Ghost in the Shell cyborgs versus Mogadishu

MJ12 Commando · Post by **MJ12 Commando** » 2007-11-15 06:52am

By act of thread, all the Rangers and Delta going into Operation Gothic Serpent are given Ghost in the Shell issue military cyberbodies like the ones Motoko and Batou have. Their vehicles and equipment are also changed out.

Their opposition... whatever sci-fi force you feel like, in equal numbers to the Somalis. Now, just to make this more interesting, they'll have equal competence to the Somalis, so any extremely elite forces you sub them with will have all the competence of African militia.

Now the question is... what forces would inflict roughly the same casualty ratio on the American (Empire) cyborgs as the real Somalis did in 1994?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2007-11-15 11:37am

If they have the relative competence of GitS rangers and African militiamen, then chances are the rangers are going to win up to and including StarWars stormtroopers, because the stormtroopers will run around up to their eyeballs on drugs and try to gangsta style shoot the thermoptically camouflaged rangers with their blasters; rangers who can easily hit them in their unarmored spots due to their cybernetic enhancement and will have air support.

Besides, the American Empire, as depicted in Ghost in the Shell, wouldn't give two shits about tactically nuking the neighborhood the warlord in question happened to be in and would only send in rangers in order to do something horrific to innocent bystanders, since all American characters in GitS are required to be bastards.

MJ12 Commando · Post by **MJ12 Commando** » 2007-11-15 05:23pm

To be more accurate, what I mean is that the Rangers/Deltas will use their normal tactics and techniques, and have their standard objectives.

The only condition in the opener is that the opposing force be capable of inflicting roughly the same amount of losses as the Mogadishu militiamen did, with whatever equipment they have and whatever competence militiamen do.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2007-11-15 05:29pm

What an incredibly pointless thread. If Mogadishu was filled with some sci fi force with better weapons and equipment then AK-47s and T-shirts the whole situation would have been handled completely differently. Instead of a small ranger task force, you’ve have two hundred plus vehicles from the 10th Mountain Division or probably a mechanized division deployed instead rolling into action.

Ryushikaze · Post by **Ryushikaze** » 2007-11-15 07:38pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Besides, the American Empire, as depicted in Ghost in the Shell, wouldn't give two shits about tactically nuking the neighborhood the warlord in question happened to be in and would only send in rangers in order to do something horrific to innocent bystanders, since all American characters in GitS are required to be bastards.

While the American Empire is generally Not Nice in GitS, I don't recall anything about them being so casually destructive.
And I'd while I agree that the majority of Americans we've met were assholes, I'd also make the argument that the majority of the characters in GitS are assholes, period.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2007-11-15 08:08pm

Ryushikaze wrote:While the American Empire is generally Not Nice in GitS, I don't recall anything about them being so casually destructive.

American Special Forces operators tortured and mutilated women and children in some South American shithole (see "Jungle Cruise"), and they conspired with Gouda to nuke Niihama (see the last episode of 'S.A.C. 2nd GIG'), presumably to support a coup that would replace PM Kayabuki with one who's pro-American.

Ryushikaze · Post by **Ryushikaze** » 2007-11-15 08:26pm

Sidewinder wrote:
Ryushikaze wrote:While the American Empire is generally Not Nice in GitS, I don't recall anything about them being so casually destructive.
American Special Forces operators tortured and mutilated women and children in some South American shithole (see "Jungle Cruise"), and they conspired with Gouda to nuke Niihama (see the last episode of 'S.A.C. 2nd GIG'), presumably to support a coup that would replace PM Kayabuki with one who's pro-American.

Point taken on the Spec Ops, but the 2nd gig situation was a long term plan to try and stage an unspoken coup of Japan. It's assholish, yes, but not a case of "they piss us off, drop a nuke on 'em" like Gil was suggesting they would. It strikes me as counterproductive, and we do know that they do actually commit ground forces to conflicts, as in Saito's backstory.

Gullible Jones · Post by **Gullible Jones** » 2007-11-15 08:34pm

It's not like the US hasn't tortured random people before. We've never done anything as nasty, as, say, Imperial Japan in China; but there's been some crazy shit. If the US decided to become a real empire, more of that would happen.

I have a bit more trouble imagining such casual employment of nukes, but there are people out there crazy enough to do it, and doubtless some of them would like to be president - or king.

