(Peak Oil)What's wrong with electric cars now?

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

I have noticed something in the PO discussions: nobody seems to ever suggest that auto-makers start mass producing these cars and developing the technology in anticipation of the crisis.

So out of curiosity, what is wrong with the technology as it stands now? Too expensive? Too short a range?

[Sea Skimmer]

Safe, affordable batteries don’t have enough juice to do the job. As the Tesla Motors car shows, you can build an awesome electric car (acceleration had to be electronically limited!) if you don’t mind spending 250,000 dollars on it.

What is more, and more important, you still need a source of electricity to charge those cars up with. The fear about peak oil should not be seen as not having gasoline, plenty of other liquid and gas fuels exist which can replace it; you can adapt any internal combustion engine to run on propane or hydrogen for example. Rather the issue is simply that oil provides an immense quantity energy for the global economy at a minimal cost (even when its 100 bucks a barrel) and this energy cannot be easily replaced. Electric cars are more efficient energy uses, but that also consume tremendous amounts of energy in manufacturing, which is reflected in the higher cost of the vehicle.

[Kanastrous]

And the plants that produce the electricity that charges the electric cars' batteries, are still in large part fossil-fuelled.

[Ted C]

I have noticed something in the PO discussions: nobody seems to ever suggest that auto-makers start mass producing these cars and developing the technology in anticipation of the crisis.

So out of curiosity, what is wrong with the technology as it stands now? Too expensive? Too short a range?

To my knowledge...

• Electric cars are still more expensive to make.
• They lack the range of a typical gasoline engine with a full fuel tank.
• Recharging the battery takes hours.

These attributes make them more difficult to operate than conventional cars.

[Elaro]

[*]Electric cars are still more expensive to make.

Would mass-manufacturing bring those costs down?

[Flagg]

I was under the impression that the batteries were alot more technologically advanced at this point and could perform just as well as Hybrid ones.

But as has been stated before, the problem is powering them, and we're still mostly using coal and oil. Though supposedly there would be less polution and carbon emissions with electirc cars.

Of course the best solution is to switch from mostly fossil fuels, to mostly nuclear power plants and then start phasing out coal and oil alltogether to be replaced with wind, tidal, and solar power. That way we are primarily nuclear, supplimented by renewables. And at some point we'd probably be able to phase out most nuclear plants in favor of advanced renewables.

But we have such an aversion to nuclear power in this country that I don't think it will ever happn.

[Kanastrous]

Somebody ought to hire a good PR firm and start pushing the virtues of pebble-bed reactors...

[Old Peculier]

What sort of supply do we have for the chemicals batteries use? How high could that supply reach to meet a demand? How long would it last?

Slightly off topic: would the logistics of hydrogen fuel be easier (ignore exploding cars for now) if mains electricity could be used to get hydrogen from mains water at fuel stations?

[Drowsong]

And the plants that produce the electricity that charges the electric cars' batteries, are still in large part fossil-fuelled.

The way I understand it, is that to convert ALL our current cars to more efficient ones, it would be incedibly expensive (from the perspective of money or oil).



As for the Peak Oil stuff in general, I have a question for anyone interested: Is LATOC a reliable site, in genearl? Sorry if this is a repeat question.

[Drowsong]

Ghetto edit: incredibly expensive.

Not incedibly.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Personally, I'm not so much concerned with personal cars as I am with the trucks that carry stuff I want (that is, food and milk and the stuff the farmers need to produce that) to where I can get it.

Can electric trucks be made to replace the current infrastructure to a degree (hopefully alongside electric trains)?

If you're willing to accept limited range and reduced cargo hauling capacity (since an electric truck has to devote more of it's mass to batteries and less of it's mass to cargo space,) then yes, you could replace current trucks with electric ones. You could also mandate that trains, trucks, mass-transit, military, and law-enforcement are the only ones who can legally use fossil-fuels and force cities to contract around rail lines as much as possible. Partly through making it economically unfeasible to live in exurban McMansions and drive three SUVs per household (the latter would become illegal anyway,) and partly through gunpoint as you conscript former service-industry people to build the massive increase in rail lines and nuclear plants needed to keep the power on and industry going.

