Clone Army "units"

[Hawkwings]

So what is your preferred definition of "unit"? I like to think of it as the smallest group of men + equipment that can perform operations on its own. Or maybe it's like a Marine Expeditionary unit, or an Imperial Guard Regiment. So maybe a "unit" is an Acclamator worth of clones?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You are threatening to up a huge can of worms, including one Traviss, and assorted others.

But I recall Ender saying that it might mean a platoon or equivalent.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

From the Imperial Sourcebook, p 92;

line batallions have four companies including an assault company (heavy weapons company) and an HQ, for a total of 606 troopers out of 810 men. a fully equipped assault company raises these totals to 626 and 828. Line batallions are committed to more ground combats than any other type of unit in the galaxy, as a batallion is the usual minimum Imperial commanders will consider dropping for a surface operation, and line batallions are more common than any other type.

Underlining mine. I don't object to this at all, it seems reasonable enough.
An Acclamator's 16K

clone troops and support personnel

works out at 19.3 batallions, which is either a reinforced battlegroup just shy of five full regiments, or an infantry division with the extra 3.3 batallions' worth absorbed by walkers, gunships, and divisional level attachments- medics, workshops, combat engineers, staff functions.

[Darth Fanboy]

From this site.

unit. [JP 1-02] (DoD, NATO)

l Any military element whose structure is prescribed by competent authority, such as a table of organization and equipment; specifically, part of an organization.

l An organization title of a subdivision of a group in a task force.

l A standard or basic quantity into which an item of supply is divided, issued, or used. In this meaning, also called unit of issue.

l With regard to reserve components of the Armed Forces, denotes a Selected Reserve unit organized, equipped and trained for mobilization to serve on active duty as a unit or to augment or be augmented by another unit. Headquarters and support functions without wartime missions are not considered units.

Karen Travesty prides herself on her ability to write for the military so OBVIOUSLY she must have known about the terminology already...

If to her, unit = 1 soldier, then that will hopefully be shot out of the water with the size and scope of the battles George Lucas wants to include in his new TV shows.

[Aaron]

If Traviss really knew anything about the military she'd know that when a soldier refers to his "unit" it typically refers to the whole fucking thing, IE: 1st Battalion Royal Canadian Regiment or 2 Sigs Squadron. Formations that are a battalion and a reienforced company in size respectivelly. When they say "units" in AOTC I take it to mean battalion because that's what it means in the real world. Especially as this is a massive war, troops are unlikely to be deployed in less than battalion strength unless their Special Ops or they just need a lone company somewhere, in which case you may as well send the entire battalion with it's support equipment.

[Cyborg Stan]

Personally, I think it would've been real awesome if in AotC, upon hearing 3 million 'units' -

Obi-Wan : Soldiers?

Cloner : (Tilting the head oddly... well, odder than usual anyway.) Armies.

[Knife]

Well, for a lower limit, a four man fireteam is a unit. Normally when some one askes 'where you from' in the military, you can give your platoon/company/battelion or perhaps regiment.

Weapons Platoon, I Co, 3rdBn 5thMar for example. However a more common one was just the Bn and Regiment. 3/5.

[fnord]

What's the smallest group of troops that counts as a "formation"? A battalion? Or does it vary by the force involved? Ie, a battalion (since I seem to be on a roll) might be a formation in the Royal Dutch Marines but not one in the US Army?

Also, what would be the smallest troop grouping expected to stand on its own in the line of battle? (If it ain't a division, then I'll need to rewrite my Traveller fanfic).

[(name here)]

Squad is the minimum possibility, although soldiers would be possible if it weren't such a small figure. minimum figure that makes any sense: 12million. probably more, unit might refer to platoon or line battalion.

[Mange]

From this site.

unit. [JP 1-02] (DoD, NATO)

l Any military element whose structure is prescribed by competent authority, such as a table of organization and equipment; specifically, part of an organization.

l An organization title of a subdivision of a group in a task force.

l A standard or basic quantity into which an item of supply is divided, issued, or used. In this meaning, also called unit of issue.

l With regard to reserve components of the Armed Forces, denotes a Selected Reserve unit organized, equipped and trained for mobilization to serve on active duty as a unit or to augment or be augmented by another unit. Headquarters and support functions without wartime missions are not considered units.