I'd say it's less an insult than a warning. Then again, I don't know a great deal about Ghost in the Shell.

MJ12 Commando · Post by **MJ12 Commando** » 2007-11-15 08:56pm

Sidewinder wrote: American Special Forces operators tortured and mutilated women and children in some South American shithole (see "Jungle Cruise"), and they conspired with Gouda to nuke Niihama (see the last episode of 'S.A.C. 2nd GIG'), presumably to support a coup that would replace PM Kayabuki with one who's pro-American.

I believe Project Sunset was because they were Fed Up with guerillas and whatnot more than them being casually assholish.

And it was a CIA operation which was likely quite secret and never came out, not a special ops one. Given how many silly things the CIA has done when the US wasn't an Empire, I'd give them at least some of the benefit of the doubt and believe they aren't all RAAARGH I EAT BABIES :p

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2007-11-16 08:46am

MJ12 Commando wrote:I believe Project Sunset was because they were Fed Up with guerillas and whatnot more than them being casually assholish.

And it was a CIA operation which was likely quite secret and never came out, not a special ops one. Given how many silly things the CIA has done when the US wasn't an Empire, I'd give them at least some of the benefit of the doubt and believe they aren't all RAAARGH I EAT BABIES :p

As Batou explains it, it was a terror tactic to try and get the native population to too scared to fight.

The operation was:
-Go into an area befriend the local population.
-Once they are befriended, do something completely horrific to them to try to convince them to give up. In the case of the fucked up veteran who got loose in Japan, skin young women alive in the pattern of a t-shirt and leave their bodies to be found.

What had Batou so pissed was that it wasn't merely a CIA op, but a sanctioned special ops one (Navy, specifically). It did however not see the light of day, though, and Batou found out about it because he was serving in those woods (on the same side as the Americans, in fact) and kept coming across the aftermath, so it was somewhat personal to him.

And frankly, the Americans were willing to nuke Japan because Gouda asked them to and not with a clandestine suitcase nuke, but with one of their nuclear submarines parked right outside their coast..

However, mostly I was being facetious. It's anime, of course the Americans are complete pricks and occasionally randomly psychopathic for inadequately explained reasons. However, in GitS:SAC, it's somewhat true.

MJ12 Commando · Post by **MJ12 Commando** » 2007-11-16 11:57am

Sea Skimmer wrote:What an incredibly pointless thread. If Mogadishu was filled with some sci fi force with better weapons and equipment then AK-47s and T-shirts the whole situation would have been handled completely differently. Instead of a small ranger task force, you’ve have two hundred plus vehicles from the 10th Mountain Division or probably a mechanized division deployed instead rolling into action.

I blame magic act of OP for it. :p

And IIRC, the nuclear strike was because the refugees were pretty much going "RAAARGH REVOLT ZERG RUSH FOR FREEDOM" and the American Empire is a lot more pragmatic about nuclear weapons use than most modern powers. I suppose with the Japanese Miracle around and thus no real long-term effects, a nuclear bomb is just a really big and expensive explosive.

They might be cold-harted motherfuckers, but I can't really say they're baby-eating pricks.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2007-11-16 12:42pm

What software loadout do the Rangers have? I remember one episode where Motoko went into battle without a complete set of targetting programs. I think it was the one where a sniper was reminiscing about his war experiences. She would have killed him the moment they came face to face except she didn't have the program for mid-range shooting.

Also, if it's a sci-fi power, wouldn't they shoot down the Ranger's satellites? They wouldn't be nearly as effective if they're limited to ground level recon and can't download new software as needed.

MJ12 Commando · Post by **MJ12 Commando** » 2007-11-16 01:22pm

Setzer wrote:What software loadout do the Rangers have? I remember one episode where Motoko went into battle without a complete set of targetting programs. I think it was the one where a sniper was reminiscing about his war experiences. She would have killed him the moment they came face to face except she didn't have the program for mid-range shooting.

Also, if it's a sci-fi power, wouldn't they shoot down the Ranger's satellites? They wouldn't be nearly as effective if they're limited to ground level recon and can't download new software as needed.

As Saito said, she had the software. She just bluffed him to the point where he thought he had a chance. As to why she did it, I have no idea. Wanting to capture him alive I suppose.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2007-11-16 02:26pm

Setzer wrote:What software loadout do the Rangers have? I remember one episode where Motoko went into battle without a complete set of targetting programs. I think it was the one where a sniper was reminiscing about his war experiences. She would have killed him the moment they came face to face except she didn't have the program for mid-range shooting.

