King of Spain tells Hugo Chavez to "shut up."

[Rogue 9]

Hail to the king, baby!

Shut up, Spain's king tells Chavez

Spain's King Juan Carlos told Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez to "shut up" as the Ibero-American summit drew to a close in Santiago, Chile.

The outburst came after Mr Chavez called former Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar a "fascist".

Mr Chavez then interrupted Spanish PM Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's calls for him to be more diplomatic, prompting the king's outburst.

Latin American, Portuguese, Spanish and Andorran leaders were meeting in Chile.

'Democratically elected'

Mr Chavez called Mr Aznar, a close ally of US President George W Bush, a fascist, adding "fascists are not human. A snake is more human."

Mr Zapatero said: "[Former Prime Minister] Aznar was democratically elected by the Spanish people and was a legitimate representative of the Spanish people."

Mr Chavez repeatedly tried to interrupt, despite his microphone being turned off. The king leaned forward and said: "Why don't you shut up?"

According to reports, the king used a familiar term normally used only for close acquaintances - or children.

Later, Mr Chavez responded to the king's rebuke.

According to the Associated Press news agency, he said: "I do not offend by telling the truth. The Venezuelan government reserves the right to respond to any aggression, anywhere, in any space and in any manner."

The theme of this year's 22-nation summit was "social cohesion".

Earlier, a row between neighbours Argentina and Uruguay threatened to overshadow the summit.

The long-running dispute erupted anew after Uruguay gave an operating permit to a paper mill despite unresolved environmental objections by Argentina.

On Saturday, scores of Argentine protesters staged a peaceful protest against the setting up of the plant, which they fear could contaminate their crops.

Some of the marchers carried banners reading "No to the paper plant!". Police stopped them from marching across a bridge into Uruguay.

'Stabbed in the back'

Uruguayan President Tabare Vazquez granted a long-awaited start-up permit to the mill on Thursday - hours after giving a conciliatory speech at the summit, which he ended by hugging outgoing Argentine President Nestor Kirchner.

On Friday, Uruguay announced it had closed its border crossing with Argentina closest to the mill in Fray Bentos.

The moves led to protests from the Argentine delegation in the Chilean capital, with Mr Kirchner blaming Mr Vazquez for putting an end to efforts by King Juan Carlos to mediate a resolution to the dispute.

"You have stabbed the Argentine people in the back," Mr Kirchner told his counterpart according to the official Argentine news agency Telam.

This is the latest instalment of a two-year row.

The Finnish owners of the pulp mill - the biggest foreign investment in Uruguay - insist it employs the latest technology and will not pollute. But Argentina disagrees and has taken the case to the International Court in The Hague, whose ruling is pending.

[Adrian Laguna]

As a subject of Juan Carlos and a citizen of Venezuela who did not Chavez, I approve thoroughly. More people need to tell that guy to shut the fuck up, he talks and talks and talks. The man should be a talk show host instead of President.

[K. A. Pital]

The man should be a talk show host instead of President.

He actually is both. Doesn't he run a talk show called Hello President or something?

[TithonusSyndrome]

"Ibero-American" Summit? What's the use of that? So these countries share some languages and history. I don't see why that's enough to call any summits over and have Spain and Portugal, who would otherwise have no more involvement in the affairs of South American nations than any other sub-Great Power, chat it up with those countries for however many days. Organizations like NATO or the OAS seem reasonable, but what's so special about the fact that they all speak Spanish or Portuguese?

[Adrian Laguna]

The man should be a talk show host instead of President.

He actually is both. Doesn't he run a talk show called Hello President or something?

You're right he is. It's called Alo Presidente. Which translates pretty much to "Hello President", except there's the implication of a phone conversation. As far as I know, the word "Alo" is not used in any other context.

He should quit his day job and take the talk show full time. He can hand over the Presidency to me.

[Colonel Olrik]

"Ibero-American" Summit? What's the use of that? So these countries share some languages and history. I don't see why that's enough to call any summits over and have Spain and Portugal, who would otherwise have no more involvement in the affairs of South American nations than any other sub-Great Power, chat it up with those countries for however many days. Organizations like NATO or the OAS seem reasonable, but what's so special about the fact that they all speak Spanish or Portuguese?

Both Portugal and Spain have huge investments in South and Central America countries, if you consider the size of their economies. For example, the discovery of new oil reserves in Brazil a couple days ago was excellent for GALP and made big headlines in Portugal, since they have a significant share in the exploring company and part of the oil belongs to them. So it's advantageous for both countries to keep close ties with South America.

