Ork evolution

[Cykeisme]

I've been wondering.. is there any mechanism by which Orks are still evolving?

Normal biological species would evolve by having some random variation in each successive generation that is selected upon by various selective pressures.
The life of an average Ork makes the term "selective pressure" sound like a joke of an understatement, but then there's the matter of mutation/variation.

With Orks, they seem to have a massive amount of information encoded into theri genetic structure (which likely doesn't use DNA molecules, but that's up for discussion too) including variants from Squigs to Orks. Most amazingly, they also have everything from language to battle tactics and vast amounts of science and engineering knowledge built into their genetic structure (though the Old Ones might partly done some masterful Warp manipulation to allow this).

Considering how much complexity was built into the Orkoid race, I assume that for the large part, mutation would want to be avoided when the Old Ones designed them.. and indeed, Orks have a mechanism for that. They kill any boyz that they deem to be too Un-Orky.


However, the fact that there are certain warbosses that go above and beyond the call of orky duty and occassionally a Waaagh! of exceptional size and success is raised, seems to suggest that there IS some variation, and more successful Orks come about.

Now, the question is, if there IS indeed beneficial variation, is there a mechanism to ensure that more Orks like this are produced?
I understand that adult Orks produce spores throughout their life; perhaps the older an Ork is, the more spores it produces? Considering age in an Ork almost invariably connotes success in battle, this could be the case.
If spores are produced through the skin, it also follows that since an Ork gets bigger and stronger throughout their fightin' life, their skin surface area also increases as a matter of fact.

Thoughts on any of this?

[Hawkwings]

The longer an ork lives, the more spores it releases. So a big warboss would have released far more spores than a random boy that got offed quickly.

[Zor]

The Orks do break off into new factions with diferent copacities when pressures arise, the Blood Axes are more keen on stratagy and are orginziation than the rest of their race, most likely because of this allows individuals and groups of Blood Axe orks to live longer and spread their genes more. What is Orky is rather subjective to what the majority of the orks think it si, If all of the other Clanz died off most likely the sort, Orks behaving like a bunch of mindless Goffs would most likely get a right good kickin' fo' being stupid gits dat go get demselvez 'nd der Krumpany blown ta bits.

Zor

[Peptuck]

However, the fact that there are certain warbosses that go above and beyond the call of orky duty and occassionally a Waaagh! of exceptional size and success is raised, seems to suggest that there IS some variation, and more successful Orks come about.

This isn't mutation; its completely normal for an Ork who gets big enough to begin developing the ambition to start a WAAAAGH. This is covered farily well in the 4th Edition Ork Codex, which specifies that Meks or Warbosses who start WAAAAGHs do so when naturally inspired to do so.

[Turin]

Orks behaving like a bunch of mindless Goffs would most likely get a right good kickin' fo' being stupid gits dat go get demselvez 'nd der Krumpany blown ta bits.

This isn't mutation; its completely normal for an Ork who gets big enough to begin developing the ambition to start a WAAAAGH.

I hope this isn't considered a thread-jack, but for the WH40K-uninitiated... why does every thread involving WH40K Orks involve people writing like retards? I'm really not trying to be snarky, but is there some kind of in-joke in the official fluff where all articles about Orks read like this?

[The Grim Squeaker]

Orks behaving like a bunch of mindless Goffs would most likely get a right good kickin' fo' being stupid gits dat go get demselvez 'nd der Krumpany blown ta bits.

This isn't mutation; its completely normal for an Ork who gets big enough to begin developing the ambition to start a WAAAAGH.

I hope this isn't considered a thread-jack, but for the WH40K-uninitiated... why does every thread involving WH40K Orks involve people writing like retards? I'm really not trying to be snarky, but is there some kind of in-joke in the official fluff where all articles about Orks read like this?

It's an in-joke. Orks talk that way (toke lik'' dis, got it goff?), which in-universe is actually classic English.
In other words, Da ORks speak Cockney, get itt?

[Gullible Jones]

Yes. Apparently Orks have a cockney accent.

[Turin]

It's an in-joke. Orks talk that way (toke lik'' dis, got it goff?), which in-universe is actually classic English.
In other words, Da ORks speak Cockney, get itt?

Got it. Is there a reasonable in-universe reason why Orks 38000 years from now speak "classic" English (Cockney), or is it just for humor value?

[Aaron]

Got it. Is there a reasonable in-universe reason why Orks 38000 years from now speak "classic" English (Cockney), or is it just for humor value?

