Why did the CIS lose the battle of Geonosis?

[Darth Tanner]

I've recently bought the Star Wars Complete Locations book and the article of on the battle for Geonosis interested me in that it gives specific ship deployments for both sides. Now the point is that the CIS is listed as having the following,

60 Core ships, with 46 escaping
41 Commerce Guild Frigates with 36 escaping
286 Techno Union Rocket ships with 169 escaping

While the Republic only has 12 acclaimators.

Now what struck me was that the CIS essentially is able to get 46 battleships into orbit with a large number of escorts and yet still retreats against a force of 12 troop transports that are grounded on the planet discharging their troops. And yet still retreats from the battle surrendering Geonosis, an important economic and political asset to Republic occupation.

Why being the million dollar question.

Now as I see it there are several options that I thought of, the rout that began on the planet was continued into space simply because of lack of communication from Republic jamming and the swiftness of the Republic attack. It is unlikely for example that Separatist ships are going to have standing orders to engage Republic forces in battle during a secretive military build up.

An alternative is that the 12 acclaimators listed in the Complete locations book is simply the number that landed troops, with a larger number of ships remaining in orbit to combat the enemy fleet off screen from what occurs in the film. As I understand it from wookiepedia there is a space battle over Geonosis that occurs in some comic or other.

A further explanation is that Dooku ordered a retreat regardless of the tactical situation. Either to ensure the Separatist war machinery escapes or more likely to allow the war to spread rather than be dealt with in one single engagement as Sidious would want. It was Dooku after all who ordered the ground forces to begin a retreat while the Numodians wanted to commit all forces to a full scale counter assault.

Another possibility is that the core ships on Geonosis hadn't been retrofitted for battle service and were essentially still freighters, the fact that they didn't use their point defence laser cannon emplacements that are meant to surround the central core may support this.

[Mange]

I think this excerpt from the AOTC screenplay is quite telling as to the intended size of the Republic invasion:

EXT. GEONOSIS, TERRAIN OUTSIDE EXECUTION ARENA - DAY

The massed lines of parked Federation Starships and the DROIDS surrounding the arena, are themselves surrounded by thousands of Republic Starships, disgorging TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CLONE TROOPERS. Beyond, more Republic Starships are landing and spewing out troops.

[Darth Fanboy]

Tens of Thosuands of troopers EACH....right? Please?

Addendum, the space battle over Geonosis occurs in the Jedi Starfighter game.

[Isolder74]

I think this excerpt from the AOTC screenplay is quite telling as to the intended size of the Republic invasion:

EXT. GEONOSIS, TERRAIN OUTSIDE EXECUTION ARENA - DAY

The massed lines of parked Federation Starships and the DROIDS surrounding the arena, are themselves surrounded by thousands of Republic Starships, disgorging TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CLONE TROOPERS. Beyond, more Republic Starships are landing and spewing out troops.

Well if that is talking about the 200,000 units already mentioned then we can't hope for much.

[Chris OFarrell]

The screenplay is clearly overulled by the actual MOVIE itself which showed far less then 'thousands' of ships landing and deploying troops.

That said, I've never understood it myself. You can easily see in AOTC that plenty of ships are reaching orbit and are orbiting with zero sign of any kind of attack being pressed against them.

[lord Martiya]

They could be far from the battle zone.

[Warsie]

the CIS lost because most of their droids were either in Core Ships or being loaded on the Core Ships, the Republic had surprise too and Dooku ordered them all to retreat.

[Knife]

The CIS lost because they started from a tactically inferior position while the smaller Republic force had a superior position and surprise to boot.

All the Coreships were landed and had to take off, while the Acclamators were already powered up and coming down on top of them. In fact, most of the CIS ships were just parked and for the most part, their droid army was not deployed for combat.

In short, the CIS got ambushed and got it's teeth kicked in by it. No big surprise.

[Baal]

Look at it this way.

Palpatine and Dooku needed the CIS to lose. If the CIS wins then the Republic loses most if not all its Jedi and a huge portion of its new army (yeah yeah I know).

This momentum would allow the CIS to move forward much more and really might reduce Palpatines influence over the CIS leadership.

The CIS were fighting with assets that were much more expendable as far as the Sith would be concerned.

Remember the Sith never wanted the CIS to win. They wanted a war that neither side could win so that the war lasted as long as possible and granted the Chancellor as much power as possible.

[Baal]

Also I remember that somewhere it is mentioned that the Jedi took out the central control computer.

Now this only stopped the Droid army for a few seconds but it did have a bigger impact.

What is more dangerous on the battlefield. A million droids being orchestrated by a single master computer or a million droids all fighting as individuals with no large scale tactical coordination.

[PainRack]

Now what struck me was that the CIS essentially is able to get 46 battleships into orbit with a large number of escorts and yet still retreats against a force of 12 troop transports that are grounded on the planet discharging their troops. And yet still retreats from the battle surrendering Geonosis, an important economic and political asset to Republic occupation.

