Power generation limitation classification

[SirNitram]

Master of Ossus: I'm not trying to prove anything except that

(mostly because when torpedoes detonate, the explosion travels in all directions, losing at least half of the energy involved).

isn't always true.

SirNitram: No any thread where my views are challenged doesn't qualify as combative, I simply ventured forth some info to MOO and told him where he could look into it - I'm not trying to prove they are shaped because I have already read up on the arguments enough to be reasonably convinced however since you think the idea of the torps being shaped is stupidity maybe you should do a little research.

Check Strawman and Burden Of Proof fallacies, Darkling. Can you possibly form a coherent response without being a moron?

[Illuminatus Primus]

It appears to be a vastly miniturized superlaser-type device. Needless to say I doubt it will be very useful a whole light-year away (brain bug, it will take one year to travel that far). It is mounted on the Errant Venture (Booster Terrik's decomissioned ISD-II). They stripped out most of the TLs, including the main heavy turbolaser batteries, so this weapon likely takes the energy from all the missing weapons, charges this for several minutes, and then concentrates it into a pulse from the main weapon. It appears based off stolen schematics on the failed Hutt Darksabre weapon.

It only destroyed a Yuuzhan Vong destroyer (equivalent to a Imperial frigate or one of the WEG "cruisers"). Keep in mind YV hulls are shit. When you look at the evidence, it just seems to be a superminiturized version of the same weapon. Smaller scale but less power. It is likely the mini-SL is gone; when they stripped off the TL batteries of the Lusankya before using it as a battering ram, they used these to bolster and repair battle stations and warships. This included restoring the Errant Venture to full strength with all of its original weapons. Because of this, there is likely little room and no power for the curious microsuperlaser. It is hardly even close to a Soveriegn-class weapon.

[SirNitram]

Ah, so it is mounted on the Venture? Interesting.

However, the description from the Sourcebook makes it clear that 1) It carries the power of the DS-1 and 2) The beam reaches target in a reasonable timeframe. This suggests that the guy behind it(Who I think may be Sienar) found a way to shove the beam into Hyperspace.

[j1j2j3]

In Star Trek, the "problem" with phasers is not so much a matter of efficiency but capacity. Their phasers deliver power fairly efficiently (to the point where taking systems like life-support off-line substantially boost power), but the phasers are incapable of processing the entire warp core's power generation abilities.

If this were the only limiting factor, having lots and lots of phaser implacaments ( Similar to Star Wars ) would easily solve the problem.

Could there be other factors excepting low power generation by the warp core itself?

[Master of Ossus]

In Star Trek, the "problem" with phasers is not so much a matter of efficiency but capacity. Their phasers deliver power fairly efficiently (to the point where taking systems like life-support off-line substantially boost power), but the phasers are incapable of processing the entire warp core's power generation abilities.

If this were the only limiting factor, having lots and lots of phaser implacaments ( Similar to Star Wars ) would easily solve the problem.

Could there be other factors excepting low power generation by the warp core itself?

You can't really just glue on additional phaser arrays to a starship. You have to design one that is structurally sound, first. More importantly, though, it's questionable how useful additional phaser arrays would be. As it is, the phasers CAN accept the warp-core's output IF there is time to modify them, but this is not useful during combat scenarios because it would "leech" power from the shields, engines, and other combat-necessary functions.

[Connor MacLeod]

And the ISD-II...do you mean the supposed weapon Booster has? I want to see quotes. I doubt it can do what even the Eclipse or Soveriegn can do, and that's vastly less powerful then the DS I.

WOTC NJO sourcebook states that Booster had a weapon he bought from the hutts that was apparently derived from the Darksaber project they failed in (hinting that it was a superlaser). I'm not sure it indicates that an ISD-2 has planet-destroying firepower in a single shot, though

[Connor MacLeod]

clarification: on further reflection, I also noted that much of the stated data on the "weapon" the ISD-2 mounted was somewhat speculative/theoretical (IE it wasn't an "observed" thing, I believe). I also think it took a fairly long time to charge up (a minute at least.. I think more like an hour probably) - I had the quote somewhere but I lost it I'll post it when I find it.

The exact "place" in the book its pulled from is the section corresponding to Keye's "Edge of Victory" duology (The first novel, Conquest I believe, had the Venture jumping into the Yavin system to save the Jedi academy trainees from a Vong capital ship - although we dont know how they destroyed it in the novel, the WOTC book seems to indicate it was this superlaser weapon.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Here we go:

[quote]
pg 117

Terrik's latest weapon is a mystery to all but the smuggler and his top
officers. Rumored to have been purchased from the Hutts, the device takes up
a huge section of the Star Destroyer's central axis and runs almost the
length of the vessel. Charging the weapon takes several minutes, but firing
will-reputedly-destroy anything in its path up to a lighty-year away. Many
of the engineers who worked on connecting the weapon to the ship and
ensuring that it works frequently whisper the word "Darksaber" but Booster
Terrik merely says, "What secret weapon?"
[/q uote]

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ah, so it is mounted on the Venture? Interesting.

