Questions about SD.net

[TheDarkling]

I wasn't questioning the NR's ability to do an orbital bombardment just the Vongs complete shock at it as if the concept had never occured to them, I suppose it could be something to do with range limitation (Skip level weapony only lasts a few seconds before it hardens) of their vessels weapons but that seems a little weak for an explanation.

It also indicates that in two years of warfare the NR didn't use this tactic once, not surprising really though considering the NR beat a steady retreat for that entire time.

This is getting a little off topic though so I won't say anymore.

[nightmare]

4) The Jedi Temple
I understand that when Exar Kun was holed up in the Templ the Jedi Kights of the Old Republic counldn't destroy it. However without Kun's prescene one can only guess if his SIth powers still worked. Although the Jedi stuidents did say in the book that the Great Temple would not be stable for long, refering to the orbital barrage I believe.

The Force focusing ability of the temple seemed to work just fine for the Jedi Padawans who enhanced their Force strenght through it and threw away a Star Destroyer lightyears in a blink.

[Master of Ossus]

4) The Jedi Temple
I understand that when Exar Kun was holed up in the Templ the Jedi Kights of the Old Republic counldn't destroy it. However without Kun's prescene one can only guess if his SIth powers still worked. Although the Jedi stuidents did say in the book that the Great Temple would not be stable for long, refering to the orbital barrage I believe.

The Force focusing ability of the temple seemed to work just fine for the Jedi Padawans who enhanced their Force strenght through it and threw away a SD lightyears in a blink.

It was several Star Destroyers. I fixed the double-post.

[nightmare]

Thanks. I checked before I posted again, but I didn't see it until afterwards.

[IceHawk-151]

The Knight Hammer fired all Turbolaser Batteries on maximum firepower at the Jedi Base. According to the definition of a BDZ it takes an ISD 1 full hour to melt the surface of a planet to a 1 meter depth. This is done with Maximum Firepower settings. The Executor-class has more powerful and larger amounts of weapons onboard and can perform a BDZ in less time than a single ISD, that is under an hour. However in Darksaber we have an instance of a SSD firing full powered shots at a planet and we hear of no colateral damage other than forrests consisting mainly of tall trees and shrubs being blasted away. The fact that it wasn't a BDZ is my point. At full power the SSD was not incurring BDZ level damage. Thus according to the book the BDZ would not be applicable.

And as far as the Temple goes, to protect it from firepower a Jedi would have to be concentrating on protecting the temple. It took all of the students to merely push the Victory squadron out of the system. There were no Jedi in attendance that could have shielded the Temple from the bombardment.

[SirNitram]

Well, even if we take your claims at face value, one book(Just one, and it's the atrociously inaccurate Darksaber as well, which has numerous other mistakes in it) is supposed to override all other instances of BDZ evidence?

[Master of Ossus]

The incident in Darksaber involves a warship in actual combat conditions. A BDZ is designed to occur with numerous ships, or with little resistance (ie. planetary shields). It should thus come as no surprise that its firepower MIGHT have been lower than the firepower involved in a BDZ (and is consistent with everything we've seen everywhere else). Moreover, no where in the book does it state how large the forest fires are, or really what damage is done.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Also, Daala has a passion for hyperbole and stupidity and obviously said something we either have in bad context or she was simply wrong.

[SPOOFE]

Thus according to the book the BDZ would not be applicable.

Except Darksaber goes contrary to other books of equal canonicity in that regard. IT is the exception, not the rule. If anything is to be ignored, it would be [i}Darksaber[/i].

[IceHawk-151]

"The incident in Darksaber involves a warship in actual combat conditions. A BDZ is designed to occur with numerous ships, or with little resistance " - MoO

A single Star Destroyer is, according to Wong's site, able to enact a DBZ in a single hour by itself. If an ISD is capable of a BDZ on it's own so is an SSD. Darksaber seems to indicate that even in the unknown numbers of minutes the barrage went for there was nothing in the way of the ground itself being melted to any depth. With main characters running back and forth through the Jungle and I'm pretty sure we would have heard something about that.

Illuminatus Primus where was the hyperbole in her written thoughts? She order all Turbolaser Batteries to fire at maximum firepower, and then she began to see jungle begin to burn. I see no room for hyperbole.

And either we completly throw out Darksaber and everything in it, or we use it to get a possible range for weapons power when compared to the other books. If it doesn't fit in with your high-end numbers it doesn't mean it's wrong.

[Stormbringer]

"The incident in Darksaber involves a warship in actual combat conditions. A BDZ is designed to occur with numerous ships, or with little resistance " - MoO

A single Star Destroyer is, according to Wong's site, able to enact a DBZ in a single hour by itself. If an ISD is capable of a BDZ on it's own so is an SSD. Darksaber seems to indicate that even in the unknown numbers of minutes the barrage went for there was nothing in the way of the ground itself being melted to any depth. With main characters running back and forth through the Jungle and I'm pretty sure we would have heard something about that.

