Aaaahhhh, but it is just this sort of 'yes it can/no it cant' argument over what most people consider (often times pointless when it comes to sci-fi) entertainment that leads to great things... For how long was the idea of spaceflight considered 'pointless entertainment' that could never happen? I rest my case...

(Bolding/italics mine)

....

Sweet Chim-Chim, somebody please tell me he didn't just prove my point that easilly.

I should find it funny, but I'm quite shocked beyond words. Someone else comment on it, becasue all I can respond to him with is:

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-01-20 03:01am

Darth Utsanomiko:

Your insult is neither warranted or funny, and you obviously missed my point between your 'most people dont take it seriously so neither should you' bulls**t.