However, the description from the Sourcebook makes it clear that 1) It carries the power of the DS-1 and 2) The beam reaches target in a reasonable timeframe. This suggests that the guy behind it(Who I think may be Sienar) found a way to shove the beam into Hyperspace.

It says nothing about what it is other then a) it is mounted along the central axis and takes up significant volume, and b) that engineers who worked on the device's installation whisper "Darksabre" and that perhaps something to do with the Hutts was involved.

It destroyed a Yuuzhan Vong destroyer, which is not very large and their hulls are not as good as duraarmor against SW weapons, for sure.

The book just says the YV destroyer was "blazing like a newborn sun" after Terrik said "better get ready to fly through the Nebula I'm about to make."

There's nothing, anywhere suggesting firepower levels other than annhiliating the YV destroyer. Nothing supporting your assumptions of propogation rates.

The weapon is just a highly modified version of the basic superlaser principle with vastly lower firepower levels.

The idea that it has DS I level firepower or even Eclipse or Soveriegn level firepower is just wrong.

[j1j2j3]

In Star Trek, the "problem" with phasers is not so much a matter of efficiency but capacity. Their phasers deliver power fairly efficiently (to the point where taking systems like life-support off-line substantially boost power), but the phasers are incapable of processing the entire warp core's power generation abilities.

If this were the only limiting factor, having lots and lots of phaser implacaments ( Similar to Star Wars ) would easily solve the problem.

Could there be other factors excepting low power generation by the warp core itself?

You can't really just glue on additional phaser arrays to a starship. You have to design one that is structurally sound, first. More importantly, though, it's questionable how useful additional phaser arrays would be. As it is, the phasers CAN accept the warp-core's output IF there is time to modify them, but this is not useful during combat scenarios because it would "leech" power from the shields, engines, and other combat-necessary functions.

This would mean that the ultimately limiting factor is warp core output itself.

That brings up the second problem. What is causing the limitations in warp core power generation? Size of reactor ? Sustainable matter-antimatter reaction ?

Why can't they use a bigger reactor or use multiple reactors? They sure do have a lot of space. Or does this question bring us to the ultimate answer : B&B are idiots and would never do anything that would be tactically usefull.

[The Silence and I]

I would say B&B are indeed idiots. I'm of the opinion power delivery is the real problem, not limitations on phaser efficiency. For example, the Defiant is massively overpowered, so it makes sense that it has some serious phaser firepower. As MoO has pointed out, phasers can accept warp core power at the expense of other systems. So, if B&B had brains, maybie we would see ships with two or more warp cores-one for weapons and the other for any number of other ship systems, like shields/SIF/life support, etc.

[His Divine Shadow]

Wrong. The Eclipse could only pierce the crust and disrupt the internal structure of a planet. Enough to make it affectively uninhabitable, but FAR less firepower than the Death Star I, which could affectively disperse the mass of the entire planet. Orders of magnitude smaller. Moreover we don't know how long the Eclipse had to charge to attain such a weapon.

This is not as cut and dried as it looks, the power plant of the DS2 might physically fit in the frame of an ESSD.
The first quote mentions planetary shielding in the same sentence, which we know held of the first DS superlaser for 4 frames.

[His Divine Shadow]

Walkthrough of SE version:

Frame 67 - Contact with planetary shield
Frame 70 - Shield fails
Frame 72 - Beam ends

Total numer of frames: 5

Now this is 2e37j per frame, so the planetary shield took 6e37j before failing.

Now we could say that the absorbed energy exploded from the generators, causing the spherical explosion in the first place, or it was able to dissipate most of the beam as neutrinos hence making it so that most of the firepower in the DS beam was in the 2 last frames, that means the beam is rated at 5e37 per second, then the shield took 1.5e38j!!!

And the Death Star beams total strenght is then 2.5e38j

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh yes and if we take the quote from Dark Empire Sourcebook then:

Pg. 88: The Death Star's prime weapon was composed of eight individual lasers that could focus together, generating enough power to destroy an entire planet. By comparison, the Eclipse carries only a single laser, but recent focussing and generator advances make this ray much more powerful than the units used on the Death Star. The beam packs enough destructive power to shatter the most planetary shields and sear whole continents in a flash.

(ref: Dark Empire Sourcebook)

If the shields are that strong then it would make the Eclipse SL around 6e37j in order to shatter the shield, and maybe varying a fraction of a percent that would get through and sear a continent off.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wrong. The Eclipse could only pierce the crust and disrupt the internal structure of a planet. Enough to make it affectively uninhabitable, but FAR less firepower than the Death Star I, which could affectively disperse the mass of the entire planet. Orders of magnitude smaller. Moreover we don't know how long the Eclipse had to charge to attain such a weapon.

This is not as cut and dried as it looks, the power plant of the DS2 might physically fit in the frame of an ESSD.
The first quote mentions planetary shielding in the same sentence, which we know held of the first DS superlaser for 4 frames.

Who cares. You don't know if the period of the beam has different intensities and you don't know what the beam's wattage was.

You also don't know what types and grades of planetary shield there are.

[His Divine Shadow]

Who cares

Everyone?