Also, if it's a sci-fi power, wouldn't they shoot down the Ranger's satellites? They wouldn't be nearly as effective if they're limited to ground level recon and can't download new software as needed.

Actually, what Saito thought she didn't have was the software for shooting down the other guys bullet at mid-ranges, which was a bluff. What she was doing was pretending to be in the process of downloading the software, so Saito would think that he'd have a clear shot at her and he'd pop from his cover. He took the bait and Kusanagi plugged him.

In fact, Saito had successfully managed to fuck up her squad by being an extremely talented sniper and she wanted to take him alive, because she figured out he was a merc and wanted to offer him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2007-11-16 02:39pm

Ah, I see. But how would satellite disruption affect the Ranger's ability to fight?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2007-11-16 04:04pm

Setzer wrote:Ah, I see. But how would satellite disruption affect the Ranger's ability to fight?

Probably the same as for anyone who uses satellites as an asset. It certainly wouldn't stop them from continuing fighting, they just wouldn't have access to their global network.

The question is how exact do their opposite shoot down the American Empire's satellite network if they are replacing African militiamen with their level of competence? Even if they are able to shoot down one satellite, remember that the American Empire in GitS:SAC maintains a massive worldwide spy satellite network that monitors everywhere important at all times (this was utilized in one episode by Section 9). It seems kind of unlikely that some groundforces are going to be able to destroy the American Empire's satellite network. This is why this scenario is kind of dumb, as Sea Skimmer noted.

MJ12 Commando · Post by **MJ12 Commando** » 2007-11-16 04:14pm

It's not the American Empire. It's the US of A, circa 1994, with what assets they had circa 1994, except the Rangers and Deltas get cyberbrains and cyberbodies and the Somalis get transformed by magical dancing panda into some random sci-fi force.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2007-11-20 12:41am

MJ12 Commando wrote:It's not the American Empire. It's the US of A, circa 1994, with what assets they had circa 1994, except the Rangers and Deltas get cyberbrains and cyberbodies and the Somalis get transformed by magical dancing panda into some random sci-fi force.

If you give the US Army Rangers cyberbrains + bodies comparable to the Japanese Self-Defense Army's Rangers, e.g., Batou, then they'll massacre any force with comparable competence to the Somalis, e.g., can't hit anything smaller than a truck without spraying hundreds of bullets in its direction. (Bear in mind, a Black Hawk helicopter is the size of a truck.) It's hard to kill an enemy you can't see, i.e., one with thermal-optical camouflage, and hard to plan ambushes against an enemy with the the communications links that military units use in 'Stand Alone Complex'.

MJ12 Commando · Post by **MJ12 Commando** » 2007-11-20 02:46am

Sidewinder wrote: If you give the US Army Rangers cyberbrains + bodies comparable to the Japanese Self-Defense Army's Rangers, e.g., Batou, then they'll massacre any force with comparable competence to the Somalis, e.g., can't hit anything smaller than a truck without spraying hundreds of bullets in its direction. (Bear in mind, a Black Hawk helicopter is the size of a truck.) It's hard to kill an enemy you can't see, i.e., one with thermal-optical camouflage, and hard to plan ambushes against an enemy with the the communications links that military units use in 'Stand Alone Complex'.

Well, the intended debate is "what equipment and enhancements do the Somalis need (save for competence because that's right out) to do comparably (not) well to how they did back in Gothic Serpent."

Just run with it, I'm aware it's a tad silly.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2007-11-20 09:07am

I kind of wish Section 9 were involved in this.

Tachikoma, *pops out of thermoptic camo in front of a pack of Somali militiamen, waving its manipulators above it's "head" and translated into the native language but with the Tachikoma voice: "OOOOOOOO, I'm a big scary demon! Surrender to me at once! OOOOOOOOO!"

*Somalis freak out and a couple of them fire AKs at the Tachikoma, which plink of his its armor*

Tachikoma: *hurt* "Ahhhh... that wasn't very nice..."

*Somalis explode in a hail of bullets from off screen and Kusanagi appears*

The Major: "TACHIKOMA! Stop fooling around!"

Tachikoma: "Yes, Major! *salutes with manipulator*"