And to address the OP, if we were to replace every private vehicle on the road today with electric vehicles tomorrow, sure we'd reduce demand on oil, because the garden-variety ICE transforms a little under 40% of the energy it consumes into useful mechanical output. However, batteries aren't cheap to produce, as far as materials and energy inputs go, and we're merely shuffling the extravagant energy waste of personal automobiles from burning fossil fuels in the combustion chambers of modern cars, to burning it in the power plants that generate the electricity needed to recharge the new fleet of personal electric vehicles.

If we modified nothing else . . . no change to peoples' habits of consumption, demand for fossil-fuels will still grow, and we'll still have to face the spectre of Peak Oil.

[Ted C]

Would mass-manufacturing bring those costs down?

Mass production almost always reduces the cost per unit, but even mass-produced electric vehicles with decent performance would be much more expensive than gas vehicles at this point, I think.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The EV route is the one I'd go down. The problems listed are all very large, while the technology is quite mature and simply neglected. the EV-1 that came out and died a decade ago was more than enough for most commuters, who if they're doing more than 250 miles a day, are in the wrong damn job first of all. For long journeys and HGVs, you can't replace them with battery powered trucks and lorries, so flywheels or hybrids are the only real alternative to not switching to railways and barges which can't be point-to-point like a road network today can.

Then there's the generating problems, namely that the US and many other nations have horribly underinvested electrical grids that are prone to rolling blackouts if stretched much more. With many gas plants and nuclear ones being decommed in the near future, it's hard to envision a mass shift to EVs without taxing an already dangerously unstable network. That, and the money and resources for making these cars has to come from somewhere. Replacing even a sizeable portion of the US car fleet alone in under a decade is Manhattan/Apollo project territory.

[Guardsman Bass]

Would you get that kind of range (250 miles) with electric trucks as opposed to the models of electric cars? Ideally, it could serve as a complement if you don't have access to petrol; you use these (electric trucks and other necessary vehicles like powerline repair trucks and fire trucks)for travel within a compacted city, then ship everything farther by rail.

Do you have to completely redesign a truck powered solely on electricity as opposed to gasoline/diesel, or could you attach an electric engine to an existing truck chassis?

[Ted C]

Do you have to completely redesign a truck powered solely on electricity as opposed to gasoline/diesel, or could you attach an electric engine to an existing truck chassis?

Electric vehicles generally use an entirely different transmission system, placing an electric motor at each wheel instead of having a central engine connected to the drive wheels by a driveshaft and gearbox.

[Civil War Man]

To my knowledge...

• Electric cars are still more expensive to make.
• They lack the range of a typical gasoline engine with a full fuel tank.
• Recharging the battery takes hours.

These attributes make them more difficult to operate than conventional cars.

As someone working in the electric vehicle business, I can say that these are the biggest problems we face when trying to sell our bikes.

Of course, I think some people will not be ready for the technology until they have absolutely no other choice. I've spoken to some people who have been appalled by how expensive our bike is (which is only 11,000 USD) and in practically the next breath talk about the new gas powered motorcycle they bought (which, looking it up afterwards, retails for over 20,000). Or people will talk about how limited the range is, when they probably don't go more than 20 miles each way to work, and work long enough that if they plug it in as soon as they arrive (or even during lunch), the bike would be fully charged by the time they leave. And that's assuming they don't develop the type of driving profile that can go 40 miles on a single charge with room to spare.

And then, of course, there are the people who absolutely gush about how cool it looks, how much cleaner it is, how quiet it is, the simplicity of riding it, etc. They take a test ride and roll back in absolutely beaming because they had so much fun. And then it becomes obvious that they have no intention of buying one, because they just aren't ready to take that step for whatever reason.

