Hero's welcome for killer

[mr friendly guy]

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Hero's welcome for killer
November 13, 2007 - 12:20PM

A man convicted of killing an air traffic controller linked to a 2002 mid-air collision was given a hero's welcome as "a real human" by a pro-Kremlin group when he returned to Russia from a Swiss jail on Tuesday.

Vitaly Kaloyev, who lost his wife and children in the crash, was set free yesterday evening and immediately flew to Moscow, following last week's ruling by a Swiss court to cut his sentence to five years and three months, of which he had already served two-thirds.

Kaloyev stabbed to death Swiss air traffic controller Peter Nielsen, who was on duty the night of the collision between a cargo plane and a Russian charter transporting mostly Russian children on holiday that killed 71 people.

"I want to express my great thanks to all the citizens of Russia, to the Russian president for the strong support they extended to me," Kaloyev told dozens of journalists on his arrival at Domodedovo Airport outside Moscow.

"While in prison, I did not feel I was away from my motherland."

He was met by relatives who had come from his native South Ossetia in the northern Caucasus but outside hundreds of youths from the pro-Kremlin Nashi movement formed a chain along a motorway leading to Moscow.

"Kaloyev is our man," they chanted in chorus, braving frosty wind and snow. "You are a real human being!" read the posters they held.

Kaloyev had initially been sentenced to eight years in jail for the killing, but the split verdict said last week he could not be held accountable for his action.

One of the judges told the media that Kaloyev did not come to Switzerland intending to kill Nielsen but had lost control of himself when the man refused to offer apologies after Kaloyev had shown him pictures of his children.

A Swiss court this year found four air traffic control managers guilty of manslaughter over the accident, giving three of them 12-month suspended sentences each and fining the fourth. Four other employees were acquitted.

Defendants in the trial mainly blamed Nielsen - who was alone on duty on the night of the accident - for poorly handling the events leading up to the crash in Swiss-controlled air space over the German town of Ueberlingen.

When the two planes collided, both the main and the backup telephone were out of order, radar software displaying flight co-ordinates was in a restricted mode and Nielsen's only colleague was on a coffee break.

Reuters

posted without comment

[Shinova]

Let me see if I have this straight:


Pilot crashes into another plane, losing his wife and children in the process, due to negligence by the air traffic controller (supposedly). He goes to controller and asks/demands apologies and goes out of control when denied and kills the guy.

Is that how it went?

[Vympel]

Not feeling like this is much of an injustice, to be honest. Going fucking nuts at that guy definitely sounds plausible.

[fgalkin]

Not feeling like this is much of an injustice, to be honest. Going fucking nuts at that guy definitely sounds plausible.

Especially considering that Kaloyev was actually present at the crash site and personally retrieved his daughter's body. That's gotta leave a mark.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[PeZook]

Not feeling like this is much of an injustice, to be honest. Going fucking nuts at that guy definitely sounds plausible.

He shouldn't get a heroe's welcome, though. This is just a celebration of vigilantism.

[K. A. Pital]

The Skyguide inspector's criminal neglience led to the death of many humans, who were children.

He was not put in jail for the rest of his fucking life now, wasn't he? Instead, a lot of lobbying made it certain that none of the Skyguide assholes at fault, who ensured bad security practices (there was a documentary about it recently) - like the 1-employee overstrained between control terminals with no replacement - faced prison.

Vigilante justice? Might be. Were I in his position, that is, were my children to die from someone's criminal neglience, I'd kill him if I saw that his trial does not give any results.

Because this

A Swiss court this year found four air traffic control managers guilty of manslaughter over the accident, giving three of them 12-month suspended sentences each and fining the fourth. Four other employees were acquitted.

is fucking ridiculous. Manslaughter due to criminal neglience should have much tougher punishment.

Besides, as the guy did not intend to kill him but merely asked for an apology and went nuts when the man who was responsible for manslaughter refused that, I could see how I can emphatize with Kaloev and not the mock justice against the inspectors who are guilty in the deaths of several dozen people.