The Republic supposedly brought in additional assets later from the games, more importantly, the majority of the ships present weren't battleships but transports and freighters, as per AOTC novelisation. Its explictly mentioned that this and surprise was what allowed the Republic navy to win in the novel.

An alternative is that the 12 acclaimators listed in the Complete locations book is simply the number that landed troops, with a larger number of ships remaining in orbit to combat the enemy fleet off screen from what occurs in the film. As I understand it from wookiepedia there is a space battle over Geonosis that occurs in some comic or other.

To be honest, that my preferred retcon too. Otherwise, a mere 6 or so transports couldn't possibly land enough forces to overwhelm such a large army.

I think this excerpt from the AOTC screenplay is quite telling as to the intended size of the Republic invasion:

Alternately, they're referring to the LAATs.

[The Original Nex]

An alternative is that the 12 acclaimators listed in the Complete locations book is simply the number that landed troops, with a larger number of ships remaining in orbit to combat the enemy fleet off screen from what occurs in the film. As I understand it from wookiepedia there is a space battle over Geonosis that occurs in some comic or other.

Indeed, IIRC my calcs a while back determined that one would need at least 45 Accs to land the number of troops that the ITW states are present. One could stipulate that the remaining 33 returned to orbit after disembarking troops while 12 remained on the battlefield.

EDIT: Here's my actual reasoning as posted on Wookiepedia:

I know that the AotC ITW mentions that 12 Acclamators were deployed to the battlefields of Geonosis, which is sufficient to transport the 192,000 Clone Infantry and 8,000 clone vehicle crew for the 200,000 clones present at the ground battle. However, the ITW also says there were 2160 AT-TE walkers. Here lies the rub. 12 Acclamators can only transport 576 AT-TEs. In order to transport 2160 AT-TEs 45 Acclamators are needed. However there is not necesarily a discrepancy. The 12 Acclamators number is likely the number of Accs that landed to disembark clones, while the remaining Acclamators launched their LAAT/i and AT-TEs in low orbit, and remained in space to engage the TF Battleships.

[(name here)]

The core ships are unarmed. If they waited in orbit to reactivate the ring weapons, they would have been crushed, and even if they activated they were out gunned, because they have no turbolasers and their guns are not all able to focus on a single target. Plus the Acclamators have those heavy strategic torpedoes, which may tip the balance further.

[Anguirus]

The core ships are unarmed.

The AotC ICS disagrees with you...they have point-defense lasers. No HTLs though, so Acclamators could knock them down without trouble.

Once it unites with the ring, though, it should be able to annihilate Acclamators.

[SCVN 2812]

The core ships are unarmed.

The AotC ICS disagrees with you...they have point-defense lasers. No HTLs though, so Acclamators could knock them down without trouble.

Once it unites with the ring, though, it should be able to annihilate Acclamators.

Perhaps but those rings could very easily have still been the upgunned freighters from the Phantom Menace, the Battle of Coruscant was to my knowledge the first time a Lucrehulk showed up with a ring making it worthy of being called a battleship.

[(name here)]

The core ships are unarmed.

The AotC ICS disagrees with you...they have point-defense lasers. No HTLs though, so Acclamators could knock them down without trouble.

Once it unites with the ring, though, it should be able to annihilate Acclamators.

oh, i don't have the ICS, just the new essential guide to vheicles and vessels.

Perhaps but those rings could very easily have still been the upgunned freighters from the Phantom Menace, the Battle of Coruscant was to my knowledge the first time a Lucrehulk showed up with a ring making it worthy of being called a battleship.

yes, IIRC, the up gunning to real combat status started after genosis.

[Anguirus]

yes, IIRC, the up gunning to real combat status started after genosis.

Even the armament it was packing in Episode I (remember the guns that were larger than the Queen's entire ship?) should be able to deal with an armed heavy transport/frigate. In particular, the Acclamator should be utterly unable to pierce that thing's shields.

[(name here)]

um, the acclamators have HTLs, not just large quad laser mounts. They are also armed with those torpedo launchers, which could even the odds significantly. i'd say that 10+ of the core ships heavy guns can't even target any given starship, because the core is in the way

And then there is the fact that we really have no idea if the tradefed battleships, which are converted freighters, have military grade shields and armor

[Anguirus]

um, the acclamators have HTLs, not just large quad laser mounts.

Call them whatever you wish, but they are larger than the Venator's HTLs so I'm inclined to think they are pretty potent.

i'd say that 10+ of the core ships heavy guns can't even target any given starship, because the core is in the way

That's a flaw, but only at the hyper-close ranges we usually see in the movies. They *could* have just accelerated away and blasted the crap out of any Republic starships, but I think Dooku and Gunray ordered a retreat instead of a stand. (Dooku probably on purpose, and Gunray because he's no warrior.)

And then there is the fact that we really have no idea if the tradefed battleships, which are converted freighters, have military grade shields and armor

Armor is irrelevant. Shields were impervious to a rather sizable wing of Naboo fighters...they may be only fighters but Amidala and Qui-Gon thought they had a chance to pull it off. The plan probably failed because the vessel DID have military-grade shields (i.e. [paraphrasing] "But there is great risk. The shields may be too strong for your fighters to penetrate").