It's supposed to be a variation on the Imperium's language: Gothic. It's just all fucked up because Orks lack the ability to pronounce the words properly.

[Turin]

It's supposed to be a variation on the Imperium's language: Gothic. It's just all fucked up because Orks lack the ability to pronounce the words properly.

They speak "Gothic"? I really have to check out this WH40K stuff because it sounds weird/funny/cool. But thanks for the explanation.

And now back to your regularly scheduled Sci-fi discussion.

[Aaron]

They speak "Gothic"? I really have to check out this WH40K stuff because it sounds weird/funny/cool. But thanks for the explanation.

And now back to your regularly scheduled Sci-fi discussion.

Yep, there's High Gothic and Low Gothic. Orks have their own language as well but all I know about that is there's lots of swearing and beating on each other.

[Imperial Overlord]

They speak "Gothic"? I really have to check out this WH40K stuff because it sounds weird/funny/cool. But thanks for the explanation.

There are a large number of Gothic dialects and they make up the common language of the Imperium. High Gothic, the faux latin stuff, is the language of the educated elite of the Imperium. Gothic is a distant descendent of modern English.

[Zor]

They speak "Gothic"? I really have to check out this WH40K stuff because it sounds weird/funny/cool. But thanks for the explanation.

There are a large number of Gothic dialects and they make up the common language of the Imperium. High Gothic, the faux latin stuff, is the language of the educated elite of the Imperium. Gothic is a distant descendent of modern English.

I read it as a being a composite language dirived from many difernt sorces and corrupted over thousands of years.

Zor

[Imperial Overlord]

Gothic probably steals from a dozen different langauges and mutates according to local conditions and isolation, but it is a descendant of English. Just think about how much English has changed and branched out in the last thousand years and then multiply it by say 40 to get an idea of how funky Low Gothic must be in 40K.

[Peptuck]

When communicating in Gothic to humans, the Orks do apparently speak Cockney - or rather, that's how it comes out in the ears of the humans they're yelling it at. From what I've read elsewhere, such as Caves of Ice and Ghostmaker they have their own language for speaking among themselves, but according to Inquisitor Vail, it mostly consists of "insults and blows to the head."

In universe, their tusks prevent them from pronouncing words properly and their general mindset alters words that come out, so "humans" becomes "'umies", "shooter" becomes "shoota" and "Exceptionally Well-Designed Lifting-and-Throwing-Mechanism for Heavy Bipedal Mech" becomes "dat big Lifta-Droppa on da Gargant dat's dead killy!"

I really have to check out this WH40K stuff because it sounds weird/funny/cool. But thanks for the explanation.

40k is right up there with Schlock Mercenary in how hilariously over the top it gets, but unlike Schlock, 40k is serious.

Well, as serious as you can get with 300 meter tall walking death cathedrals, chainsaw swords, space elves with buttplug helmets and guns that shoot ninja stars, robot zombie terminators sent by star gods to purge the galaxy, and Orks, who literally fix machines by yelling at them and hitting them with their wrenches, and whose vehicles literally go faster because they are painted red.

[Adrian Laguna]

The relationship between High Gothic and Low Gothic is described as similar to the relationship between Modern English and Latin. That is why High Gothic is typically rendered as Latin in the case of names for ships, titans, organizations, and certain other things. The Titan named Dies Irae isn't literally named that, it's actual name is however "Day of Wrath" is written in High Gothic, which we don't know because Games Workshop can't be arsed to make-up languages when they can borrow an existing one that sounds really cool.


BTW - Latin sounds cooler when you pronounce it right. For example, the proper pronunciation of Caesar is Kaisar.

[hongi]

Latin sounds less cooler when you realise that Caesar originally meant hairy. Or Caecilius originally meant blind. Or Brutus meant stupid. And so on.

[Adrian Laguna]

Latin sounds less cooler when you realise that Caesar originally meant hairy. Or Caecilius originally meant blind. Or Brutus meant stupid. And so on.

Hardly most languages are chock full of names with silly original meanings.

[Cykeisme]

However, the fact that there are certain warbosses that go above and beyond the call of orky duty and occassionally a Waaagh! of exceptional size and success is raised, seems to suggest that there IS some variation, and more successful Orks come about.

This isn't mutation; its completely normal for an Ork who gets big enough to begin developing the ambition to start a WAAAAGH. This is covered farily well in the 4th Edition Ork Codex, which specifies that Meks or Warbosses who start WAAAAGHs do so when naturally inspired to do so.

I'm aware that Orks naturally begin to WAAAGH!! once their numbers reach a critical mass, and the biggest Ork naturally leads due to their hierarchy being based upon the 'ardest one being in charge.

