Power generation limitation classification

j1j2j3 · Post by **j1j2j3** » 2003-01-14 02:47pm

On the ST side,

Since we all know ST inferiority in weapons power and sheilding, I was wondering if the limitations stem from power generation limitations, power delivery or possibily both.

Is the matter-antimatter reaction comparitively low in itself that delivery(the method that phasers use generated energy to cause damage and so forth) doesn't matter? In this case more power generation would be required for ST to get anywhere.

On a related note, why can't they sustain a bigger matter-antimatter reactor ? It would seem that there are limits to how big a reaction the warp core can maintain. Are these limits imposed by the quality of the machinery and materials used in the warp core? Or is the warp core near perfect efficiency? If it is near perfect I don't see why a larger reaction could not be possible(assuming that there is no other limiting factors)

Or are there problems with the efficiency of the weapons and shielding systems? Phaser damage delivery seems nowhere near the theoretical power that can be generated from the warp core. And since older ships can be upgraded with newer(more powerful weapons and shields) it would seem there are substantial difficiencies in power delivery. If this were the case more power generation would not be the only solution.

Again in the SW side.

Since power generation in seems to be a blackbox and has a lot more power than ST, my question is : Are there examples where power delivery was the limiting factor in dishing out or receiving damage?

For example, was there a case where a TL upgrade made for more efficient and powerful shots requiring the same power generation?

FettKyle · Post by **FettKyle** » 2003-01-15 03:03pm

I don't know enough of Trek to answer your first batch of question but I would tend to power delivery as a problem.
But for SW I believe that power delivery has been nearly perfected so all they have to do is up the power the problem in that would keeping the right enviroment inside the Hypermatter reactors.

FX · Post by FX » 2003-01-16 10:56am

In Star Wars the only time we have seen a power problem was the Death Star needing some time to charge up its super laser.

Also remember that weapon and shield upgrades can be done by increasing the efficiency of the system. A regular laser has an efficiency of about 10%, so a breakthrough that allows a beam weapon to get 20%-30% efficiency would increase your firepower. I'm not saying that either phasers or turbolasers are that bad, but if you reduce waste you get more power on target.

Star Wars also has a mostly static technology base, so I don't expect to see them come up with "newer/faster/better" tech. They have had millennia to perfect just about everything. In short they have taken engineering to the limits of scientific law. The changes we see in tech are usually someone willing to pay more for a better model of gun/fighter/computer. The other idea is a trade off, Han Solo's pistol is much more powerful than what we see the rebels use, but it has a shorter range, and his ammo charge has fewer shots. Not what you want on the battle field, but great in a cantina brawl.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-16 12:20pm

We mostly see, in Wars, increases in output, with the major advances in size of the reactor(Consider: The DS-I's firepower was shrunk down into an ESSD, and by NJO, into an ISD-II).

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-16 02:21pm

In Star Trek, the "problem" with phasers is not so much a matter of efficiency but capacity. Their phasers deliver power fairly efficiently (to the point where taking systems like life-support off-line substantially boost power), but the phasers are incapable of processing the entire warp core's power generation abilities. That is usually pretty forgivable, because the warp-core almost NEVER transfers all of its power to weapons (it also needs to power systems like shields, engines, and SIF), but it represents a limitation on their combat abilities. Note that the phaser array can be substantially improved in terms of capacity over the course of a few hours (ref. "Legacy" [TNG]), but this setting is clearly not the default because it is obviously suicidal for going into combat with.

The photon torpedoes have greater capacity and appear to be more damaging in firepower/unit time, but are obviously less efficient in terms of firepower/AM amount (mostly because when torpedoes detonate, the explosion travels in all directions, losing at least half of the energy involved).

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-16 02:41pm

Master of Ossus: Pho torps can be shaped explosions.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-16 02:53pm

TheDarkling wrote:Master of Ossus: Pho torps can be shaped explosions.

Reference? They always appear to be spherical explosions.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-16 02:57pm

SirNitram wrote:We mostly see, in Wars, increases in output, with the major advances in size of the reactor (Consider: The DS-I's firepower was shrunk down into an ESSD, and by NJO, into an ISD-II).

Wrong. The Eclipse could only pierce the crust and disrupt the internal structure of a planet. Enough to make it affectively uninhabitable, but FAR less firepower than the Death Star I, which could affectively disperse the mass of the entire planet. Orders of magnitude smaller. Moreover we don't know how long the Eclipse had to charge to attain such a weapon.

And the ISD-II...do you mean the supposed weapon Booster has? I want to see quotes. I doubt it can do what even the Eclipse or Soveriegn can do, and that's vastly less powerful then the DS I.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-16 02:59pm

Also: the DS I's reactor had to share the burden of moving the DS (nearly equal to the power of blowing up a planet alone) and powering millions of heavy turbolaser emplacements scattered over the surface of the Death Star.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-16 03:10pm

TheDarkling wrote:Master of Ossus: Pho torps can be shaped explosions.

I suppose that they could be, but the torpedoes that we've seen detonate appear to be fairly spherical in their explosions. In ST:VI, the torpedo that detonated after passing through the Enterprise detonated in a spherical fashion, and there was no way short of powerful force-fields that the torpedo Quark's friend sold the Jem'Hadar could have been a shaped charge, since we saw where the explosives were stored (note that this torpedo was SUPPOSED to detonate on impact, rather than being an AP torpedo). While I'm not seeing definitive evidence for shaped charges, I suppose it can't be ruled out completely.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-16 03:12pm

SirNitram wrote:We mostly see, in Wars, increases in output, with the major advances in size of the reactor(Consider: The DS-I's firepower was shrunk down into an ESSD, and by NJO, into an ISD-II).