If there isn't canon evidence of Acclamators pwning Battleships with their shields up and weapons hot, I'm inclined to think it ain't ever going to happen. The ship is just in a VASTLY different weight class.

[(name here)]

isn't it belived that fighters are mostly ineffective agianst cap ships anyway, thus meaning that we don't know if they are in between freighter and military shielding, or where they may fall on the scale? and, to return to my original post, might they be at risk in orbit if the linkage of ring and core ship takes a while? The cores themselves are easy meat for the ground artillery, which means that if they were only partially linked, they'd be at risk of being shredded by the acclamators before they could fire. Although, it is possible that they could have won, assuming the republic had no proper cap ships in route, which might well not be a safe assumption, and might not be made anyway.

[Adrian Laguna]

It should be noted that despite having hundreds, if not thousands, of ships blockading Naboo in TPM, the Trade Federation was scared shitless of the possibility of the Republic intervening militarily. That was why they were so desperate to get Amidala to sign documents that would make the invasion legal. Clearly the Republic, even in its demilitarized state, has sufficient naval assets to be a threat to hundreds of Lucrehulks. Thus it makes sense that the CIS forces might run away, because if they stay and it turns out the cavalry's coming to back-up the Clone Army, they are very much fucked.

[Knife]

um, the acclamators have HTLs, not just large quad laser mounts.

Call them whatever you wish, but they are larger than the Venator's HTLs so I'm inclined to think they are pretty potent.

The size of the turret or gun emplacement would mean less than the size of the power generator it's hooked up to, I would think. While it makes a certain amount of sense for each rating of gun to be able to handle X amount of energy, for the heavy guns, it would need to handle a majority of the power out put of the ship to be an effective heavy weapon.

Sooo, call em what you want, but is the Acclamator power core bigger than the Venator core or more to the point, does the Acclamator generate more power than the Venstar.

[Connor MacLeod]

The episode 2 ITW book mentions that the core ships were unarmed. Even assuming they still carried the 42 quadguns from the TPM era, that firepower isnt apparently going to do much use while on the ground, sincee a good dose of the C&C shit is in the core bulb. (which is why they tried to get into orbit, I believ the novel even covered that point.)

Moreover, those "battleships" weren't a whole lot better than carriers. Even when the Separatists got serious and built better warships (and upgunned the toilet bowl BBs), they generally didn't match the firepower of their NR equivalents (Separatist destroyer needed 4-6 odds to take on a Venator, IIRC)
It also doesnt help taht the toilet bowl BBs of theTPM era had shitty gun coverage (not a problem at range, but up close..)

In any case, without knowing the actual size of the Republic fleet in orbit, we can't really determine that the Separatists had a chance up there at all.

On the ground the issue is even more one sided. The Clones had air support frorm gunships, the Separatists didn't (there wee thousands of Geonosian fighters but they went mainly to fight in orbit - bad move that.)

Moreover, they lacked much in the way of heavy vehicles or artillery. They had some AA, and the hailfire droids, but eally that was it. The Republic had superior ground attack vehicles, which made a HUGE difference. The fact the clones had heavier weapons probably didn't hurt either.

Heavy weapons (IE those mounted on the Acclamators) was useless however due to the use of sheidls (on starships and otherwise.) Besides, the Republic wanted to capture the planet and tis facilities, so you dont generally want to go blasting the place.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Moreover, those "battleships" weren't a whole lot better than carriers. Even when the Separatists got serious and built better warships (and upgunned the toilet bowl BBs), they generally didn't match the firepower of their NR equivalents (Separatist destroyer needed 4-6 odds to take on a Venator, IIRC)
It also doesnt help taht the toilet bowl BBs of theTPM era had shitty gun coverage (not a problem at range, but up close..)

Well, the Separatist destroyers in question were no more than skeletal armour with droid crews and so forth for the most part. A better comparison would have been the Providence class which should be a better match. Pity we don't see much of the stats of the ship beyond the heavily modified Invisible Hand, which had a good chunk of her reactor spaces gutted for a larger hanger.

I believe the tactics for the Separatists were also different. They mounted huge guns on their light destroyers which could deal a fair bit of damage on a Venator if they worked in concert.

[Darthbane2011]

Look at it this way.

Palpatine and Dooku needed the CIS to lose. If the CIS wins then the Republic loses most if not all its Jedi and a huge portion of its new army (yeah yeah I know).

This momentum would allow the CIS to move forward much more and really might reduce Palpatines influence over the CIS leadership.

The CIS were fighting with assets that were much more expendable as far as the Sith would be concerned.

Remember the Sith never wanted the CIS to win. They wanted a war that neither side could win so that the war lasted as long as possible and granted the Chancellor as much power as possible.

Yeah, this is basically the answer.

Palpatine was playing both sides of the war; as Palpatine who is the leader of the republic, and as Darth Sidious who is the leader of the CIS. His plan to stretch the jedi thin and initate Order 66 wouldn't have worked if he had the CIS win.