For South and Central America, Portugal and Spain offer a door into the EU. There is a big emigrant community here and Portugal and Spain traditionally facilitate things when companies from those countries want to invest in the EU.

So, there's basically an Economic motivation for the talks besides the history and language association, which in fact also exists.

[Phantasee]

TithonusSyndrome

If they can find some reason to work together, why not use it? It's not hard to find differences, we should be happier when people find similarities and use them for good.

King of Spain, and the Verbal Bitch Slap!

[Sarevok]

As a subject of Juan Carlos and a citizen of Venezuela who did not Chavez, I approve thoroughly. More people need to tell that guy to shut the fuck up, he talks and talks and talks. The man should be a talk show host instead of President.

He can't stay in power forever by blaming the imperialist west for all of Venezuela's problems. How does Chavez keep people content ? Is he actually good at running the nation ?

[Setesh]

He can't stay in power forever by blaming the imperialist west for all of Venezuela's problems. How does Chavez keep people content ? Is he actually good at running the nation ?

His 'Bolivarian Missions' programs make him popular among the numerous members of the abjectly poor they are aimed at.

The Communal Council Law especially. Under this law communities can organize themselves into a council and get access to federal recognition for funds and loans, completely bypassing the existing government. This is both a good thing (there is entrenched corruption at state and local government levels) and a bad thing (it lets Hugo be lazy about actually doing anything about the corruption).

On the other hand he did try to take he country at gun point before running for office and won which says something about what kind of choices they had other than him

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

As a subject of Juan Carlos and a citizen of Venezuela who did not Chavez, I approve thoroughly. More people need to tell that guy to shut the fuck up, he talks and talks and talks. The man should be a talk show host instead of President.

He can't stay in power forever by blaming the imperialist west for all of Venezuela's problems. How does Chavez keep people content ? Is he actually good at running the nation ?

Well, when there are enough stupid sheep around.....

In any case, kudos to the King for saying what should have been said for ages.

[Glocksman]

He can't stay in power forever by blaming the imperialist west for all of Venezuela's problems. How does Chavez keep people content ? Is he actually good at running the nation ?

His 'Bolivarian Missions' programs make him popular among the numerous members of the abjectly poor they are aimed at.

The Communal Council Law especially. Under this law communities can organize themselves into a council and get access to federal recognition for funds and loans, completely bypassing the existing government. This is both a good thing (there is entrenched corruption at state and local government levels) and a bad thing (it lets Hugo be lazy about actually doing anything about the corruption).

On the other hand he did try to take he country at gun point before running for office and won which says something about what kind of choices they had other than him

I have mixed feelings about Chavez.
On one hand, he *is* addressing long standing problems in Venezuela over income inequality and entrenched poverty.
On the other, he's also creating a 'cult of personality' that'd make Stalin blush and has a black/white view of the world that makes GWB's look nuanced.

Will his good outweigh the bad?
Only time will tell.

[K. A. Pital]

How does Chavez keep people content ? Is he actually good at running the nation ?

He made good progress in what are traditional communist/socialist policy focus points - literacy and education, public transportation (rail and urban commuter like metro), improving housing and supply for urban poor (incomes of poor grew by 1/3rd), creating a council mass movement. His foreign policy has had successes as well, the Lat-Am integration "gang" which includes him, Lula, Ortega, Morales and Kirchner quite probably brought some real benefits to the nation. To improve the poor's position in society, Chavez applied a combo of higher oil superprofit taxation and microcredit, which is quite sane. He also has some success in combatting inflation, although inflation percentage is fluctuating from lows to highs, even if being lower than pre-Chavez times.

Other than that, I dont' know. Some of my friends visited Venezuela (Caracas) and wrote about the mass support Chavez' socialism has from the poorer people in Venezuela.

Chavez policy on oil is strict quotas, which sounds rather rational given the current oil situation - Peak oil looming and rising prices.

[CaptainChewbacca]

As far as Ibero-American relations go, there are HUGE numbers of latin-american immigrants in spain and portugal right now. They fulfill roughly the same role as they do in American society, working the drudge, low-paying jobs, and sending that money back to their families. You can find great restraunts for every latin-american nation within 2 city blocks in madrid.

[Adrian Laguna]

He can't stay in power forever by blaming the imperialist west for all of Venezuela's problems. How does Chavez keep people content ? Is he actually good at running the nation ?