[PeZook]

He was not put in jail for the rest of his fucking life now, wasn't he? Instead, a lot of lobbying made it certain that none of the Skyguide assholes at fault, who ensured bad security practices (there was a documentary about it recently) - like the 1-employee overstrained between control terminals with no replacement - faced prison.

Yeah, I know the sentence was a disgrace. But making the killer a local hero? Come on. Society shouldn't reward this kind of behavior. Is there a reason the Russian government didn't push for a stricter sentence, though? I don't know much about details of the case.

[Flagg]

So he's not really guilty because he "went nuts", but he should be celebrated as a hero even though "going nuts" means he wasn't in control?

[K. A. Pital]

Society shouldn't reward this kind of behavior.

I agree, but I don't remember national TV praising him or something. His local village though obviously was, and the Ossetia population in general I believe. Ossetia in general is long a "crawling" conflict zone, neighboring with Caucasus, as I'm sure you know. I believe most of the people there support that kind of action.

As for "Nashi", they're the "Nashists" or "Putinjugend", they're marked by ridiculous actions from both past and present. Actually the government sometimes has problems controlling the radical nationalist factions of the "Nashi". It also runs some sort of purges in the "Nashi" - for example, some those who participated at the debacle near the Estonian embassy were sent to Vladivostok to coordinate the youth commitees there.

There's not a lot of support for "Nashi" among the general population, but a growing disdain - not to mention that the Putin government in general is losing charisma fast. The foods inflation I mentioned led to a peculiar polling result just beforethe elections - according to VTSIOM, ~30% of Russians on the average are ready to take part in anti-government protests, while in the regions this figure is as high as 42% (Moscow and SPb have 21-24%, a natinonal low of protesters).

This is not the first time a Putinist movement has fucked up. The "Idushie Vmeste" were reviled and quickly put off-media attention after their public book-burning in Moscow. Both old and young Russians clearly recalled that this is a Nazi practice, and this nationalist "movement" was swept under the carpet by the Kremlin to avoid further public anger.

[Raw Shark]

Let me see if I have this straight:

Pilot crashes into another plane, losing his wife and children in the process, due to negligence by the air traffic controller (supposedly). He goes to controller and asks/demands apologies and goes out of control when denied and kills the guy.

Is that how it went?

There were presumably at least two pilots involved, but I'm not seeing where one of them is identified as the murderer in the article.

[Adrian Laguna]

The Skyguide inspector's criminal neglience led to the death of many humans, who were children.

He was not put in jail for the rest of his fucking life now, wasn't he? Instead, a lot of lobbying made it certain that none of the Skyguide assholes at fault, who ensured bad security practices (there was a documentary about it recently) - like the 1-employee overstrained between control terminals with no replacement - faced prison.

Vigilante justice? Might be. Were I in his position, that is, were my children to die from someone's criminal neglience, I'd kill him if I saw that his trial does not give any results.

Besides, as the guy did not intend to kill him but merely asked for an apology and went nuts when the man who was responsible for manslaughter refused that, I could see how I can emphatize with Kaloev and not the mock justice against the inspectors who are guilty in the deaths of several dozen people.

He killed the wrong guy. Peter Nilsen is not responsible in any way. Peter Nilsen was just the unlucky bastard in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's not his fault his co-worker decided to take a break leaving him manning two consoles, it's not his fault maintenance personnel took the phones off-line, not his fault the back-up line didn't work, it's not his goddammed fault that the bodies regulating air traffic had failed to issue regulations for when TCAS and air-traffic controllers give conflicting orders. The last one despite a few near misses in the previous years, including one in Japan that dammed near killed over 600 people if not for some last minute manoeuvres on the part of both pilots that injured about a 100 passengers.

Nielsen wasn't even put on trial, IIRC. Read the article, it says "four air traffic control managers guilty of manslaughter". He wasn't a manager, he was a controller. They found his bosses guilty of manslaughter, because they are the ones at fault for the lax regulations that led to the accident.