Karen Travesty prides herself on her ability to write for the military so OBVIOUSLY she must have known about the terminology already...

If to her, unit = 1 soldier, then that will hopefully be shot out of the water with the size and scope of the battles George Lucas wants to include in his new TV shows.

In all fairness, the 1 unit = 1 soldier doesn't originate from Karen Traviss, but from the AOTC novelization (by R.A. Salvatore). However, as someone pointed out in an earlier thread (I believe it was VT-16), when Mace Windu steps out of the gunship and a clone commander informs him that there are "five special commando units awaiting your orders", we see a good deal more than five individual clone soldiers following his lead. The screenplay doesn't lend credence to the idea either.

My preferred unit, and which makes the most sense IMHO, would be a battalion (the true size which can be seen at the end of AOTC, 624 men per battalion and not the 576 men per battalion which Traviss and Kaufman grabbed out of thin air in Insider #84).

[Knife]

Squad is the minimum possibility, although soldiers would be possible if it weren't such a small figure. minimum figure that makes any sense: 12million. probably more, unit might refer to platoon or line battalion.

Gah, fireteam. Yeesh, why do I even bother typing out these things.

[Mange]

Perhaps I should add as a side-note that my gut feeling (which is far from revolutionary I admit) is that George Lucas consciously chose a slightly ambiguous term to describe the size of the GAR. The screenplay does differentiate between 'items' (as used by Lama Su to describe the individual clones at the parade ground on Kamino) and 'units'.

[Repoman]

If Traviss really knew anything about the military she'd know that when a soldier refers to his "unit" it typically refers to the whole fucking thing, IE: 1st Battalion Royal Canadian Regiment or 2 Sigs Squadron. Formations that are a battalion and a reienforced company in size respectivelly. When they say "units" in AOTC I take it to mean battalion because that's what it means in the real world.

This is true. WHenever a soldier is asked what "unit" he is in, he or she will usually respond with the battalion level answer.

However, if you are assigned to a detachable support company, you would typically respond with your company designation and assigned home base (i.e. 103 Chemical company, Ft. Bragg).

It is also worth noting that the operations shops (S-3, G-3, whatever) will refer to detached, smaller than company-level elements as "units".

[Cykeisme]

Traviss thinking that a "unit" referred to one soldier, rather than one regiment/battallion, seems to suggest a greater familiarity with computer strategy games than with real-life militaries.

If Traviss really knew anything about the military she'd know that when a soldier refers to his "unit" it typically refers to the whole fucking thing

When a soldier refers to his unit he refers to the thing he fucks with.. makes sense.
Sorry, couldn't help.

[NecronLord]

When I saw the film, I too got the impression that 'unit' was meant to show the Kaminoan distance from individuals, and that they were reffering to individuals. It is certainly strange that she doesn't say "Two hundred thousand regiments ready..."

But item is even more dehumanising, and thus better.

[Cykeisme]

It is certainly strange that she doesn't say "Two hundred thousand regiments ready..."

If she was in fact referring to individual clones, it is more strange that she doesn't simply say "..two hundred thousand clones ready..."

When raising an military force, one would assume that a ready "unit" refers to a military unit.

[PainRack]

It is certainly strange that she doesn't say "Two hundred thousand regiments ready..."

If she was in fact referring to individual clones, it is more strange that she doesn't simply say "..two hundred thousand clones ready..."

When raising an military force, one would assume that a ready "unit" refers to a military unit.

The novelisation makes it clear that from Obiwan POV, this made the cloners even more inhumane as they were referring to people as nothing more than goods.

[CaptJodan]

This is true. WHenever a soldier is asked what "unit" he is in, he or she will usually respond with the battalion level answer.

I always assumed, though perhaps with very little evidence, that units might refer to Battalion as well. I base it on Lama Su's last comment to Obi-Wan.

LAMA SU: Tell your Council the first battalions are ready.
And remind them that if they need more troops, we will need
time to grow them.

Considering he was told some units were already avaliable, I just put these two together. Of course, as I said, there's no real connection other than the fact that 200,000 "units" are "ready" and the first "battalions" are ready.