You don't know if the period of the beam has different intensities and you don't know what the beam's wattage was

There was no indication of any variations or any other uknowns you are dragging into this.
The beams wattage is easily found as I've shown.

You also don't know what types and grades of planetary shield there are.

But even the rather weak Hoth shield could shrug of the combined bombardment of 5 ISD's and one SSD.
We know for certain that one ESSD >>> Hoth Shield since even planetary shields are shattered under it's power.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What about the "1,000 ships" calc?

If you put into account the DBZ for the ISDs, each, then the fact that enough ships could batter down the Coruscant shields, then you get the impression the shields aren't that strong when compared against the awesome power of the DS superlaser.

Simple enough, the superlaser vaping the crust/continents is more consistent with the scale of the weapons involved, especially when the much much larger DS prototype laser couldn't destroy a full-sized world either.

I don't understand why you insist on contradicting all of these scale indicators as well as the accepted truth that the GFFA is technologically stagnant to support one number from a book which lists the weaponry as probably wrong and gives a 8 km SSD.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It just doesn't mesh, especially when there's an additional quote supporting the "cracking the crust" description.

[Illuminatus Primus]

1E8-1E9 megatons with respect to a single ISD 1 hr BDZ.

6E37 J = 1.43E22 Megatons (approx)

You're going to claim that it took as much energy to bring down the shield as it did to destroy the planet?

Obviously, the destruction of Alderaan exceeded this quantity by many orders of magnitude. In fact, an energy estimate derived from Alderaan's rate of expansion leads to an estimate in the 1E22 megaton range (yes, that's at least 100 trillion times the K-T extinction asteroid impact, or as much energy as our Sun has generated since the time of Moses).

That's bullshit. An attack fleet downed Coruscant's double shields in less than a few days, and according to our BDZ calcs and Dodonna's ANH comment, we know that it would take thousands and thousands of ships to bring down the shields.

We KNOW the shields can't be that strong. You keep taking isolated incidents and the exception numbers and trying to make them fly rather then looking at the big picture.

Note: correct me if I'm wrong but I remember a 4.186E15 J as equal to 1 Megaton.

[His Divine Shadow]

What about the "1,000 ships" calc?

1000 ships couldn't destroy Alderaan like the DS, yeah they couldn't.
I don't see it's relevance.

If you put into account the DBZ for the ISDs, each, then the fact that enough ships could batter down the Coruscant shields, then you get the impression the shields aren't that strong when compared against the awesome power of the DS superlaser

We honestly don't know the firepower of the weapons on the ISD's or SSD's.
And the Coruscant shield thing, it'd require days of firing, say two, and hundreds of ISD's it was said, say 100, at the conservative 1TT shots and one broadside every ten seconds we get 4e29joules as a lowend figure for the ESSD's superlaser, and thats only to down the shield, to vape a continent we'd need another maybe 1e25j.

Simple enough, the superlaser vaping the crust/continents is more consistent with the scale of the weapons involved, especially when the much much larger DS prototype laser couldn't destroy a full-sized world either

Well the prototype I find rather irrelevant as of now, let's focus on the Eclipses minimum firepower rating that I've found, 4e29joules!!!!

I don't understand why you insist on contradicting all of these scale indicators as well as the accepted truth that the GFFA is technologically stagnant to support one number from a book which lists the weaponry as probably wrong and gives a 8 km SSD.

I don't understand why you think I am contradicting anything, the movies go first.

I've always accepted that they are technologically stagnant, but that doesn't exclude any advancements whatosever either, you're polarizing the issues into black & white, technology tends to move forward now and then, especially during war, so I don't see why it would be impossible.
Ofcourse it might not even be required.

I'm just stirring up the issue since it seems to be required.

[His Divine Shadow]

It just doesn't mesh, especially when there's an additional quote supporting the "cracking the crust" description.

The first quote on it's has no problems, the second quote badly paraphrases the first one, therein lies the problem.

[His Divine Shadow]

You're going to claim that it took as much energy to bring down the shield as it did to destroy the planet?

No, I'm showing it's possible.
We don't know enough.

That's bullshit. An attack fleet downed Coruscant's double shields in less than a few days, and according to our BDZ calcs and Dodonna's ANH comment, we know that it would take thousands and thousands of ships to bring down the shields.

What is bullshit now? And what is right? Is the attack fleet incident bullshit, or your calcs and dodonna's quote?

We KNOW the shields can't be that strong. You keep taking isolated incidents and the exception numbers and trying to make them fly rather then looking at the big picture.

Actually, I think I am looking at the big picture.

[His Divine Shadow]

Look IP, just to save you your nerves I'll just say the ESSD SL is 4e29joules and leave it at that.

Ofcourse any figures are dependant on what an HTL is capable of.

But using the Hoth example we know that the ESSD's superlaser is superior to the Death Squadrons combined firepower, with should be around 3e26joules or 8e10MT.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Eh I'll let it go.

The idea the DS I and the Eclipse could have similar firepower still seems odd to me.

But the ISD-II's superlaser device (what the thread was really about) is definitely short of planet devestating power.