Now I can certainly see how Kaloyev's plight might be sympathized with. The grief from his loss pretty much broke his mind. But the man he killed is nothing more than yet another victim of this whole tragedy, and Kaloyev shouldn't not be praised in any way. It wasn't vigilante justice, it was just a sad epilogue to an already tragic story.

[Adrian Laguna]

Shit, it's in the article itself.

When the two planes collided, both the main and the backup telephone were out of order, radar software displaying flight co-ordinates was in a restricted mode and Nielsen's only colleague was on a coffee break.

He killed, in the words of Stas Bush, "the 1-employee overstrained between control terminals with no replacement". He did not kill one the Skyguide managers responsible for creating such a situation in the first place, which I would find somewhat understandable in light of the light sentence that they got.

[brianeyci]

Honestly I don't really understand how you can empathize with a cold blooded killer. He may not have went there to kill the guy, but it must have been in the back of his mind. I know this is SDN and we make a huge hoopla about stupid people deserving it, but unless the air traffic controller had malicious intent it is not the same as someone plotting revenge. The distinction is rather important: air traffic controllers are among the most stressed professions, and if this was a mistake due to a lapse in judgment it's in no way comparable to cold blooded murder. It is far more stressful than say, driving a car, and insurance exists and is required because countries acknowledge the fact even the best intentioned most dilligent driver may make a mistake. I'm not saying that's what happened here -- in fact worse seems to have happened here, it seems to be not the controller's fault at all but management's -- but I thought of this.

And if I thought of this, Kaloyev must have thought of this too. The price of having a human in the loop in a critical situation like this is many close calls and possibly deaths in a decades spanning career.

I could have sympathy for the guy if say, his family had been raped or brutally murdered, but just because his family died... I don't think so, disappeared as soon as he took another life. Unless the air traffic controller dervied gratification from the deaths Kaloyev isn't in the moral right. Just because he didn't apologize, doesn't mean he liked the deaths. And despite all the bullshit about revenge never satisfying someone, I bet Kaloyev feels really good about himself and felt good after he murdered the guy.

I bet he felt really good, got a fucking high out of it too.

[Adrian Laguna]

Honestly I don't really understand how you can empathize with a cold blooded killer. He may not have went there to kill the guy, but it must have been in the back of his mind.

He had knife with him. Not saying that he meant to use it, but it's not a point in Kaloyev's favour. Zurich is not exactly a place where you have to carry a weapon around just in case.

Unless the air traffic controller dervied gratification from the deaths Kaloyev isn't in the moral right.

I think even if he derived gratification it's not morally right hold him responsible. As I've said before, the controller found himself incapable of preventing the situation due to numerous factors beyond his control. He didn't cause it, nor did he want it to happen, his reaction to it is irrelevant.

Just because he didn't apologize, doesn't mean he liked the deaths.

Having said the above, I'm pretty sure that Peter Nielsen was deeply troubled by what happened. It's entirely possible he felt guilty about it, and denial, a very common human reaction, was the way he dealt with the feelings of guilt. He didn't want to apologize, because doing so would shatter his coping mechanism. That's just a hypothesis, but it illustrates how refusal to apologize does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that he was ambivalent about the tragedy.

And despite all the bullshit about revenge never satisfying someone, I bet Kaloyev feels really good about himself and felt good after he murdered the guy. I bet he felt really good, got a fucking high out of it too.

Now Brian, let's not jump to conclusions here. Though he most certainly doesn't appear to be remorseful about it.

[Darth Wong]

Honestly I don't really understand how you can empathize with a cold blooded killer. He may not have went there to kill the guy, but it must have been in the back of his mind.

Why? If you're grief-stricken over the needless death of your family and you go to confront the asshole responsible, does it ever occur to you that you might not have anything more specific in mind than wanting to see this little bastard for yourself?

I know this is SDN and we make a huge hoopla about stupid people deserving it, but unless the air traffic controller had malicious intent it is not the same as someone plotting revenge. The distinction is rather important: air traffic controllers are among the most stressed professions, and if this was a mistake due to a lapse in judgment it's in no way comparable to cold blooded murder.

Criminal negligence is more than a lapse in judgment, and these fuckers were all going to get a slap on the wrist for it.