Illuminatus Primus where was the hyperbole in her written thoughts? She order all Turbolaser Batteries to fire at maximum firepower, and then she began to see jungle begin to burn. I see no room for hyperbole.

And either we completly throw out Darksaber and everything in it, or we use it to get a possible range for weapons power when compared to the other books. If it doesn't fit in with your high-end numbers it doesn't mean it's wrong.

Daala was fucking idiot. That her plans and day dreams bear little resemblence to canon reality shouldn't suprise anyone.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Illuminatus Primus where was the hyperbole in her written thoughts? She order all Turbolaser Batteries to fire at maximum firepower, and then she began to see jungle begin to burn. I see no room for hyperbole.

And either we completly throw out Darksaber and everything in it, or we use it to get a possible range for weapons power when compared to the other books. If it doesn't fit in with your high-end numbers it doesn't mean it's wrong.

Do you except Trek claims of elements that don't exist and alloys when they are compounds when we know this is wrong?

[Master of Ossus]

"The incident in Darksaber involves a warship in actual combat conditions. A BDZ is designed to occur with numerous ships, or with little resistance " - MoO

A single Star Destroyer is, according to Wong's site, able to enact a DBZ in a single hour by itself. If an ISD is capable of a BDZ on it's own so is an SSD. Darksaber seems to indicate that even in the unknown numbers of minutes the barrage went for there was nothing in the way of the ground itself being melted to any depth. With main characters running back and forth through the Jungle and I'm pretty sure we would have heard something about that.

You missed the entire point of my post. A BDZ is to be enacted when there is little resistance, instead of in a combat situation like this one was. In this case, the SSD would have also had to power numerous other systems such as shields and engines, unlike a normal BDZ.

[Ender]

This is real fucking simple Icehawk. For some reason the others are looking for complex answers, but they don't need them. The quote says fires were visable from orbit, that's all. It doesn't say a single word about trees and shrubs being "blasted away", and inserting your own commentary to fit your preconcieved notions doesn't work. Fires visable from orbit was the only description given. Well if you smack a forest with 200 Gigatons, you are going to get fires visable from orbit. They will be on the outside of a huge fucking crater, but there will be fires. Thus there is not contradiction. None. Zero, zip, denada.

[nightmare]

Not to mention that Daala landed troops and wanted bodies. Plus that if the NR couldn't destroy the temple, is Jedi really needed to use their powers with it to make it indestructible? I wouldn't say it's a small feat to fling several VSDs lightyears with just a concentrated thought either.

In any case, I support the ICS. Not because I'm doing vs debates - I'm not, really. I'm here because I "want my fill of sci-fi". Nor does it have any real impact on ST vs SW debates, other than that it has been a little more accepted that SW has such power figures.

No, I support the ICS because it makes sense. Power generation, BDZ quotes, you name it. Of course it should too. As it was posted earlier in this thread, apparently all those things were part of Dr. Saxton's estimate, so it would be very strange if it didn't fit. Your view, Icehawk, rather makes it seem like we should belive that metre-calibre energy guns and larger makes no more damage than popsicles. You are entitled to you view of course, although quite frankly, I find it ludicrous.

[Graeme Dice]

Until Saxton himself comes out and explains how he came to these numbers or Episode II displays an Acclamator using these weapons the 200 GT figure has as much clout as the Yields for Phaser Rating listed in the ST Tech Manuals.

"Bloody hell, you guys are idiots. I don't care if the
preface to the ICS read:
"I AM MAKING TURBOLASERS 200 GIGATONS BECAUSE I HATE
SPACEBATTLES.COM AND WORSHIP MIKE WONG! MUAHAHA! STAR TREK SUXORZ!"
As long as LucasFilm has it printed and published under
their name, it's STILL OFFICIAL!
-- WindupAtheist"

[Lord Pounder]

I think we can agree that this topic has gone way off course. Can we solit it and name it the "laugh and point at Icehawk-151 thread"

Serriously the hat fucker couldn't even get his own name, he had to take the name of an existing member and add numbers.

[IceHawk-151]

You are right Ender there is a simple answer to the Darksaber quote, however it isn't yours. When the Knight Hammer was firing on the planet there were no Capital ships in the area to oppose it, nor were there any ground emplacements that could fire on it. Thus the SSD didn't need to have it's shields up. What we have is an SSD firing maximum power settings on a planet that cannot retailiate against it nor defend itself. To me that sounds like the definition of a DBZ.

Daala herself told her troops not to launch, she opted for the orbital bombardment insted. Any troops already on the ground had been routed by the Jedi and were going to die anyway. It seemed to me that Daala wouldn't mind sacrificing a few hundred stormtroopers if it meant killing all of the Jedi Knights.

When the damage of the planet was describied to us all we hear about is the raging fires. We hear nothing about massive craters engulfing entrie forrests. It is possible that the Turbolaser fire did do what you stipulated Ender, however it is also possible that the Turbolasers only set forrest fires and didn't even damage the dirt. So of course thier is no contradiction to your statment Ender, it is an assumption made with little to no evidence to support it from the begining. We have limitied knowledge on the damage incurred on the planet so you can make up some sort of theory. However the fact still remains that we never hear of any large craters beging created due to TL fire in the book.