High oil prices allow him to turn Venezuela into a gigantic welfare state. He keeps the people content by handing over money, food, and booze.

On the other hand he did try to take he country at gun point before running for office and won which says something about what kind of choices they had other than him

It also helped that the two "old guard" parties, AD and COPEI, utterly fucked-up their campaigns on a level that I doubt even the most boneheaded Democratic attempts to shoot themselves in the balls could match. Basically they'd grown complacent over the years, and thus they weren't expecting it when Chavez's MVR party managed to rouse huge support among the poor. Completely blind sided, they flailed around uselessly, until one week before the election both parties dumped their candidates and threw their support behind the only guy who stood a chance of defeating Chavez. This was to no avail, it was too little too late, and Hugo still ran away with the election, having a comfortable million vote lead.

Things could have gone different had AD and COPEI recognized the threat early on and marshalled to counter it ahead of time. Instead of half-assed desperation measures when the election's been decided and all that's left is to make it official.

I believe one of the reasons why attempting to coup the government didn't score too many points against Chavez is the general feeling among the populace that things were a lot better back when we had dictators running the country. I would tend to agree, that dammed pussy Perez Jimenez should have stayed in power rather than run away to Spain back in '58.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

Chavez policy on oil is strict quotas, which sounds rather rational given the current oil situation - Peak oil looming and rising prices.

It also sounds rational because they have no choice. His policies have resulted in a massive drain of skilled oilfield workers. . .so much so that they are having difficulties maintaining production.

In Canada, there is a huge influx of Venezuelan petroleum engineers to the oilrich province of Alberta. . .especially to frigid Fort McMurray and its oilsands.

[CJvR]

He can't stay in power forever by blaming the imperialist west for all of Venezuela's problems. How does Chavez keep people content ? Is he actually good at running the nation ?

96$ ...

[TheKwas]

He can't stay in power forever by blaming the imperialist west for all of Venezuela's problems. How does Chavez keep people content ? Is he actually good at running the nation ?

High oil prices allow him to turn Venezuela into a gigantic welfare state. He keeps the people content by handing over money, food, and booze.

It should be noted that Chavez had a large part in making those prices be so high and making sure that oil money even makes it's way to the people. Although it had little lasting effect, he did play a central role in re-organizing OPEC into an actual effective force, and the PDVSA (the state oil firm) was nothing but a bloated corporation filled with Kleptocrats that had no respect for the public interest, and were not accountable to the public interest prior to Chavez's firing of management.

I won't bother getting into whether or not Chavez is making the most out of that Oil money (he's not), but you can't act like he's throwing away Venezuela's future when a good portion of that money is there because of him in the first place.

On another note, the Spanish King also just got up and left the meeting when Daniel Ortega accused him of meddling in Nicaragua elections. Had I spoke better Spanish, I think I would have enjoyed watching this meeting.

On the other hand he did try to take he country at gun point before running for office and won which says something about what kind of choices they had other than him

A move that actually bolstered his popularity. Odd country.

[Darth Wong]

If Chavez is investing in public education, he's doing the most important thing for securing a long-term future. Pouring money into business is not as important as putting money into education.

[Adrian Laguna]

On the other hand he did try to take he country at gun point before running for office and won which says something about what kind of choices they had other than him

A move that actually bolstered his popularity. Odd country.

Due to cultural reasons, dictators in Venezuela were never ruthless or violent. The last one we had even phoned in warnings. You got two warnings to either shut up or leave the country. Only the idiots who got the second phone call and weren't abroad inside a week showed-up dead in a ditch. Even then, you were more likely to just be imprisoned. We got rid of the death penalty in the mid or late 19th century, it never came back after that.

We've had dictators but none of them can be said to be evil. What's more they did good things. Dictators presided over the great growth and industrialization of the early 20th century. The public services were mostly competent, and corruption, while it did exist, wasn't as bad as it is today. Don't get me started on crime, people didn't even lock their doors in the '50s, nowadays you see armoured steel multi-lock doors and electrified fences. So unlike every other country, we look back fondly on our dictators.

It also helped that among the poor, Chavez's strongest support base, the government was viewed (not entirely incorrectly) as a bunch of corrupt, incompetent, kleptocrats who never did anything for them. From their point of view, there's not much anything wrong with taking them down. Especially because, based on prior experience, dictators in Venezuela are hardly oppressive.

[Adrian Laguna]

If Chavez is investing in public education, he's doing the most important thing for securing a long-term future. Pouring money into business is not as important as putting money into education.