We've seen a superlaser mounted on an ISD-II? When?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-16 03:14pm

BTW, shaped charges are also inconsistent with "Nth Degree" and "Q Who?," both of which featured a danger to the ship FIRING the torpedo, even though if it were a shaped charge most of the energy would be fired away from the ship.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-16 03:30pm

SirNitram: I think its the episode where Voyager tries to cut a deal with the Trabe, it comes up on SB.com rather often.

On the issue on ST 6 - I have actually seen it srgued those were shaped thus explaining why the torp simply blew the top off of the ship instead of doing widespread internal damage but I don't really know.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-16 03:37pm

Proof Darkling. This goes against everything we've been told before.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-16 03:49pm

Not really its held to be a fact over on SB.com, just do a search there to find out info with a quick search, (looking for the name of the episode) I found HDS saying he believed Pho torps to sometimes be shaped and Q torps to always be shaped and that was the subject of thread.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-16 04:00pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
SirNitram wrote:We mostly see, in Wars, increases in output, with the major advances in size of the reactor(Consider: The DS-I's firepower was shrunk down into an ESSD, and by NJO, into an ISD-II).
We've seen a superlaser mounted on an ISD-II? When?

NJO d20 Sourcebook. Written when we thought the Pipefighter project was real, and it had a range of 1 LY.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-16 04:01pm

TheDarkling wrote:Not really its held to be a fact over on SB.com, just do a search there to find out info with a quick search, (looking for the name of the episode) I found HDS saying he believed Pho torps to sometimes be shaped and Q torps to always be shaped and that was the subject of thread.

Okay, we'll review basic debating again, since you don't get it. If you make a claim, you must supply the evidence. What the people at SB think does not mean shit.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-16 04:10pm

SirNitram: I don't really care, I was telling that theres an incident to support shaped torps and where you can find the evidence yourselves, if continuing to foster incorrect notions is more important than the truth then congrats - I don't feel particularly inclined to reinvent the wheel.

Also doesn't that little slip up tell you something about how trustworthy the source books are?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-16 04:15pm

TheDarkling wrote:SirNitram: I don't really care, I was telling that theres an incident to support shaped torps and where you can find the evidence yourselves, if continuing to foster incorrect notions is more important than the truth then congrats - I don't feel particularly inclined to reinvent the wheel.

Trite, pussified withdrawl..

It's not hard, Darkling. I realize you're a sad debator and have proven this over and over lately, but don't add in if you aren't prepared to back it up.

Also doesn't that little slip up tell you something about how trustworthy the source books are?

Not at all. Pipefighter, a NR project, was a lie. The Obliterator(As I recall, the name of the craft the Imperials made) is an Imperial project, and seems to be successful. The Imperials just used their superior engineering knowledge, especially when it comes to 'Fucking Big Guns'.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-16 04:22pm

I see don't add anything unless I am willing to hand hold people through it, its not a withdrawl at all because its not a debate on that subject - I put forth that the conclusion that torps aren't/can't be shaped is in error.

Don't believe me, I can't say as I care but I was under the illusion this was one of those constructive threads instead of the combative ones I apologise for my error.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-16 04:25pm

Torpedoes might be able to be shaped, but that's not what we see in the vast majority of incidents. We have far too few incidents of quantum torpedo use to consider them to "always be shaped," and so I don't see what you're trying to prove.

Incidentally, the "Pipe fighter" project is the ONLY time when we heard that the delivery systems of SW ships are more limited than their power generation abilities, and it turned out to be an elaborate deception.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-16 04:25pm

TheDarkling wrote:I see don't add anything unless I am willing to hand hold people through it, its not a withdrawl at all because its not a debate on that subject - I put forth that the conclusion that torps aren't/can't be shaped is in error.

Don't believe me, I can't say as I care but I was under the illusion this was one of those constructive threads instead of the combative ones I apologise for my error.

I'm sorry you're under the delusion that you can volunteer whatever stupidity comes to mind without support in a constructive thread. I'm also sorry you're so braindamaged you conclude that anywhere where your claims are challenged is a 'combative' thread.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-16 04:32pm

Master of Ossus: I'm not trying to prove anything except that

(mostly because when torpedoes detonate, the explosion travels in all directions, losing at least half of the energy involved).

isn't always true.

SirNitram: No any thread where my views are challenged doesn't qualify as combative, I simply ventured forth some info to MOO and told him where he could look into it - I'm not trying to prove they are shaped because I have already read up on the arguments enough to be reasonably convinced however since you think the idea of the torps being shaped is stupidity maybe you should do a little research.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-16 04:54pm

Darkling, I'll look into that directed explosion thing as soon as I get home to see the episode, but it would help if I knew what I was looking for. Am I listening to a piece of dialogue, or watching for a particular torpedo to explode?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-16 05:06pm

I have been searching around and while the episode I mentioned does demonstrate the shaped charge (because a torp goes of just outside a window but with no blowback at all) the best episode from what I can gather is Revulsion which shows a conical blast on screen (its been a while since I saw the episode so I am taking that one on faith).

I going to take a look if I can find an exact description of the blast (there was a very detailed thread on the entire photons shaped/not shaped situation but I can't find it).