[IceHawk-151]

I think we can agree that this topic has gone way off course. Can we solit it and name it the "laugh and point at Icehawk-151 thread"

Serriously the hat fucker couldn't even get his own name, he had to take the name of an existing member and add numbers.

The original name came from the StarSiege fames. IceHawk, the Grand Master of the Imperial Guard. I used it when I was playing Janes Fighter sims online three years ago. I added the 151 part when I joined an online squad. That squad is defuct these days, but I've kept the name as a sort of homeage to the good ole Vigilantes.

And the Thread still has a point to it buddy. Darksber seems to indicate that DBZ level firepower doesn't exsist (Atleast in that instance). If that is true I can begin to correlate other instances where the BDZ seems not likely and then use that knowledge to combat the 200 GT number that seems to be beased on the DBZ idea.

[Ghost Rider]

So you wanna take it up with Visions of the Future?

Where they describe the BDZ and the variety of other books that describe Gigatons and how that what HDS provided is a valid scietific thinking to create a GT figure.

So far all you're doing is taking one event and extrapolating it into infinity...nice going.

[His Divine Shadow]

And the Thread still has a point to it buddy. Darksber seems to indicate that DBZ level firepower doesn't exsist (Atleast in that instance)

That is NOT true, there are not enough descriptions or explicit enough instances in that book to mean anything, anything that comes out of it will be based purely on your subjective ideas, much as all of your arguments to date, you've failed to show any significant evidence or logic whatsoever to support your points.

If that is true I can begin to correlate other instances where the BDZ seems not likely and then use that knowledge to combat the 200 GT number that seems to be beased on the DBZ idea.

It's not based on that idea, you have still failed to see the utterly canonical evidence of thousand G accelerations and the minimal 1e23w range power it would require, and that is one of the 4 different ways I've provided, which still are not all the different approached used.

And you still fail in this instance and there are more instances FOR the BDZ firepower, you've also failed to address three ISD's blowing the atmosphere of a planet, or the Nar Shaddaa incident, or other descriptions.

Your whole logic train is a literal train wreck so far, and you've clearly showed that your only reason to ahem "combat" the ICS, is because you "think" the 200GT figure is too big, pure subjectivism from the get go, that coupled with how you've acted in your interpreptation of evidence sofar leaves me with little to no faith in your deductive abilities.

[IceHawk-151]

Vision of the Furture is a bit suspect.
The Imperial plan was based around the factions over Bothwui havig a massive battle and wiping each other out. The Imperial's dropped the shileds on the planet in the hope that those comming for revenge would start blasting away at the planet's cities. The ISD's were there to mop up the damaged leftovers and hit the planet with as much power as possible in hopes of wiping out all of the Bothans there.

One could imterpret that as the ISd's were going for a DBZ, or one could think that the ISD's were just going to fry all of the cities and kill the remaining population.

[Ghost Rider]

LMAO...it's a bit suspect.

Oh that's a good one...any proof to this or more subjective reasoning on your part because you don't want to accept the 200 GT figure because it doesn't agree with you.

[Master of Ossus]

Vision of the Furture is a bit suspect.
The Imperial plan was based around the factions over Bothwui havig a massive battle and wiping each other out. The Imperial's dropped the shileds on the planet in the hope that those comming for revenge would start blasting away at the planet's cities. The ISD's were there to mop up the damaged leftovers and hit the planet with as much power as possible in hopes of wiping out all of the Bothans there.

One could imterpret that as the ISd's were going for a DBZ, or one could think that the ISD's were just going to fry all of the cities and kill the remaining population.

You would be right, except that you're not. The Imperial plan revolved around the two fleets destroying each other, and then the ISD's could emerge and BDZ the planet. It had nothing to do with another (fourth) fleet emerging from hyperspace and bombarding the planet, also. What part of this did you not understand? Moreover, what the hell kind of a BDZ destroys only the cities? Yes, there would have been casualties from the fleet action going on in orbit, but they could NOT have simply targeted the cities for destruction and left it at that. They would have needed to destroy the planet to the point where there were NO survivors. In fact, that was a critical component of the mission objective.

[His Divine Shadow]

Vision of the Furture is a bit suspect

This coming from you... god...

The Imperial plan was based around the factions over Bothwui havig a massive battle and wiping each other out. The Imperial's dropped the shileds on the planet in the hope that those comming for revenge would start blasting away at the planet's cities. The ISD's were there to mop up the damaged leftovers and hit the planet with as much power as possible in hopes of wiping out all of the Bothans there

No, they had to wipe them all out, there could be no witnesses.

And the capabilties of three ISD's is already defined, as in blowing the atmosphere off.

Eh, I give up, you're not going to change nomatter how much evidence we show.