That's actually one of the oil funded programs I do support. However I am very concerned about the quality of this education. Chavez and his cronies have demonstrated that they have piss-poor standards. They do nothing about crime, corruption, and the slow degradation of our infrastructure. Regarding the latter, I specifically mean that maintenance is anathema to them, they just rebuild stuff every 10-20 years after it breaks down. Also, I've heard and read statements to the effect that educators might be being hired with focus toward ideology rather than competence.

[K. A. Pital]

However I am very concerned about the quality of this education.

You mean the poor don't need basic literacy? What quality education can one speak of until you secure basic literacy for the citizens?

They do nothing about crime, corruption, and the slow degradation of our infrastructure. Regarding the latter, I specifically mean that maintenance is anathema to them, they just rebuild stuff every 10-20 years after it breaks down.

Why do they build metro commuters and new railway lines? How does this:
Maracaibo Metro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencia_M ... ncia Metro
IAFE
correlate with a stipulated indifference towards infrastructure? There hasn't been a new railway line in Venezuela for 70 years, until now. This might be "indifference", but it looks better than what others did in the prior 70 years.

Don't get me started on crime, people didn't even lock their doors in the '50s, nowadays you see armoured steel multi-lock doors and electrified fences. So unlike every other country, we look back fondly on our dictators.

Hmm... looks similar to the memories of USSR. How was your justice system operating? The police probably should have been very effective in the previous years.

[Adrian Laguna]

However I am very concerned about the quality of this education.

You mean the poor don't need basic literacy? What quality education can one speak of until you secure basic literacy for the citizens?

How do you get that from concern about the quality of the education? I already said I support the program. That doesn't mean I can be worried that they could be doing much better than they are. It's more than a literacy program, they also teach math, history, civics, even English. This is all good. It's definitely better to have ideologues teaching these things than nobody, but ideologically neutral professionals are even better.

Why do they build metro commuters and new railway lines? How does this:
Maracaibo Metro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencia_M ... ncia Metro
IAFE
correlate with a stipulated indifference towards infrastructure? There hasn't been a new railway line in Venezuela for 70 years, until now. This might be "indifference", but it looks better than what others did in the prior 70 years.

I was talking about maintenance. Building new shit != maintaining the old. Chavez's expansion of the subways and trains are also projects of his that I support (note: I don't support his expansion of the highway system). Though notably, the Caracas subway has always been an exception to the old "the politicians don't maintain shit" rule.

How was your justice system operating? The police probably should have been very effective in the previous years.

The police were effective, the justice system more serviceable, yes. Also the general culture of... I'm not sure what to call it, actually. In any case the rotten culture that's taken hold of Venezuela didn't exist back then. People as a whole were more honest and hard-working. I'm not sure how or why things changed, but they did. It might be the infamous Curse of Oil.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Chavez policy on oil is strict quotas, which sounds rather rational given the current oil situation - Peak oil looming and rising prices.

It also sounds rational because they have no choice. His policies have resulted in a massive drain of skilled oilfield workers. . .so much so that they are having difficulties maintaining production.

In Canada, there is a huge influx of Venezuelan petroleum engineers to the oilrich province of Alberta. . .especially to frigid Fort McMurray and its oilsands.

That's funny, I'm in McMurray right now and I don't see many Venezuelans. Newfoundlanders, on the other hand...

[K. A. Pital]

That doesn't mean I can be worried that they could be doing much better than they are.

Indeed so. I'd imagine they could run specialized programs for training an elite cadre and then installing educated managers in local councils as a next step.

I was talking about maintenance. Building new shit != maintaining the old.

If there was only 1 operating rail line since 1950, what does this maintenance translate to? Did prior administrations do a good job at maintaining anything sans this line? Chavez has a long-range project to connect all large cities by 2020 through IAFE. That's a lot better than 1 functioning line for 70 years, no?

I'm not sure how or why things changed, but they did. It might be the infamous Curse of Oil.

Resource dependence = bad. Resource dependence in the hands of an oligarchy = bad. Foreign-controlled extraction of resource with little reinvestment into other sectors = bad. Combine those factors, and you have a recipe for disaster. A government monopoly on resources is not inherently good or bad, all depends on it's reinvestment policies and public control. Reinvesting oil into education, infrastructure and anti-poverty programs is a better plan than letting the oil superprofits grow and even become invested in other places than Venezuela (the West, Western banks, China, India and so on) while the population is in deep shit.