It is far more stressful than say, driving a car, and insurance exists and is required because countries acknowledge the fact even the best intentioned most dilligent driver may make a mistake. I'm not saying that's what happened here -- in fact worse seems to have happened here, it seems to be not the controller's fault at all but management's -- but I thought of this.

If you fucked up and got people killed, would you actually look smugly at family members of the deceased and say that you refuse to say you're sorry?

And if I thought of this, Kaloyev must have thought of this too. The price of having a human in the loop in a critical situation like this is many close calls and possibly deaths in a decades spanning career.

Bullshit. You are assuming that someone who is in an incredibly turbulent emotional state actually had a concrete plan in mind. Hockey dads have been known to erupt into violent rages because of something that was said during a rinkside confrontation; would you argue that they were thinking of possibly murdering someone when they entered that confrontation?

I could have sympathy for the guy if say, his family had been raped or brutally murdered, but just because his family died... I don't think so, disappeared as soon as he took another life.

"Just because his family died?" Listen to yourself, it's incredible how full of shit you are. So it would be OK if they were raped or murdered, but since they merely perished in flames, that's totally different? If you were trying to get up on some kind of Buddhist moral high horse, you blew it by saying it would be OK if his family was raped or murdered. If you were trying to demonstrate that you know anything about what might go on in the mind of a father, you blew that when you said that it shouldn't be such a big deal that his family merely died.

Unless the air traffic controller dervied gratification from the deaths Kaloyev isn't in the moral right. Just because he didn't apologize, doesn't mean he liked the deaths. And despite all the bullshit about revenge never satisfying someone, I bet Kaloyev feels really good about himself and felt good after he murdered the guy.

I bet he felt really good, got a fucking high out of it too.

And your evidence for this bullshit is?

I'm not saying he should have gotten off scot-free, but to be quite honest, if you're responsible for the death of a man's family and you look him in the eye and say "I refuse to apologize", you're a fucking idiot if you don't expect violence. That's damned near Darwin award territory right there.

[Sephirius]

Here's one of those reconstruction videos of the accident.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7ugiCi5HPSk&feature=related

[brianeyci]

"Just because his family died?" Listen to yourself, it's incredible how full of shit you are. So it would be OK if they were raped or murdered, but since they merely perished in flames, that's totally different?

Hm, yes, you are right. I take back my post.

You're right about refusing to apologize. Only someone stupid would do that in front of a grief-stricken parent.

[Adrian Laguna]

Honestly I don't really understand how you can empathize with a cold blooded killer. He may not have went there to kill the guy, but it must have been in the back of his mind.

Why? If you're grief-stricken over the needless death of your family and you go to confront the asshole responsible, does it ever occur to you that you might not have anything more specific in mind than wanting to see this little bastard for yourself?

Note, it was the guy he thought was the asshole responsible. The actual assholes responsible are very much alive.

If you fucked up and got people killed, would you actually look smugly at family members of the deceased and say that you refuse to say you're sorry?

I'm not saying he should have gotten off scot-free, but to be quite honest, if you're responsible for the death of a man's family and you look him in the eye and say "I refuse to apologize", you're a fucking idiot if you don't expect violence. That's damned near Darwin award territory right there.

Not what happened. What I remember of Kaylev's own description of the events is that Nielsen couldn't look him in the eye, mumbled something unintelligible, and slapped away the hand holding pictures of Kaylev's family. That doesn't sound like the behaviour of someone who couldn't give a fuck, it's more like someone who is himself troubled by what happened, and is coping (or rather, failing to cope) through denial.

[K. A. Pital]

Nielsen missed a critical warning however.

The fact that Skyguide were assholes does not absolve him of responsibility for that.

Also, it is not as if lone manning of stations was any sort of "emergency" - according to the investigation, Skyguide routinely used this practice before. So Nielsen knew pretty much what kind of practices his company employed, and under what conditions he was expected to operate.

Are Skyguide assholes? Sure. Did he miss a critical warning? He did.

[Adrian Laguna]

Nielsen missed a critical warning however.