[Chardok]

As far as range goes, why can't you mitigate the rate of battery discharge with a supplemental generation system using a combination of rechargers?

For instance.

In one vehicle: A small, 2 cylinder ICE with a, say, 5 gallon gas tank, the roof of said vehicle covered with solar panels, a manual, geared flywheel (Pedal attachment in the car, say, to spin the flywheel up to ridiculous speeds using human power for emergency recharging) and a "Ram Air" turbine system by which, the forward velocity of the car turns "Pinwheel" like devices that run a small generator to charge the batteries while the car is moving.

Also an option, store energy in the form of compressed air! Say a 30 gallon air tank attached to the undercarriage that can be filled either from an external source (Gas station tire filler hose) manually, using an optional manual compressor pump, or externally from your personal air compressor, or via vehicle plug in which recharges your batteris AND runs the small, onboard air compressorto charge the tanks. The compressed air, will run a small motor that turns a generator shaft as well.

All of these systems on one small, say, two seater vehicle, should have a range, speed, and flexibility that would make it a viable ultrahybrid with near zero emissions.

GODS! THE REDUNDANCY!

To summarize, a full-on electric car, only with multiple onboard systems for both recharge and mitigation of battery discharge.

[Flagg]

From my understanding of the technology, modern batteries have far better capacity and charge much faster than those from even the late 90's. You can also have additional batteries installed in the trunk for longer range travel.

But electric car models tested in the late 90's were aimed at filling a certain niche. That basically being people who commute to work and to get around town, but don't use a vehicle for much else. You know, most people.

[Kanastrous]

I wonder if you could layer enough photovoltaics on the roof/hood/trunk surfaces, to keep a worthwhile trickle going to the batteries, while you drive (on a sunny day).

[Flagg]

I wonder if you could layer enough photovoltaics on the roof/hood/trunk surfaces, to keep a worthwhile trickle going to the batteries, while you drive (on a sunny day).

Probably not. But they would definately increase the range. Same with generating power when the brakes are applied.

[Kanastrous]

Somewhere a while back I read about photovoltaic paint. It'd be cool to spray the whole car's surface with that...

...gotta see if I can find a link.

[Illuminatus Primus]

As far as range goes, why can't you mitigate the rate of battery discharge with a supplemental generation system using a combination of rechargers?

For instance.

In one vehicle: A small, 2 cylinder ICE with a, say, 5 gallon gas tank, the roof of said vehicle covered with solar panels, a manual, geared flywheel (Pedal attachment in the car, say, to spin the flywheel up to ridiculous speeds using human power for emergency recharging) and a "Ram Air" turbine system by which, the forward velocity of the car turns "Pinwheel" like devices that run a small generator to charge the batteries while the car is moving.

Also an option, store energy in the form of compressed air! Say a 30 gallon air tank attached to the undercarriage that can be filled either from an external source (Gas station tire filler hose) manually, using an optional manual compressor pump, or externally from your personal air compressor, or via vehicle plug in which recharges your batteris AND runs the small, onboard air compressorto charge the tanks. The compressed air, will run a small motor that turns a generator shaft as well.

All of these systems on one small, say, two seater vehicle, should have a range, speed, and flexibility that would make it a viable ultrahybrid with near zero emissions.

GODS! THE REDUNDANCY!

To summarize, a full-on electric car, only with multiple onboard systems for both recharge and mitigation of battery discharge.

The ram air turbine simply steals energy from the motors in the drivetrain. Its pointless.

[Kanastrous]

Also an option, store energy in the form of compressed air!

http://theaircar.com/

[Marko Dash]

for trucks you could have the top of the trailer lined with panels. how much power could you get from regeneratively braking both the truck and trailer, and would it be possible (assuming a hybrid truck) to have the engine brake drive a generator?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

All these ideas are pointless because the problem with peak oil is the loss of energy resources, and these ideas are extremely energy-inefficient in absolute terms (i.e., manufacturing). Get used to riding the interurban, for chrissake.