However, there are some who raise unusually successful WAAAGHs, far beyond most others.. namely Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka, for example, although that can be attributed somewhat to his head injury.

Well, as serious as you can get with 300 meter tall walking death cathedrals, chainsaw swords, space elves with buttplug helmets and guns that shoot ninja stars, robot zombie terminators sent by star gods to purge the galaxy, and Orks, who literally fix machines by yelling at them and hitting them with their wrenches, and whose vehicles literally go faster because they are painted red.

w00t!

[white_rabbit]

However, there are some who raise unusually successful WAAAGHs, far beyond most others.. namely Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka, for example, although that can be attributed somewhat to his head injury.

Well, you've basically answered your question there, Orks naturally produce some exceptional leaders, Thraka is a product of Grotsnik sticking a bonesaw a little too far into Thrakas brain when he was fitting that skull plate, plus whatever natural talents he might have.

As a whole BTW< the Orks on Armageddon are bigger and meaner than the average ork.

Also, orks and eldar have been around for millions of years, long enough for Eldar fossils to be dug up as I recall, there doesn't appear to have been any appreciable "evolution"

Might have something to do with their design. *shrug*

[Lonestar]

The relationship between High Gothic and Low Gothic is described as similar to the relationship between Modern English and Latin. That is why High Gothic is typically rendered as Latin in the case of names for ships, titans, organizations, and certain other things. The Titan named Dies Irae isn't literally named that, it's actual name is however "Day of Wrath" is written in High Gothic, which we don't know because Games Workshop can't be arsed to make-up languages when they can borrow an existing one that sounds really cool.

Incorrectly, it's explicitly stated in one of the HH novels that Dies Irae is written in an "ancient Earth Tongue".

[Molyneux]

Latin sounds less cooler when you realise that Caesar originally meant hairy. Or Caecilius originally meant blind. Or Brutus meant stupid. And so on.

We live on a planet that we have seen fit to name, over and over again in hundreds of different languages, "Dirt".

Caesar=hairy is the height of creativity and eloquence compared to Earth/Terra/whatever.

[NecronLord]

I've been wondering.. is there any mechanism by which Orks are still evolving?

Highly unlikely. The Old Ones 'gene-locked' the Eldar to stop them evolving, too. This is a process mentioned in Xenology

There is another, more troubling issue. As mentioned, evolution has spared the Eldar any changes. For such racial permanance one would expect a level of simplicity, as in sharks of Terra's inner oceans - unchanged in aeons past. But the Eldar represent psychological and physical complexity on an unknown scale. How has evolution not taken a hand in their simplification? How has their culture stagnated and turned so racially inwards? Such speculations lead me to one conclusion: That the Eldar have not reacted to the ravages of time in a natural fashion.
There are only two other beings I can thing of that may claim resistance to generational change. The first are those beings angineered by the craft of genitors and lost sciences, be they livestock or aristocratic bio-pets
The other, though its history is measured across a span far tinier than that of the Eldar, is mankind itself.¹

Similar processes are seen having been used on herd animals in Chaos Child, to keep animals adapted for a warmer climate on a pre-imperial world than they need to be, as eventually it was expected to warm up.

Orkoid genetics is very clearly and fundamentally tampered with, it uses a triple helix, with the third 'spine' being an 'algal strip of coding' that remains the same greardless of sub-species. Simply put, there's no evolution here. Only what the Old Ones chose to generate.

It seems that if you're a species created by the Old Ones, you don't get to determine your destiny. They select one for you.


¹ Obviously, this is religious doctrine. Humans in 40K have a wide demonstration of generational change. Ogryns, Ratlings and various other stable abhuman breeds spring to mind. Similarly, the Dark Eldar are somewhat different from the rest of the race, whether this is due to drugs, psionics (their DNA responds to psychic impulses) over-exposure to the webway, or deliberate dark eldar genetic alteration, is unknown.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Then what about humans in 40k? I'm still relatively new to the series, but from what I've gathered they are pretty much the only race that hasn't been fucked around with by some wierd and or mystic force other than themselves as far as their evolution is concerned.

[NecronLord]

Then what about humans in 40k? I'm still relatively new to the series, but from what I've gathered they are pretty much the only race that hasn't been fucked around with by some wierd and or mystic force other than themselves as far as their evolution is concerned.

Oh. They have. The C'tan have introduced the pariah gene, and it seems likely (given the relative lack of psykers amongst the Tau, and some other races) that psykers were introduced artificially too.