The fact that Skyguide were assholes does not absolve him of responsibility for that.

There's some dispute about that. Nobody heard the warning, and there were other people in the room, including another controller next to the console dealing with the airspace where the crash occurred.

Also, it is not as if lone manning of stations was any sort of "emergency" - according to the investigation, Skyguide routinely used this practice before. So Nielsen knew pretty much what kind of practices his company employed, and under what conditions he was expected to operate.

This routine practice was explicitly against regulations, and for very good reasons.

Are Skyguide assholes? Sure. Did he miss a critical warning? He did.

I will agree that the controller is not entirely blameless. But I hesitate to say there should be consequences beyond perhaps not being allowed to continue working as an controller (doubt he wanted the job anyway).

[Master of Ossus]

Sorry, but if you're working in a critical industry like air traffic control, you have a professional and ethical responsibility for maintaining the safety of certain types of people. The air traffic controller who was killed failed to do that. It may not have been entirely his fault, but he was on duty at the time and he was ultimately responsible for what happened. The sentences handed out were a joke. I don't agree with killing him, but I can see how someone would be pissed about what happened and even sufficiently provoked to do something like this.

[Darth Wong]

<snip apologist tripe>

Obviously, you have no experience in any kind of profession where ethics and public safety are part of the job. If you witness unsafe practices, it is your ethical duty to do everything within your power to rectify the situation, and to resign in protest if those actions are ineffective. Saying nothing and continuing to draw a paycheque makes you a willing accomplice.

[K. A. Pital]

But I hesitate to say there should be consequences beyond perhaps not being allowed to continue working as an controller

He was working at an extreme responsibility job. Neglience in some areas just does not get the preface "criminal" because it doesn't lead to massive loss of human life. In this area, it does. Firing the responsible person is a grossly inadequate punishment. And the company's management should have gotten very tough sentences for contributing to Nielsen's failure by their reckless business practices.

[Terralthra]

<snip apologist tripe>

Obviously, you have no experience in any kind of profession where ethics and public safety are part of the job. If you witness unsafe practices, it is your ethical duty to do everything within your power to rectify the situation, and to resign in protest if those actions are ineffective. Saying nothing and continuing to draw a paycheque makes you a willing accomplice.

Even as far removed as I am from air traffic control and engineering public works where massive quantities of lives are at stake, I still have a position where I am held legally and ethically responsible for the lives of others, and Darth Wong is perfectly correct.

If I witness my coworkers not obeying the standards to which our restaurant is held to maintain the health of our clients, and specifically, if I see a fellow bartender continuing to serve someone who is intoxicated, and I say nothing and just keep pouring beers to my non-drunk customers, I'm guilty of a moral and ethical wrong. It's really that simple. Nielsen acted unethically.

As for the "they were getting a slap on the wrist" thing, Nielsen's murder occurred before the criminal investigation had even begun, so saying that Kaloyev's anger was justified based on Nielsen not getting punished is bullshit. Nielsen was not charged or punished because he was dead before the investigation began.

As for "refusing to apologize," all I'm going to say there is Kaloyev said:

"Apparently he did not expect that he would have to answer for the results of his work. He murmured something to me. Then I showed him some pictures of my children and said: 'They were my children. What would you feel if you saw your children in coffins?' I was infuriated about Skyguide's initiative to haggle over my dead children." Vitaly Kaloyev said he wanted Peter Nielsen to apologise to him for the death of his family. "He hit me on the hand, when I was holding the envelope with the photographs of my children. I only remember that I had a very disturbing feeling, as if the bodies of my children were turning over in their graves," said he. The man added that he did not remember what he did afterwards.

That doesn't sound like refusing to apologize. That sounds like not wanting to be shown pictures of the people for whose lives you are professional responsible, and whose deaths you helped cause.

[K. A. Pital]

As for the "they were getting a slap on the wrist" thing, Nielsen's murder occurred before the criminal investigation had even begun

Didn't Skyguide people try to blame everything on the Russian airliner crew immediately after the incident, even before any charges were levied?